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2017 JOS Wk 12 Bike Thread - Hold the Line

scott dinhoferscott dinhofer
in General Training Discussions

Here we are week 12!

the work is definitely getting hard. I think I speak for everyone that we are all feeling the effects of 12 weeks of hard work...

For me, this means re-entering the OS after having a few weeks of HIM & PR 70.3, I am truly looking at the Tuesday wko with fear
Z4 for 10,15 + 18 mins.. Will be advancing a day to get it done before the last ski trip of the year. 

This is the time to dig in deep and hold the line. Only 4 weeks of OS training left and often we see people tail off into IM blocks at this point, so let's all Hold the line and keep the mojo flowing in the forums!

Comments

  • Gordon CherwoniakGordon Cherwoniak
    Well I thought the gorilla was just going to do a drive by on me today.  Not even worth his time to stop and beat me down.  It turned out better than I thought.

    10' 16' then fell apart on the last one with a hip flexor issue that I had to stretch out. 2.5' 6.5' 5' for the last set.  .98-1.0 for all the work.

    https://www.strava.com/activities/917855097http://
  • Francis PicardFrancis Picard
    Did the ftp ride last night as I always do on Monday night.

    Alot of sweat on the floor hah.. that was brutal but really like how it ended!

    https://www.strava.com/activities/917400529
  • Shaughn SimmonsShaughn Simmons
    @Gordon Cherwoniak - amazingly strong work on that round!

    @Francis Picard - HUGE work man!  80' of focused muscle busting!

    SS
  • scott dinhoferscott dinhofer
    legs still carrying fatigue from IMPR & the 82 mile HoH ride on saturday... did 10'+15' @ the bottom of Z4
    https://www.strava.com/activities/917772130

  • Jeff KaneJeff Kane
    Good ride this am 3x13'@FTP (257) .97,1.0,1.0. Short brick run after. Beginning to taper the run a bit in preparation for a 1/2 Mary on the 8th. Anybody do or have any thoughts on bike streaks? I'll be closing out my run streak next week at 150 days and am happy with the gains. Now I want to shift the focus to the bike. I was thinking about dropping in some 30 min VO2/FTP sets in a few times additional a week for about 30 minutes each session. Worth it or not?
  • William JenksWilliam Jenks
    Because I am math-challenged, I just looked at the assignment of 10/15/18 and figured it was easier to remember one number at the end of the day:  15/15/15.  ;-)   This was a really good workout. It was the right amount of physically and mentally hard, which is to say, challenging but not crazy.  I knew in the 2nd interval, I would make the 3rd, but during the 3rd I really had to focus for the lat half.  All intervals at 1.01 IF.

    Cut short the run, but did get on my legs.
  • Doug JohnsonDoug Johnson
    @Jeff Kane my initial thoughts are that if you were to add in "some 30 min VO2/FTP sets in a few times additional a week for about 30 minutes each session." you are running a risk of overtraining or creating a lot of fatigue that will negatively impact other areas of training.  If you think about what run durability is... adding a couple short runs a week at an easy or tick-faster-than-easy pace, you aren't creating a tremendous amount of fatigue.  The equivalent paces/zones in cycling would probably be Z2ish.  I'm not sure a couple extra 30-minute sessions a week at Z2 would produce significant results.  However, i'm no expert.  Might be a good question to put in your micro/macro thread or throw out to the team in one of the general training forums to get input from a bunch of people.  Way to nail that ride today!

    @Gordon Cherwoniak @Francis Picard @Scott Dinhofer (for some reason I can't tag you) great work on those rides!

    I rode for 85' today as WU, 3X10'(3') @.98, .98, 1.03 & 10'(2')15' @ .83, .87  I took yesterday completely off as a rest day and the ride felt great as a result.  https://www.strava.com/activities/918800320
  • Gordon CherwoniakGordon Cherwoniak
    @Jeff Kane I'm with Doug the Vo2 work is for raising the roof and too much high intensity could be detrimental.  Now if you have a specific issues with your ceiling (FTP) bumping in to your roof (Vo2) then it might be useful to do some extra work here.  There is a bike focus with I have not loaded in quite awhile.  If I recall we don't bike more that 4-5 times in those blocks.  Your 5' test compared to the 20' test might give an indication of where you might need to focus.  An old metric, not sure we still use is 1.20.  If your 5' test is below 1.18 you could use some Vo2 work otherwise you would be better served doing some extra FTP work.  As Doug mentioned this would be a good question in the forums for all and the coaches. 

    @Francis Picard Nice comeback on this ride, strong work
    @Scott Dinhofer Working your way back nicely.
    @Doug Johnson Rest days are great. Building through the sets nicely.

    Just a shout out to anyone still posting, lurking or following.  We are getting to the end of the OS when people tend to drop off.  Keep engaging, I've noticed the list of active people is dropping. 
  • scott dinhoferscott dinhofer
    Jeff Kane said:
     I was thinking about dropping in some 30 min VO2/FTP sets in a few times additional a week for about 30 minutes each session. Worth it or not?
    see my comments on your other thread on this. Coach P applauded my "junk miles" on rides with my daughter, GF, etc... These were very low output rides, also some MTB park sessions with the boys a few hours after a 5 or 6 ride were deemed great as well.. 
    per @Doug Johnson & @Gordon Cherwoniak comments above, any real interval stuff will be counterproductive to your race day self.. 
  • Paul CurtinPaul Curtin
    edited March 29, 2017 3:10PM
    @Gordon Cherwoniak - I'm still here ... postlurkowing with the gang!  Although I've decided to end the OS on April 6; planning to run a half-mary to test run fitness.  Lots of run changes since October - it will be an interesting test.  After that it will be a down week to recharge the body.

    @Jeff Kane - agree with Gordon's and Doug's points.  You're doing Louisville if I recall?  When you transition into the GF, Half, and/or Full plans you can always swap out a planned bike for a VO2 set.  Another option to boost bike fitness would be to do a mega-bike weekend ... something like 2 hours Friday, 4 hours Saturday, 3 hours Sunday ... maybe target a mid-April weekend.

    @Doug Johnson - you sir have monster power.  Impressive.  @Scott Dinhofer is indeed tagable: put the full name in double quotes and it should show up.
  • Paul CurtinPaul Curtin
    Traveled to Florida this morning for a few days of R&R.  Need to find a good pool.  Had a good Z4 session last evening:

    https://www.strava.com/activities/918710385
  • scott dinhoferscott dinhofer
    trying to get back at it... gotta geet running again, but managed the Intermediate 30/30s today.. 
    https://www.strava.com/activities/920570578

  • Shaughn SimmonsShaughn Simmons
    Some great wisdom and great examples (walking the talk) floating around here.  Hope everyone is listening and taking notes.

    Yesterday I gave myself 3X11' at 1.0.  Probably the most difficult 3 X 11' I can remember just because of the run fatigue from the prior day.   Over extended on the run and paid for it on the bike.....anybody see the theme throwing through this thread?

    https://www.strava.com/activities/919251611

    Keep leading all!

    SS
  • Trish MarshallTrish Marshall
    Hello all again...I'm not dead I swear!  Life has been kooky and I've been getting in the work.  Tuesdays 3x13 was tough and doable.  Middle 13 really sucked, but got them all in and the tempo to boot.  Legs are still quite comfy on the bricks because someone is running based on her vdot and not her ego. :blush:  I ran a solid half mary last Sunday at my current Vdot, so pleased that my long paces square up with my "faster" pace of a 5k.  Still not a pr by any stretch, but I'm totally good with that.  Steady Eddy is the name of the game for me this year.  
    Heading to the basement to do the 30"/30"s and brick on the mill as we have a lovely hail/rainy day here in the Mitten.  
  • Francis PicardFrancis Picard
    Did yesterday the 4X4' @ vo2, was ruff but made it between 2 conf call.

    https://www.strava.com/activities/919709169

    didnt try to overkill the intervals like last week but went over targets
  • Jeff KaneJeff Kane
    KNOW YOUR BODY!!!
    With the accumulation of work from the OS (NOV and JAN) non stop, the run streak, tighten up of the diet, and a few late nights, I had a really hard day yesterday. COuldn't keep my eyes open driving home and cranky. I knew I was on the razors edge of falling into the zone of overtraining and missing the opportunity of the super-compensation phase. With a 1/2 Mary next Saturday I had to call an audible. I slept in this morning and did a short run with the pup. Taught a morning workshop and knocked off the rest of the day, had a hard time the last 20 minutes of my drive home!!!! Took an 1:45 minute nap, glorious, then jumped on the trainer and nailed today's VO2 session. Saw some numbers over the last 4 intervals that had me smiling. It will be at least an 8 hour night of sleep tonight, easy run in the morning with the pup again and all will be good. My goal over the next 8 days is to really hit the bike wko's and reduce the run intensity/volume, except my group run on Sunday.
    All this to say, if you really know your body and you can bring it to the edge and not fall off, good things will happen!!! 
  • William JenksWilliam Jenks
    Taking (yet another!) detour for my Saturday ride....

    I'm doing a 65 mile team time trial on gravel (supposedly roughly 4 hours)
    Have I ever done a team time trial? No
    Have I ever ridden much on gravel? No
    Do I own a gravel ready bike? No
    Have I ridden much longer than 2 hours in the last couple months? No

    Am I borrowing a bike, spd pedals and planning on having a blast?  Yes!

    It's good when you've learned to live a little even if you ARE following a plan.  :-)

  • Doug JohnsonDoug Johnson
    Way to get that work done everyone!

    @Paul Curtin enjoy Florida!  It's snowing in NY right now :(

    Thursday ride done.  2X10'(4') at FTP sandwiched between a couple ABP intervals.  Challenging but doable.  Followed it up with a nice brick.  https://www.strava.com/activities/921374448/overview
  • Doug JohnsonDoug Johnson
    @William Jenks that sounds like fun, let us know how it goes!
    @Jeff Kane that's a long time to go full blast.  Smart move today.

  • Gordon CherwoniakGordon Cherwoniak
    @Paul Curtin Enjoy Florida
    @Shaughn Simmons Nice work as the OS fatigue mounts.
    @Trish Marshall Great work on the half mary and keeping the running in check.  I know I'm a legend in my own mind and have to keep myself in check all the time.
    @Jeff Kane Smart move with the extra recovery
    @William Jenks It's all about doing cool sh!t with your fitness, enjoy!
    @Doug Johnson Nice amount of work.

    Vo2 done.  110+ for all 2X(6X1)(1')).  Feeling pretty good lately. Another swim tomorrow which has been a train wreck so far.  I'm getting some drop outs of data.  Not sure if this is my power tap or the 310XT.  I just recently changed the power tap batteries and it was better for a couple weeks.  Not sure what's happening. 

    https://www.strava.com/activities/921513146
  • Phil MillsPhil Mills
    Inspired by the amount of quality work you all are putting in this late in the OS.  I used some of that to get some bike work done last night.  First bike wko in over a week as I have not been able to motivate myself out of bed at 4 am this entire week.  

    After completing the crampfest that finished this wko, I basked in the feeling of getting some serious work in. 

    I decided to combine part of Tuesday's missed wko into Thursday's VO2 sets.  The ftp sets went off well, though calf cramping reared its uglyness during the last 15".  Surprisingly, they didn't roll into the VO2 sets. 

    87'
    2x10' @ .96 & .98
    16x1' @ 1.20-1.25

    https://www.strava.com/activities/921631164
  • Francis PicardFrancis Picard
    did the Saturday ride this morning

    Went well, feeling the intervals are "easier" since 2 weeks, I guess that means a potential bump in the FTP in 2 weeks

    https://www.strava.com/activities/922160252
  • Jeff KaneJeff Kane
    Repeated the Tuesday wko. Good FTP session backed up with a short brick. 9 hours of great sleep and some strong recovery has me off the razors edge. 
  • Gordon CherwoniakGordon Cherwoniak
    @Phil Mills Tough workout combining the two.
    @Francis Picard Time for a FTP bump, I'm finally coming around again too.

    2X20 1.01;1,01 then 2X20 1X15@.852X.86.  I felt really good during this workout 125' @.88 with 162 TSS.  Looking to push this up a little further next Saturday.  I can definitely feel the legs sitting here after this workout.

    https://www.strava.com/activities/923643570

  • David HowardDavid Howard

    @Jeff Kane Looking at the research (I don't have the references off hand -sorry)...but the most Applicable has seen a real validation to most of the EN training principles of Hard@ Hard and EZ @ EZ....   Most notably has been the superior results from "Polar" training = not so much middle intensity.  The review of Pros WKOs and results of several studies I recall roughly suggest a 80/20 slit based on Time at intensity. Where 20 % is SIGNIFICANTLY below FTP (at Bellow VT1) and 20% at just below trough significantly above FTP Z4-5+.  So.....if your FTP work +VO2 work is 20% then the "ADDED time" should be at ...yes... low intensity.  Z3 is likely to high in its cost to system stress (cortisol etc).  Z3 IS important for RACE Specific training for Pace and mental training ...likely Not so valuable/likely costly in early season in being fresh enough to do the Quality Higher intensity work. For the LOW intensity work to be beneficial its the LONG and SLOW...[not noodling... roughly Z2 (Probably the Bike version of the Runs TRP pace) At that effort you'll stimulate the maximal Aerobic positive changes at minimal metabolic cost.  (for me MHR180 = "best" @ HR 135-145ish -strong "ish" LOL)

    Another [somewhat counter intuitive] option is adding Pure strength work at the OS-into IM/HIM block  Low rep1-3/High weight 90+% 1RM/long recovery3+min per set and Not to failure....[classic power lifts]  done the day After the longer WKOs (ie MON) will likely have the least detriment to downstream WKOs (soreness) and can counteract (in theory) some of the catabolic effects from the long stuff done over weekend.  A single full body Power lift day can be sufficient  with follow on "weight training" done with dynamic/functional movements at least 3 days later (can also be done as HIIT).... However these may sap some zip out of follow on workouts and failure sets should be avoided.

    Just my 2cents....  ;)


    OK  ...now  lets se how much I am a "do as I say not as I do.." ....


  • David HowardDavid Howard

    Still need the SAT big ride -swaped with SUN.....

    But this week still suffering Bronchitis fall out... after 4 days of 0 WKOs

    MON: RealRides"Power": 10'progWU; 2x4x30"MAX/30"EZ(3)3x1'MAX/'EZ;2x90"Z5Q30"up to max(90")

    https://www.strava.com/activities/917439717       Meh.....  use as Alt to the 30/30 EN plan

    WED: Not quite the plan...But still managed 2x10'(5')Z4;10'LT+5w. Gassed

    https://www.strava.com/activities/920238065

    Just really hard to hold watts...not a HR issue or even a ability to make power...just not in me to hold #s....truncated the sets and just pushed through for at least 3x 10.   Dim bulb energy.

    So....today 4 x15? yea....OK well see!  May Stair Step with 1st a little lower etc. last PWR "test from Outdoor intervals showed a BIG jump...Ive cut off 15w from those #s for "indoor FTP"...about right for historic differences....but last few hard to hold the Z4 stuff....I'm hoping its due to being sick.....

    @Gordon C.  2X20 1.01;1,01 then 2X20 1X15@.852X.86..."... push it (next time)..." = ANAMAL

  • Gordon CherwoniakGordon Cherwoniak
    edited April 2, 2017 7:40PM
    @David Howard I had the same Dim bulb energy for a couple weeks.  Smart approach to shorten the workouts and get in the work you can.  Also remember it's 95-100 and the 95 is totally acceptable.  I even dropped one bike workout to help with my recovery.  As for my most recent workout, things are coming around again and with a 2 week transition/swim camp planned after the JOS I figure I can push it a little extra going in to that.

    @Shaughn Simmons I saw your post last week on pushing up my Saturday ride TSS and not just focusing on one ride during the week.  I've been watching my weekly monthly TSS more closely this year.  Looking for some consistency in the OS - Jan 631 (did a few things before the OS but was not really tracking plus really light running); Feb 1313; Mar 1284.  The last 6 weeks TSS has seen that wk 8-9 dip but looks as follows wk 7 323 TSS; wk8 247;wk9 212;wk 10 338; wk11 340;wk 12 444.  I also have not included the swim TSS in weeks 11 and 12 which I should start doing an estimate for. 
  • Shaughn SimmonsShaughn Simmons
    @Gordon Cherwoniak - fantastic work man posting that, laying it out there and making progress!  Looks like the last 4 weeks have been increasing steadily with and big increase in week 12 over week 11.  Be careful with a 30% week over week jump and the fatigue hole you can dig.  Anything over a 10% week over week jump starts to become tricky and risky as our bodies just can't adapt that fast and they will revolt in the form of sickness or injury.


    Sat I did a 2X16' @ 1.0  and shut the ride down at 90' due to some health issues.  Felt a little better today and joined the EN Zwift ABP ride that started at 8:00 a.m. CST: https://www.strava.com/activities/925747482

    Survived.....hoping to feel even better by tomorrow.

    Great week all you animals posting and setting the bar HIGH!

  • William JenksWilliam Jenks
    So Saturday was the race i mentioned.

    All i can say is that it was totally fun.  We finished 100k in just about 4:00 even, including a 10-12 minute T0.  :-)  They had a mandatory check in at the half way, where you could get stuff from your own team "special needs bag".  Turned out there were a couple of triathletes on our team and we were both done and ready to go rather quickly, but hte cyclists were - shall we say - more leisurely.  ;-)

    Anyway, I probably pulled more than my share, maybe because i'm more used to solo riding...but it was great.  I wish I had a PM with me, because then I'd have known what I was doing, but I think I spent a LOT of time in my 85-90% region because when I was done I felt totally spent...more than off a HIM bike ride.  Sure as hell glad there was no run after.  Legs went home pretty much jello.

    I was very lucky in that I could get a good fit on the borrowed bike and was totally comfortable on it.
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