Heart Rate Analysis Discussion
Intent - Anything and Everything HR Bike or Run
I recently went over my races from the last 6 months and correlated HR to time/distance etc. The reason I did this was I finally had enough HR data to review/compare, very similar to reviewing bike power race to race, over different time frames, or just year to year volume. So at the very least I hope that I motivate some of you to review HR data, power data, year over year volume etc. While I was going through the data I came up with the list below for discussion. I will keep my initial data and comments relative to run only but feel free to discuss bike HR as well.
1. Analyzing Data
2. Training/Racing w/HR
3. Min HR vs. Max HR vs. Threshold
4. HRV or Heart rate variablity
5. Maffetone or similar training
6. Performance Management Chart and/or threshold HR vs. threshold power
7. Heart Rate Variables- heat, cold, humidity, caffeine, overtrained vs. tapered or undertrained etc.
Races last 6 months listed from shortest to longest with time, avg hr , distance, and short description
TIME AVG HR Distance Notes/Conditions
00:43:00 179 10k flat, very hot , Tucson Aircraft Boneyard
00:54:00 173 7.4m very hilly , hot , Sabino Canyon up/down on road
01:21:00 169 10m hilly , cool , Catalina trail race
01:30:00 164 HM flat, cool , Local HM was a 1/2 mile short
03:18:00 158 M downhill to flat, cool , Tucson Marathon
03:35:00 146 IMMD- M flat, cool/rainy , IMMD run after no swim short bike
08:35:00 143 52m hilly, hot , UMFL Day 3 run
Every single race above was done at 100% RPE for the distance. Never looked at HR at any point during any of the races. There is a lot of variables that effect HR, some listed in the notes/conditions but what really blew me away was the consistent relativity of avg hr vs time (IOW as time increased avg HR decreased) you could chart those numbers and it would look just like a power curve chart... I think our bodies are much smarter than we think they are... The only slight anomaly would be the 10k being a touch high but explainable from the extreme heat that day.
Few comments and questions about some of my HR thoughts.
1. Analyzing Data - collect , review , monitor.... what else can we actually do with it?
2. Training/Racing w/HR - For racing I am strongly against looking at HR as I think it becomes a limiter, I know many like to use it as a limiter similar to power early on in a race, but I think it differs from power in that if my HR is high I know it, its not accidentally high and easy RPE like power can sometimes be , and at the end of the race trying to raise your HR like a whip is very difficult and RPE will always prevail... For training I only like to look at it after the fact to confirm my RPE and how my body was reacting to the stress of the session...
Love to hear stories of how everyone actually uses HR in training and racing or like me after the fact?
3. Min HR vs. Max HR - again not sure what to do with these other than know what they are and track them overtime , that may forewarn of something really wrong. I have found year after year mine are pretty much the same with min HR in the high40's to low 50's and max HR around 190ish and yes I pushed a few times to find out. Does everyone know their min and max HR? What do you do with it?
4. HRV or Heart Rate Variability - I have tracked this on 2 separate occasions for several months each time. Both times I was being told I was overtrained when tapered and fully rested when absolutely at my limits of fatigue. Personally I have no belief in HRV. Anybody swear by it?
5. Maffetone or Similar training - There has been lots of maffetone discussion here and on EN. While I am not a true maffetone disciple I do strongly believe in making my easy easy and the hard hard, add to that my belief of how many hard miles I can do per week and it almost makes my running look maffetonish if you will. Out of a 30 mile week I may have only 3-6 miles done hard which leaves 24-27 easy, which is 80/20 or 90/10...Interestingly I believe this type of training works for my run but not the bike at least for me... Anyone using or believe in the maffetone system or training methods?
6. Performance Management Chart vs. threshold power/pace/HR - The 54 min race above was a good confirmation of my PMC settings since it was closest to one hour... The race HR was 173 and I have my threshold HR set at 172... In a addition to this TP gave me a 90 TSS and IF .95 for the 54 minutes , if you add the remaining 10% to that to get to 1hr its a TSS of 100 or just under.... Correlating and confirming these settings in your PMC is important if you want a correct PMC...
Does everyone know if their settings are correct?
7. Heart Rate Variables- we all know that HR is how your body is reacting to the work being performed. but there are many things that will affect it, like weather, caffeine, rest or fatigue. I have found that after a solid month of hard work my avg HR goes down a little for the same work performed (more so on the bike than the run) and we always say this is fitness. I tend to disagree and call it fatigue. Why? because I also find after rest or taper my HR will be higher for the same work performed... I call that my body is rested... So I have a little pet peeve about collecting all this HR dat during extreme IM training in a very fatigued state, to later be applied on Race Day in a tapered rested state?
Open for discussion? Additions? Thoughts?
I recently went over my races from the last 6 months and correlated HR to time/distance etc. The reason I did this was I finally had enough HR data to review/compare, very similar to reviewing bike power race to race, over different time frames, or just year to year volume. So at the very least I hope that I motivate some of you to review HR data, power data, year over year volume etc. While I was going through the data I came up with the list below for discussion. I will keep my initial data and comments relative to run only but feel free to discuss bike HR as well.
1. Analyzing Data
2. Training/Racing w/HR
3. Min HR vs. Max HR vs. Threshold
4. HRV or Heart rate variablity
5. Maffetone or similar training
6. Performance Management Chart and/or threshold HR vs. threshold power
7. Heart Rate Variables- heat, cold, humidity, caffeine, overtrained vs. tapered or undertrained etc.
Races last 6 months listed from shortest to longest with time, avg hr , distance, and short description
TIME AVG HR Distance Notes/Conditions
00:43:00 179 10k flat, very hot , Tucson Aircraft Boneyard
00:54:00 173 7.4m very hilly , hot , Sabino Canyon up/down on road
01:21:00 169 10m hilly , cool , Catalina trail race
01:30:00 164 HM flat, cool , Local HM was a 1/2 mile short
03:18:00 158 M downhill to flat, cool , Tucson Marathon
03:35:00 146 IMMD- M flat, cool/rainy , IMMD run after no swim short bike
08:35:00 143 52m hilly, hot , UMFL Day 3 run
Every single race above was done at 100% RPE for the distance. Never looked at HR at any point during any of the races. There is a lot of variables that effect HR, some listed in the notes/conditions but what really blew me away was the consistent relativity of avg hr vs time (IOW as time increased avg HR decreased) you could chart those numbers and it would look just like a power curve chart... I think our bodies are much smarter than we think they are... The only slight anomaly would be the 10k being a touch high but explainable from the extreme heat that day.
Few comments and questions about some of my HR thoughts.
1. Analyzing Data - collect , review , monitor.... what else can we actually do with it?
2. Training/Racing w/HR - For racing I am strongly against looking at HR as I think it becomes a limiter, I know many like to use it as a limiter similar to power early on in a race, but I think it differs from power in that if my HR is high I know it, its not accidentally high and easy RPE like power can sometimes be , and at the end of the race trying to raise your HR like a whip is very difficult and RPE will always prevail... For training I only like to look at it after the fact to confirm my RPE and how my body was reacting to the stress of the session...
Love to hear stories of how everyone actually uses HR in training and racing or like me after the fact?
3. Min HR vs. Max HR - again not sure what to do with these other than know what they are and track them overtime , that may forewarn of something really wrong. I have found year after year mine are pretty much the same with min HR in the high40's to low 50's and max HR around 190ish and yes I pushed a few times to find out. Does everyone know their min and max HR? What do you do with it?
4. HRV or Heart Rate Variability - I have tracked this on 2 separate occasions for several months each time. Both times I was being told I was overtrained when tapered and fully rested when absolutely at my limits of fatigue. Personally I have no belief in HRV. Anybody swear by it?
5. Maffetone or Similar training - There has been lots of maffetone discussion here and on EN. While I am not a true maffetone disciple I do strongly believe in making my easy easy and the hard hard, add to that my belief of how many hard miles I can do per week and it almost makes my running look maffetonish if you will. Out of a 30 mile week I may have only 3-6 miles done hard which leaves 24-27 easy, which is 80/20 or 90/10...Interestingly I believe this type of training works for my run but not the bike at least for me... Anyone using or believe in the maffetone system or training methods?
6. Performance Management Chart vs. threshold power/pace/HR - The 54 min race above was a good confirmation of my PMC settings since it was closest to one hour... The race HR was 173 and I have my threshold HR set at 172... In a addition to this TP gave me a 90 TSS and IF .95 for the 54 minutes , if you add the remaining 10% to that to get to 1hr its a TSS of 100 or just under.... Correlating and confirming these settings in your PMC is important if you want a correct PMC...
Does everyone know if their settings are correct?
7. Heart Rate Variables- we all know that HR is how your body is reacting to the work being performed. but there are many things that will affect it, like weather, caffeine, rest or fatigue. I have found that after a solid month of hard work my avg HR goes down a little for the same work performed (more so on the bike than the run) and we always say this is fitness. I tend to disagree and call it fatigue. Why? because I also find after rest or taper my HR will be higher for the same work performed... I call that my body is rested... So I have a little pet peeve about collecting all this HR dat during extreme IM training in a very fatigued state, to later be applied on Race Day in a tapered rested state?
Open for discussion? Additions? Thoughts?
2
Comments
There's so much good stuff in this post, I can only respond for now with one push back, on the last topic (#7). You question the accuracy of commonly accepted belief that a slower heart rate for the same workout as training progresses is a sign of increasing fitness by noting it might also be a sign of increasing fatigue. That's hard to accept. I just don't see how a lower HR for, say, a 6 minute run interval @ 10K pace in August compared to June is a sign of fatigue. I see it as a sign of increasing fitness specifically in the heart itself. The heart is a muscle, albeit not under conscious control. As it's asked to work harder, it will adapt, in part by growing. The larger the heart, the more volume of blood pumped out per each beat. The more blood for each beat, the slower the hear has to beat in order to supply the same amount of oxygen to the muscles for a given quantum of work.
Here's hoping others can chime in, this would be a good conversation.
For HRV, I've tracked it before, gave up and have been tracking it again. I'm about to drop it for good, I think. As noted on other threads, it bounces around a lot for me, it tends to lag hard workouts by a few days and in general, I just don't feel I can trust it to give good guidance. Today it told me I should feel miserable. I ignored it, went out for a 4-hour bike ride and a 3-mile run. Felt great and I'm glad I did it.
For PMC, I feel really good about run and bike numbers. Swim and other data, not so much. I think that PMC does a really good job of capturing exercise stress but not other things. The missing link in PMC has me looking for a total body stress metric of some sorts. Something that captures sleep, work stress, alcohol, caffeine, and other day-to-day stuff.
My current thoughts are that resting HR and HRV should be the missing link. If RHR is climbing and HRV falling, it would indicate overall stress and the need to step back from the abyss. I'm finding these metrics are just not enough.
I think this is why I'm a data and gadget junkie; always looking for the missing piece of information that can have me push to the brink, but not over. The missing piece is just not here yet - but that doesn't stop me from looking for it!
Dang Tim, quite the range of topics … all very good ones
HRV can be a measure of fatigue, but I don’t see where it leads to actionable intelligence for endurance athletes. Tim’s HRV data points suggested actions that were just plain wrong. Maybe HRV is better suited for sports other than triathlon
Tom – perhaps that missing link is a purely subjective element. My body tells me when to cut back; though I don’t always know how to listen. For me an even better gauge is my wife Mo: she just knows when things are off and tells me; she’s been right every time
Regarding point 5 on the Maffetone approach: started following something similar since November; almost all runs at very low heart rate; no speed work whatsoever until late in the OutSeason; excellent results so far with this plan
For example:
https://elitehrv.com/olympic-training-elite-endurance-plews-and-prof-updated/
https://elitehrv.com/improving-hrv-data-interpretation-coefficient-variation/
https://elitehrv.com/balance-elite-performance-health-alex-fergus
here is my morning seated HRV report from today - (I am 65 and in week 16 of 70.3 advanced plan and did a hard - for me - 2 hour run yesturday
my report below says ok to train hard today and my morning hr was ok too @ 38 (usually 34-38) but I felt tired this AM so despite this report I opted for a recovery day with a 90 min easy ride and maybe swim in the gulf later today
i feel it is better to be conservative since I am planning a 3 hour ride and 60 min brick run tomorrow
my seated CV (HRV coefficient of variation) has been tracking in the 3.1% range with daily HRV ranging as showing below which to me indicates I am doing good job of absorbing my training, which also seems supported by my monthly and weekly insight reports below:
The daily seated readings above seem to track my training
Daily workouts (after the morning reading)
sat - 3 hour ride/hour z2/z3 brick run
sun - 6 x 500 scy pool swim
monday - run intervals - 4 x 1 mile z3/z4
tues - bike ftp - 4 x 12 min @ ftp
wed - 2.4 mile wetsuit swim in gulf
thurs - 13.1 mile run on beach and road
fri - recovery ride - Ave hr <94, Ave cadence - 107
I also take a morning ECG using the Alivecor Kardia app before training to be sure its Klean
With regard to point 3, I do know my min and max HR now (at 51) but didn't know it in my twenties. Like Tim, my max is about 195 which I occasionally reach. Usually I hit this HR at the end of a 30 second all out bike sprint after riding hard before that for at least 20 minutes. I think the average max HR for a 50+ person is about 170. I think it's a good sign that my max HR for my age seems high. I like to kid myself that based on my HR max, I'm actually younger. I don't know if this higher max helps with short sprints or not. I am currently much better at sprints compared to endurance.
With regard to MAF. When I started running again a few years ago, I did MAF for about a year. I think it helped Me not get injured. While I saw improvement, I didn't see the massive improvements I've see since joining EN last November. Last year my 135 hr pace was about 11/mile. Now it's 8:45-9/mile at the same HR. I think the very hard biking and swimming has really helped. I definitely think this lower HR is a sign of better fitness.
My threshold HR has also increased alot. I attribute this to the harder cross training scenario the training plans call for. When I feel fatigued, I will do a scheduled run at MAF instead of a higher zone to at least get the miles in. From all that I've read it appears that MAF type running should be the bulk of the running.
For the PMC, I think it's critical to keep the numbers up to date if you truly want to see if you are improving. In my limited experience, the threshold numbers seem very close to reality. I really like the data from the PMC. I have found that it provides me with some concrete data to see how hard I'm pushing myself. In my limited experience, I have found it takes longer to increase my CTL the higher it goes. I made it to 120 for IM Texas training (first IM) but was stuck around 110-120 for much longer than I expected. I thought it would keep linearly increasing. Makes me really appreciate the work it must take to reach the 150s and higher.
Like @arnold schmidt I also use the iPhone app eliteHRV. I look at the data but just as a reference point as it does seem to lag workouts. It does seem better with the latest update so we will see. I would be surprised if eliteHRV didn't at least show a lower level readiness value a couple days after hard training.
I'm looking forward to seeing how these data actually resemble and line up against training reality.
I have just ordered my Stryd running power meter and have been reading the provided free ebook "The Art of Running". The authors claims that FTP = 0.072*15*(Max heart rate/min heart rate).
Now if this is correct (and there appears to be reasonable conceptual and experimental support for the proposition), then I would expect some changes in max and min heart rates as a result of a solid block of training — I am assuming FTP responds to a solid block of training.
So maybe we experience a boost to FTP as a result of a solid training block, and that as we become (reasonably) fully rested, our FTP declines leading to a slightly higher heart rate?
Of course, tapering is the trade-off between, on the one hand fatigued but 'powerful', and the other hand rested but 'less powerful' — and we look for the sweet spot between these two extremes.
about 20 years ago or so I attended a tri camp in solana beach hosted by : roch Frey/heather fuhr, Paul huddle/Paula newby Frazier, Peter Reid/Lori Bowden & john howard, and Scott tinley and john duke stuck their heads in too
Anyway - we had a classroom discussion re maffetone & mark allen
As I recall that discussion - they didn't recommend the maffetone method. And I recall them saying that mark Allen had an unusually low maximum heart rate (that was not representative of most triathletes) upon which the formula had been based, and that mark Allen had done lots of HIIT contrary to common belief
at the time I thought they knew what they were talking about
And since that camp I haven't given much thought to the maffetone method
Training: I really only use HR during my easy days on run training. I have measured my LT1 & LT2 with a BSX Athletics device, and try to use the LT1 (which is pretty similar to the Maffetone number) as cap on the easy days. Some days though, HR is just wonky and I ignore it and go by feel. But it is typically a pretty good way for me to keep the runs easy, even if they want to creep faster over time.
Racing: I use HR as a indicator of 'things going wrong, particularly on the bike. If I start to fall behind on nutrition or hydration, I typically see a HR decline. Below is an example of the second half of a camp ride on the Wisconsin bike course last year. I 'felt' fine, but noticed my numbers were all starting to slip. Particularly HR, which typically rides in the mid 140s during IM bikes, had fallen to lower 130s. You see the time gap where I stopped to buy and drink a coke and took off again. HR was up 10% and power was up 20% for the duration of the ride. I don't use HR as a "cap' really, but more as an indicator or what may be going wrong before I feel an RPE difference.
For me, I use HR during training on slow runs only. As I wanna hit X pace, I work torward that pace even if I need to hit the Y bpm. I just care about the pace, if it takes that HR to get to that pace, with time the HR will go down and pace will go up.
#2 - HR during races. Half hour ago, I was looking in an old notebook, and some 3x5's I used to keep after every IM fell out. I had listed each mile of the marathon, and some of them had HRs per mile. I looked at what I consider my "best" IM marathon - not only fastest time, but also a perfect even split, except for the 40 second pee stop the fie first mile. I noticed no HR data. Then I remembered - that was during the time when I was literally taking off my HR strap in T2 so I wouldn't have to deal with the data. I wear an HR strap all the time when training and racing now. I do al my wkos and races by RPE more than anything else, looking at the physiologic metric now and then and saying, Hmm, but never changing anything. Remember, though, I'm in my 19th year of serious triathlon training. Early on, in the first 5 years or so, I would rely on HR data to both push myself and confirm I was working where I wanted to be. After I realised that my pace:HR:RPE connections were very consistent, I gradually stopped paying attention to both pace and HR while running. I've never really used HR for the past 15 years on the bike, either. Honestly, sometimes I think the only reason I wear the strap is to make sure that line of data is filled out on, say Strava, of reads on my bike computer. I'm not bragging about this, it just seems what I've evolved to. Also, I apparently am at the age where I can no longer safely do what I used to call "speed" work on the running track - 200-1600 m intervals. I try that, and pay for it either immediately or the next day with a bad toothache feeling in my left butt. On the bike, no problem, but there I use power exclusively. My HR never gets in the way of hard work on the trainer or a hill.
#3 Min/Max HR - As long as I have been observing it (going back into my 20s), my resting HR has been in the 40 +/- 2 bpm range. 42 if I'm outta shape, 38 if I'm in great shape. I think my max HR has drifted down over the past 20 years from 170 to the very low 160s. I'm able to run "all day" @ 120-127 now, just as I was 15-18 years ago. So I'm beginning to disbelieve some of what I read about HR changes with age. I just got back from a bike trip with a bunch of ex-racers in their 60's. One guy (short fella) was hitting close to 190 up the big hill, and he said he used to be in the 200-220 range in his prime. RHR in the mid to high 40s. Proof that HR ranges are highly individual. We'd be half-wheeling each other, his HR @ 140, mine @ 115, neither of us breathing TOO hard, the same RPE I think. Who knows?
#4 - HRV - I don't know enough about its use in athletics to have an opinion, but I suspect as already noted that it may be of greater value for those who are really pushing over the edge, like anaerobic work in a pro team sport, someone in their 20s. For mature endurance athletes, it may be another story entirely, as our heart muscle is NOT the limiter to our ability to do work. It's probably the ability to carry and utilize oxygen, meaning hemoglobin binding capacity and mitochondria number and efficiency, that's our biggest hurdle. How ya gonna test for THAT?
#5 - I am in an enforced training period where I will only be doing Z1 and VERY EASY Z2 work - previously noted hip/butt issue is my limiter (I think it's a variant of piriformis/upper sciatica nerve syndrome). If I ever am able to start doing faster paces while running (maybe in a couple more months?) we'll see what all the LSD has done for me.
#6 - Threshold settings for PMC - agree 100% about the need to maintain vigilance here. EG, I adjust it for altitude every time I go to the mountains for longer than a day. I used to adjust my bike FTP daily as needed for the bike and environment (trainer vs outdoors) I was using, but I've gotten lazy on that regard the past few years.
@Peter Greagg and re: HR changes with training. "FTP = 0.072*15*(Max heart rate/min heart rate)." To me, the key (only?) variable here is the min HR. As one's FTP increases, the Max/Min ratio will perforce increase. If the Max HR is pretty much fixed, then the min HR must drop, no? As I've implied in this post and my earlier one, a drop in one's own min HR is a great sign of increased sport specific fitness, which I believe is in part related to increased ability of the heart to pump more blood with each beat, either through increased chamber size and/or increased compliance (ability of the heart walls to stretch). It is important to note that the absolute value of one's min HR should NOT be compared to other people, unlike, say w/kg or VDOT. Too many other variables, such as genetics, early years (prior to age 25 or so) training expense, body size, etc, etc.
Bottom line on HR use, reflecting on what @tim cronkand @Rich Stanbaugh have noted: I think it IS useful for reflection after workouts and races, for learning a bit about one's current fitness and how to improve racing strategy. But use DURING activity - I'm a fan of learning over time about one's body and moving to RPE as a primary metric.
Whew.
Great thread TC! I have a related question concerning HR and training that I'll put in a subsequent post.
Regarding #2. My bottom line on using HR: It's just data that makes me go "hmmm". During races I run by pace or RPE. Using EN protocol, I use HR as a limiter in the first 3-6 miles of a HIM/IM run after that it's just data. Last year at IM CHOO (97 degree temps) was the first time I let HR significantly impact my run, which I consider an anomaly. Going up the long hill my HR jumped from 150 to 170+ and since I only see 170+ on 5K races, I decided to walk until it went back to 150. This happened 3 times and was caused by the heat.
#3. Resting HR/Max HR, only for tracking purposes. I use Max HR sometimes to see what my HR zones would be if I were to train by HR. Resting HR I monitor and if it's 5-10 beats above normal (45-47 bpm), I'm either not recovering enough for my body is working to fight of a virus or something.
#4, I've been using Elite HRV app to track HRV for the past few months. Anyway, my morning readings have been inline with my activity levels and perceived fatigued levels. I've found you need to me very consistent in how/when you take your HRV readings and you need to be almost in a meditative state taking deep breaths. Anything that could raise your HR (e.g. worrying/being anxious/etc.) will skew the results. I don't swear by it, but it's another data point for monitoring fatigue along with resting heart and PMC.
#5. I've tried Maffetone training for several weeks and came to the conclusion that it's about the same as doing most of your runs at a Z1 pace, then reverted back to running by pace. Most training plans will have you doing 80/20 to 90/10 type run training and I've found that doing one interval workout and one tempo/fast brick and the EN style runs will put you in that range. Therefore, it's something I don't track.
#6. After 100% effort races/FTP tests, I update my Max HR or TH HR in TP.
#7. I agree with Al on this one. Like you mentioned a lot of stuff can affect HR so the key is to compare apples to apples when looking at HR at the same efforts over time.
I'm reading where more and more Pros are training with the HRM (to learn the correlation between their HR/RPE/paces but they racing without a HRM.
I've found it's best to either train (running only) by HR or by pace, but not both. Meaning don't take the EN pace zones and expect them to match up with the EN HR zones. Rather if training by pace know what your typical HR is at the different zones and vice versa if training by HR.