Home Racing Forum 🏎 140.6 Forums Ironman Lake Placid

IM LAKE PLACID 2017 MAY 15 - 21



Another "Big Day"

BIG shout out to you for keeping the chatter going - you all rock the most! 

So this week…... “Big Day” - This is a day to swim, bike and run to practice stacking up the day! Just a steady day.  Coach P does a fantastic video during this week that explains exactly what your goals should be during this day. Check it out!

Things to pay attention to


  • Again….. Nutrition- keep experimenting and figuring out what works.

  • Watching your pacing (are you making mistakes early on?)


Don’t “rest” in-between but no need to go full fledge tri geek and set up transitions where you sprint from event to event


What coaches want to see this week is us talking about how we are going to prepare. Post your “big day” check list here, a chance to even practice your “race plan” and “race report”


Let’s not wait until after the big day to start discussing what we did or didn’t do. Lets plan it out, write it out and discuss it now so we can help each other. Then debrief with this awesome Crew after the big day on what worked and what didn’t.


This will set you up for your race rehearsals closer to race day.


****There is still time to find a friend who is racing LP or your other IM events and give them the best gift you could give someone— no not a power meter, a free 30 days of Endurance Nation. Sharing is caring! (you get a Trisports Gift Card when they sign up)**** give them friend@endurancenation.us email and we take care of the rest!


Ya’ll are EN rock stars…. soooo what’s on your mind?


*** EN GEAR:  Make sure to check out our AMAZING store at Trisports! http://www.trisports.com/endurance-nation.html


«1

Comments

  • edited May 15, 2017 8:54PM
    To the pool this AM for 2400M 6x100 were faster than last week.  Not sure if I should push this a little more but the final one was tough. The first 100 at 2:20 and the 6th at 2:09.  Not sure I could sustain low 2:10-11's but most were in the mid teen's.  MS2 was 8X100 tpace-2-3 and I got all but two of those in that range, #5 was 2:27 Tpace +1 so I took 10 seconds extra.

    Any thoughts on swim pacing?  Better to descend the time or be more consistent over the set?  I sure there's a place for both I seem to be on the former with a few blips when I get tired.

      Edit - I just realized that we really only have 8 weeks of heavy lifting before taper.  It amazes me how much adaptation I can get out of my body over the 12 weeks.
  • Sweem and short run yesterday. .... @Gordon Cherwoniak...I think coaches want improvement week to week but consistency within the sets...I tend to try and descend...but I think that is a function of comfort and warmup....

    Hey team; any thoughts/discussion on Gearing for IMLP? I currently have 34/50 x 12/25....is it necessary or worth switching to say  11/27 freewheel?
  • edited May 16, 2017 3:18PM
    @Joseph Lombardi what is you current w/kg.  The 11/27 will have a couple advantages if you so choose.  The 11 will allow you to push a Keene descent a little more and it does plateau out in a place or two.  I can get going 50+MPH if I so choose.  The 27 will give you a bail out gear, not sure this would be necessary as you approach 4.0 but I'm a lowly 2.5 (hopefully 2.75 on race day) and will be riding a 50/34 12/30 on race day and most likely I could use a 32.

    3200 in the pool today.  Another good workout and I was able to push the final 3X300. 
  • @Gordon Cherwoniak - I am intending to do my swims as Monday intervals, WU, 100s til I can't, then 50s, then pull sets to finish up. 
    Tuesday would be 300s -500s focusing on endurance
    Friday is back to intervals, 6x200, 7x150, 8x100, then 75s or 50s til i finish 
    target for all swims is 4000 yards. 
    as a note, long set pace is roughly 1:46/100 yards, short sets (100s) average 1:35/100 yards, goal is to get those lower. Last year I had one 100 that broke under 1:30, goal is to get there sooner this year!

    today I did 3000 yards with a time constraint on the back end, missed yesterday, will swim Friday & saturday. 
    Also ran 1x Z3 and 2x Z4 (4)

    @Joseph Lombardi  - i go with a 52/36 & a 11/28 in the back, I can also climb out of the saddle without spiking watts, something good to practice as it gives your body a nice break when you have those climbs up past whiteface.. 


  • @Joseph Lombardi  - I am going with a 53/39 up front and an 11/28 cassette, which is the same configuration on my road-bike.  I had wanted to get a compact crankset or a bigger cassette, but my bike mechanic told me that would require me to re-do my derailers and crankset completely.  Thus, I will be focused on building leg strength and losing weight for the next ~10 weeks.  Fortunately, it is very hilly where I ride, so I will have lots of opportunities to learn how to climb without spiking my watts.  

    This morning, I did the EN Wk 11 ride.  It was hard, but without the VO2 max intervals, it was easier than last week.  Then, I was able to do an abbreviated 2-mile brick run (and made my 6:58 am train with seconds to spare).  

    Tomorrow's split run will be a challenge for me.  I have meetings in the afternoon and then a client dinner.  Therefore, I will try to do a 90-minute run early and then do 30 minutes on the treadmill during lunch.  (Mid-day workouts are always a challenge though...)  

    Friday morning, I will run - the distance will be determined by how much I can do tomorrow.  Friday night, I will swim.

    To accommodate my fondo on Saturday, Coach P will have me swim and do a 1-hour run on Sunday. 

    Good luck to everyone with the big Saturday race rehearsal.  
  • Hey Team, finally had some free lunch time to catch up and post.  I was carrying lots of fatigue after BRC and was waking each morning with sore/fatigued legs.  Until last Friday when things started coming around.  Feel pretty good now.  I treat these first five weeks as a true build period, such that I don't view any wko as getting me ready for LP.  Instead, it's just getting me ready for this weekend and next week.  So, a 10-hour, 500 TSS week simply allows me to do 11/600 next week, and so on.  For me, this is particularly critical for the run, because I can' t just go run 45 miles with an 18-miler.  I have to slowly build to 45 and to 18.  I'm building until the end of Wk 13, when my "big day" will be Raleigh 70.3.  After a little bit of rest/adaptation in 14, I'll have four big peak weeks, two of which will be heavy on cycling, the other two on the run, most of the "work" focused on race-day goal pace/power (i.e., 1:23/100y, 185NP and 8:00/mi).

    I'll ride 52/36 and 11/28 for LP.  

    As for swimming, I did another set yesterday designed to increase turnover, which IMO is key for successful OWS.  Unless water conditions are glass-like and you're leading, odds are you won't have the opp to take long, slow strokes.  Especially in traffic or into a current, you want the gas on at all times, with faster turnover.  I set my wetrinome to 70spm for 10 100's, then 72 for another 10 (my natural rate is around 65spm).  It's like run strides for me; the pace just forces me to be efficient and rhythmic with no pause, glide or dead spots.  Lazy hand-entry? No time.  It forces me to really spear the water.  No opp to over-reach and over-rotate and put up hand brakes, so I get the hand down quickly, grab water and start pulling.  Weak pull through the hip?  No time, so I have to work.  Yes, the stroke isn't as long, rotation isn't as big, but my experience shows it makes me faster in OW.  And, as always, I focus on form every single length of the pool.  Yesterday, on the way down, I focused on the imaginary quarter in the butt crack, using core to keep heels at the surface with virtually no kick.  On the way back, I imagined a golf ball glued to the crown of my head and I had to keep it under water the entire time (i.e., turn to breathe, never lift head even an inch).  On Friday, I'll do my weekly sweet-spot swim wko, where I'll do 200, 300 and ultimately 400 repeats at TP +3-6 sec/100 (about 95% of threshold, just like our FTP work on the bike but even more important in swimming because, unlike the bike,  we can hold swim TP in an IM because the swim is only an hour or so).

    Hope everyone else is having a great week.

    MR
  • Some big wisdom posted here from MR.......hope all are paying attention.....
  • Got in the weekly FTP rid 10' and 2X8'.  Not feeling a hug amount of fatigue but perhaps I should reasses this as I really did not want to get on the bike today.  Anyway this could be related to the last two weekends on the trainer 5H 45' last weekend and 4h the previous.  I still have a aerobar elbow cup on back order so will be on the trainer again this weekend for the 4h big day.  Hoping I can get out after this as I think the grind on the trainer maybe getting to me.
  • I'm riding a 50/34 with a 12/ 27  for LP.  I like this setup for the hills and have had great results with it including at LP.

    I'll be up in Placid this weekend for hopefully 3 loops and will be sure to report on how the roads are looking when I get back
  • Split run today to 50' in the books this morning. 4.1 miles with 10' zn2 3 time and a bit of a push at the end.  I only have 25' scheduled for the back side later today but still creeping the time and distance up.  The goal in 165' running this week
  • Unless water conditions are glass-like and you're leading, odds are you won't have the opp to take long, slow strokes. 
    Mike - it's called "mirror lake" for a reason. Between the surface, the size (which creates a whirlpool effect) and zero sighting issues (follow the underwater cable) you will have your fastest non-current assisted IM swim in this IM, likely a 1-2min PR... Keep up the intense work!
  • Continuing the solid workload, aside from swim time, which i am fixing in the next three days, I've mentally made IM training my "job." Very focused on each workout's quality & fit with other workouts, achieving specifically defined results in each wko and protecting what it means for the downstream wko's. 

    I've been lacking in early week running, I've been making Monday a rest/reset day (though i really need to get in the pool there), got in solid runs on Tuesday & Wednesday. Getting back into my routine of a 2x20 on Wednesday's bike that is effectively an FTP test. Got myself an 11 watt bump on this week's test, last week the legs were tired from an earlier in the day run and fatigue from my abbreviated BRC. Today's run was a true sufferfest. Saw Government Mule at Central Park's summer stage and didn't get home until 11, so I didn't get to start the run until 7:20am... the heat was on, ran this 15 mile run in high 70s to low 80s with full on humidity. This compares to last week's 14 miler in mid to high 50s! I used today's run as an exercise in HR management, playing with the pointy end of HR effort and learning how I perform at the upper limits. Had 4 "aid station" walks to kick down HR...

    Aside from the bump in bike watts, I haven't done a run test lately, but it is clear from all of my runs, that my threshold is faster.. I feel good when I do slow long run at sub 8:20s!

    getting psyched for the Al T'tude Badass camp, but not when Al is posting pics of last night's snow!
  • Got in the weekly FTP rid 10' and 2X8'.  Not feeling a hug amount of fatigue but perhaps I should reasses this as I really did not want to get on the bike today.  Anyway this could be related to the last two weekends on the trainer 5H 45' last weekend and 4h the previous.  I still have a aerobar elbow cup on back order so will be on the trainer again this weekend for the 4h big day.  Hoping I can get out after this as I think the grind on the trainer maybe getting to me.
     @Gordon Cherwoniak - have to say that many runs & bikes start with the "I'd rather be on the couch" mentality... good on you to getting out there, consider pushing those 8' efforts up a minute each.. the extra effort will build mental toughness & durability.. 
  • @Scott Dinhofer Thanks.  I hear you but I do have to pick and choose when I push my efforts, like today's z3 run.  I can get over the edge pretty quick given my lack of fitness prior to the OS.  The last two weeks of TSS were 570 and 640 and I only had a couple in the OS touched the 500 mark.  Further my monthly TSS for May right now is sitting at what I did in all of April so I'm very aware that I need to manage the IM ramp up.  I have tomorrow and Monday off work so plan on some extra sleep after the big day.


  • edited May 18, 2017 5:15PM
    Mike - it's called "mirror lake" for a reason. Between the surface, the size (which creates a whirlpool effect) and zero sighting issues (follow the underwater cable) you will have your fastest non-current assisted IM swim in this IM, likely a 1-2min PR... Keep up the intense work!
    Looking at the results from the last several years, LP looks like a fun swim, but far from fast.  Only 62 out of several thousand broke an hour last year, only four in my AG, and no one in the top ten in my AG (i.e., the four were "swimmers").  In 2015, one in the top 10 in my AG barely broke :60.  Congestion near the cable, two loops, rolling start, and a lot of bucket-listers who swim pretty slowly causing log jams on the second loop = a few extra minutes.  I have zero chance at a PR, but that's OK.  My :58 at Frankfurt was mass start in ideal conditions, no loops, on the bubbles of strong Euro swimmers who swim straight w/o any breaststroke breaks.  My :56 in NZ was also mass start in equally perfect conditions, that time following some pretty amazing Aussie and Kiwi bubbles.  But because I had free time over this lunch and like messing around on theobsessedtriathlete.com, I just looked up median, top 10% and top 5% swim times in my AG at NZ, NC and LP for the sake of comparison:

    NZ:  Median was 1:11:18, top 10% was :59:09, top 5% was :57:49, I went 55:50 (6/133 in AG).  
    NC:  With current, median was 1:05:16, top 10% was :55:50, top 5% was :52:24, I went 49:55 (2/150 in AG).
    LP:  Median last year was 1:18:02, top 10% was 1:06:02, top 5% was 1:01:38, I'll go ______?

    So, even if I can sneak in within the top 5% again, which will be a huge stretch given the level of talent that shows up in LP, I'd be lucky and happy with anything in the low :60s.  But my only real goal, other than having fun, is to pace DS until Mile 18 or so on the run, when she drops me and KQs.
  • Dealing with the heat (& 90% humidity) in FL also.  My legs felt sluggish from the outset on this morning's split run & I wasn't able to hold the Z2 & Z3 efforts consistently.  It wasn't until my run was saving on my watch that my foggy head realized I cut it 5' short, so I did the exact same time as last Thurs AM slightly slower and ~6-7 BPM higher heart rate (with 2 short water stops).  PM run will be on the treadmill thankfully.

    I'm heading to Vegas for a work conference so the weekend and first part of next week is going to be a challenge for workouts and weight management. 
  • @scott renick: 

    I had to do a conference in Vegas in February (when it was much cooler).  If you have access to a car, Red Rock Canyon is a great place to ride and run.  I rented a bike for about $90 and had an amazing ride.  You can run on the strip, however the traffic, crowds and stairs take away the fun.  There are several municipal Olympic-length pools where you can swim laps for $3 a visit, and the pools were empty when I went.   

    Body composition was an issue for me though - it took me a week or two to lose the weight from the client dinners and good restaurants 

  • @Patrick Marsh I haven't done Red Rock Canyon before but have heard good things.  I'm planning to ride it on Saturday.  In years past I've driven out to Boulder Beach and done OWS in Lake Mead but won't have time for it on this trip.  

    Our hotel has a 25m pool and I've done a run route along Koval/Sands/Paradise behind the casinos & golf course that's ugly & boring, but mostly long uninterrupted sections.

    Willpower at meal time will be a challenge
  • I tend to agree with @Mike Roberts on the swim.  I've only done the race once but have swum Mirror Lake many times.  It's fun to swim the cable in practice, but not so much in the race.  I'm a 1:10 swimmer.  On the firs loop the entire pack came to a grinding halt about 200 yards in.  I moved about 20 yards to the outside and had open water all the way around.  On the second loop I got on the cable and was quickly boxed in on all sides .  I think overall that slowed me down.  My advice is to stay clear of the cable.
  • @peter lautenslager - i think that was you slugging me at the 1st turn last year :p
  • edited May 19, 2017 5:37PM
    My advice having done this one, is to stay away from the damn cable.....find your rhythm,  settle in several feet away on the heels of another swimmer, stay straight and take care of business vs. fighting the pack on the cable.  Conserve your energy, its going to be along day with plenty of opportunities on the back half of the bike and run......swimming this cable on the practice run has nothing do to with trying to emulate what this will be like on race morning with the other 2,299 competitors fighting to find the same cable.  If I were to do it again, I would do the practice run 10 - 12 feet out in parallel.....

    Now, if you are @Mike Roberts and often get mistaken for a Swordfish, there's a good chance you will be up in front of 95% of the pack, which may afford a different strategy and the possibility of actually using the cable as a guide......otherwise, not a good strategy....

    SS
  • Checking in from the mitten!  Training has been going well.  Wednesday and Thursday had much higher temps and winds...mid 80's and yesterday for my second half of the split run 87 and 20mph!  Needless to say, the legs were a wee bit dead for both runs, but I did the best I could and managed to get the time on my feet.  My second runs are on trail in prep for Ragnar in Snowmass, which has made getting out for the second run SO.MUCH.EASIER!  Today's run?  I wore long sleeves and capris because at 10:30 it was 48 degrees!  What a difference a day makes!  

    Getting prepped for the big day tomorrow.  Charging my Di2, getting my nutrition plan locked and loaded and packed for a pool swim and then driving to the park to do the bike/run.  I have been able to hit my power numbers so far.  Last year I was quite soft on some of the intervals.  I think the new RPP zones will help me stay pushing right up until Placid.  

    I am getting  more comfy on the Ventum and loved how the Edco wheels handled the winds on Wednesday.  I've always ridden Zipp 404 up front and 808 on the back, so a bit of a different set up.  The Edco's are supposed to be stable in cross winds and while I am a bigger rider I do still get pushed around sometimes...but not on Wednesday during the ftp intervals.  Happy about that!  I think I will have enough info for fit tweaks after tomorrow and will get to my lbs to get more dialed in.  
  • Hi everyone! I'm having a good week so far and am prepping for tomorrow.
    My plan is for being in the pool by 6:45am then a quick change into cycling gear, drive about 20 minutes to start of ride, I mapped out a route that includes some decent hills, and will run right after doing a quick change at the car.  I am going to try out Gatorade Endurance - just received my order from Amazon. I've used Infinit in the past and while I really like it I want to be able to grab and go on the course and not stop and mix. Weather looks perfect - a high of 66, sunny, and winds 5-10mph. 
    Hope everyone has a great day tomorrow.
  • Big day in the books.  Lessons from this one:
    1) Need to set up and stay in my box even on big days - Got in to a discussion at the pool which pissed me off, I was mad until around  1 hour 30' on the bike.  Two floaters got in my head and in the end I should have just walked away.
    2) 50' run my neck and shoulders were tight.  Apparently I need to relax a little more.
    3) Schedules need to be brought up on a weekly basis.  My wife wanted to get a hair appointment, this Saturday was the only workout with stars beside it.  She called on Thursday and said she got in Saturday at three.  Some quick logistics in my head, pool opens at 9 with a 30' drive transition, then 4hour bike, to treadmill for 50' with baby Brody, it doable.  "Yes absolutely get your hair done."  Turns out pool opens at 9:30, Patti goes to home depot, was late returning and I got a bike-run transition feed, burp and change.  It all worked out other than the longer delay to start running.  I never said a word other than her hair looked nice when she came down to the treadmill to get Brody. 

    Swim 2050M - Cut short about 6' other than that a good effort
    Bike - Overall 4h 5' 218 TSS .73 - I continue to build the effort of the sets - 30' @.67 then 2X20 .76; .77. 79; .81  3X30' .72; .72; .73 then 18' @.73.  This was on the trainer again

    Gordon
  • Had to chime in because I always read whatever gold MR writes about and of course he did not disappoint.  @Mike Robertsif only I knew how to draft in swimming I would be riding your coattail the entire 2.4!  If I'm lucky to still have you in my sight come mile 18...game on ;-). 

    What my week looked like: 1 swim (not good, but with other life commitments something had to give this week and it was getting in the pool). 3 solid bike wkos consisting of a ~3hr trainer ride on Monday riding longer intervals of my goal LP watts.  Thursday an hour of hitting and exceeding my ftp for the prescribed wk 11 FTP work (very happy with this).  Sunday (today) I rode outside for a 72 mile/4hr ride.  Today's ride was good but I felt a lot of fatigue in my legs from yesterday's run.  As for the weekly run volume, I'm pleased with the consistency I've been putting out these past weeks averaging over 30 miles.  After last week's 3 days of 10 milers, I went traditional this week with a short quick one on Tuesday (my attempt at taking a day off), TM speed work on Wednesday, a brick Run on Thursday, split Run on Friday of 11 miles/11 miles of running on the sun and a second 4 miles TM later in the evening.  Today a quick 2 miles after the 72 mile bike.  Feeling good about this week with the exception of the minimal swimming.  Will be back this week with all three disciplines getting equal attention.  Great work team!
  • One last thing.  I'm about a 1:10 swimmer as well and last year I audaciously positioned myself right behind the 0-60' group and stayed on the cable the entire 2 loops.  Had the best IM Swim time (that wasn't current assisted) so far.  If you are a timid swimmer it can get rough on the cable, but if you're strong and confident I say ride that puppy!
  • Did not even look at the plan to realize it was a big day. I am short  a swim this week and it wasn't happening yesterday as it was my day with the kids. woke up and ran 5+ miles, just ran, didn't push it. Went out for 4 hr ride, doing some different loops that keep me close to home in case I was needed. Fatigue is definitely building, ran into one of my local riding buddies about 7 miles from the end so that gave me a good final push on some hills. 
    attempting a mini big day today
  • Thanks for all the feedback on Gearing...considering trying out 11/27 or 11/28 on some rides up in NH....then will see ...Yesterday was another "Big Day" but I'm just making them Bigger Saturday so to speak; I rarely can Swim so saving the 3 sport day for later...got in good swim session Friday...and yesterday rode 4:00 at .75 then 52Min. @ Just under planned RP...Headed out for 2+ this afternoon...Feeling quite good...biggest issue at the moment is positional on the bike....too much time in the "horns" and not enough in aero...I'll keep extending that time as we move forward....GREAT WORK EVERYONE!
  • Read through everyone's weekend training reports.  Sounds like there was a lot of high quality, heavy volume training going on yesterday.  

    My big Saturday was doing the Tour of the Battenkill - 75 miles and 5,879 feet of climbing.  Rode at 16.7 mph, including two complete stops to re-fill my bottles and at 17.1 mph if I just look at moving time.  If I do this next year, I will try to grab bottles from the volunteers and keep moving.  Still a newbie at all of this stuff ...

    There were lots of steep hills and about 20 miles of dirt roads. Most of the biggest climbs were on dirt, and were as steep as 18%.  It was a bit challenging because my bike will only fit skinny 25 mm tires.  The descents on gravel were tricky.  I fish-tailed twice because it was hard to see the surface of the road through the speckled shade.  Overall, I finished 50th out of the 281 people in the Fondo heat (17th out of 87 for my AG).  I was pleasantly surprised by that because I rode so much of it by myself without the benefit of working with a group in a pace-line.  I guess all of the OS training has had a positive impact.  

    Overall, Battenkill was a great experience.  I highly recommend it if it fits into your race schedules.  

    Woke up this morning feeling spent.  However, Coach P had suggested that I do my swim trial and run 45 minutes today.  Unfortunately, I had to drive 30 minutes to New Canaan, CT because there was yet another two-day weekend swim tournament at my local YMCA.  

    I did a 2300 yard interval in the pool at a pretty slow pace.  Then, I put on a singlet and headed out for a run.  Felt very tired at first, but finished the 5+ miler at an 8:10-15 pace.  

    Went to the bike mechanic again today (they must love me at Pacific Cycling & Triathlon).  I am getting new tires - just Continental Gran Prix 4000s.  My current Continental 4000s have about 1500 miles on them.  I debated with the owner about putting on S-works Turbo Cotton race tires, but we decided against it because I have Quassy, and two months of local riding to do.  

    What does everyone do about tires - do you swap out training for race tires before doing an Ironman?  

    Also, I will have the mechanic replace the batteries in my PowerTap and have them put on a chain catcher.  

    With about nine weeks to go to my first full IM, I feel like I am making progress.  My cycling is solid.  My bike configuration is almost buttoned down.  My running volume is relatively high and I haven't had any recurrence of tendonitis in my heel.  Swimming is my big limiter, but I feel like I am investing the time and have sought out coaching.  

    Hope that everyone is having a great Sunday.
  • edited May 21, 2017 11:55PM
    Just got back form a training weekend in Placid.  I was able to ride one loop on Friday - rainy, cold, lots of traffic (not much fun, but got it done)  Saturday was a great day and we rode 90 miles (2 loops with the second one modified somewhat).  That one hurt a bit - a little windy but great to be in the Adirondak's riding.

    Road conditions were really horrible.  It's been a year since I last rode the course and I realize that the roads are never great in Placid, but they just seemed especially bad this year.  Rout 73 out to the ski jumps is pretty bad.  The bridge at River Road is being replaced and that area is all ripped up.  I understand that it will be finished by race day (although it looks like they have a long ways to go...)  The decent into Keene was especially bad.  The washboard ripples seem to be worse and for the most part the road is chopped up all the way in except for a small strip towards the bottom that is brand new and teases you into thinking "what if it was like this the entire way..."  Finally Mirror Lake road is pretty rough with lots of pot holes as well.  Now on race day half the road is closed and you can ride in the center where there is less damage and obviously during these rides we are on the shoulder where there is a lot of crud and crumbling road so hopefully it won't feel as bad as I felt it was this weekend?  Our group had 5 flats this weekend from all the crap on the road.

    Regardless of the roads it's always so enjoyable to be riding in such a beautiful place and it was a fun weekend with plenty of riding and some running.  No swimming, although we did see one brave sole this morning.  It's been about 32 - 34 at night so the lake has to still be pretty cold!

Sign In or Register to comment.