IM Training with a Cautious Run

Coach Patrick

 Calling all cars, calling all cars. 

it has suddenly dawned on me that I am toeing the line in August at Iron Man Mont tremblant. This means I had better get my butt in gear. A cursory glance at my performance manager chart in Trainingpeaks shows that my fitness is actually relatively good despite the Upheaval / crazy work hours.

Given my recent injury history, I have to be extremely careful with my run mileage... which is what I'm looking for help on.

In the past I have typically averaged between 35 and 40 miles a week in my build up over 12 weeks into an Iron Man. This time that's not an option. My biggest week thus far is just about 25 miles and I'm hoping to get up to the low 30s safely for a few weeks before the race. 

For some reason I am OK reducing time and  increasing intensity on the swim and the bike, but for some reason it doesn't come naturally on the run. So here's my question for you guys:

If you were similarly limited on the run, how would you structure a week to be as Ironman fit /competitive as possible with 25 to 30 miles per week? 

Thanks!!

Al Truscott

Back in the day, when I was having a string of my best races, I would routinely average 26-7 mpw, with 2 long runs of 2:30-2:40, in the last 12 weeks before an IM. I pulled the data from my IM PR/run PR (IM AZ 2009) for those 12 weeks, first the weekly totals:



First six weeks, ending with a collapse due to dehydration @ mile 10 on the corner of Palani and Kuikini:



And the last six weeks. Note in these 12 weeks, I had long runs of 2:13, and 2:14, 2:20, and 2:27



And here are the last 9 weeks before IM CDA that year. Notice only ONE long run of 2:30, one of 2:24, 2 of 2:00. Both of these races were good for AG course records:



This is to demonstrate what you already know, Coach, that consistency of 4-5 runs a week, 26 mpw+/- with a couple of 2+ hour long runs, is enough to produce a perfectly respectable result. Don't risk it trying to do more. You can't scrimp the bike training for an IM nearly as easily as you can the swim and the run, IMO

scott dinhofer

^^THIS^^ is why Al is THE WSM... that's data!

Gordon Cherwoniak

Coach P

I think Al covered the structure beyond that...

Your performance is on a different planet than mine just remember those wise words a coach of mine once said "there's nothing wrong with missing workouts if you are tired".  Beyond this I've taken a step back this year with my running to ensure no over use injuries in 3 different weeks since the start of the OS.  While it's hard to do it's better to be training injury free next week that push through and create more problems. 

Unless you feel super during the build you have continuously challenge yourself on effects on downstream workouts.  I know there were several instances where I though I felt good and even my 1st down week mentioned above was due to stretching the planned time/mileage beyond the limits.  If you do ramp it up to the low thirties for mileage just be prepared to take a step back early on one week.  For me this was a week of down time from running or very reduced mileage, for you maybe this 2-3 days off running.

scott dinhofer

was thinking about this during my looong run this am.. 

here's my concern.. is your body ready for an IM? Can you go into an IM that you probably won't KQ in with that mentality and enjoy it? or are you going to go balls to the wall and risk injury?

I sense that there is a pressure with the changes at EN to lead really well. I wonder though if perhaps doing that at the HIM or OLY level for this year might be better given you are still somewhat recovering and clearly won't have the run durability under your belt that you'd like to have.

If what I am saying is a concern (the risk of re-injury) then, I think we all would rather see you do some shorter races, later in the year where you have great results (thus satisfying the need for your job, to lead) and not get injured.. Not only will it be fun to watch, but as people, and the new ones joining EN, hear your recovery story, they will see a guy doing a measured re-entry from a long term injury issue.. THAT's leading as much as KQing is in my eyes

my $.02... 

Dave Tallo

I'd take the approach of "train for a 15 mile run" and be prepared to fake it for the remaining 11.  Al's approach could dovetail this.   And I agree with the frequency above all else stance.

Satish Punna

Make your easy runs REALLY easy and maybe even do them on a treadmill to resist the urge to jack up the intensity. 

Paul Hough

My eyes are watering at Al's data!   I would recommend running 4 x week alternating weeks as:

25 mile week - 4, 5, 7 and 9 miles
30 mile week - 4, 5, 7 and 14 miles

In the final build month, the long week, long run would go to 16 then 18 miles.  All else the same.  So you would top out with one 32 mile week and one 34 mile week.  The 4 mile run will always be recovery.  The 5 mile run for speed.  The 7 mile run as 1 mile run easy, 5 miles at open half marathon pace, 1 mile easy.  Long runs at IM Marathon pace, or progressive if you feel good and you aren't feeling any twinge in the former injury.

Ian Kurth

I would say run easy EVERY day til race week.  All GRP/TRP - whatever we are calling it these days...  

Partition your week's volume goal up into small, med, and med-long distances.  Run 4x 2-4 miles, 2x 6-8 miles, 1x 12-14 miles.  No longer than 14.  Long runs are over-rated.  No 5k pace, No 10k pace, just GRP do no harm pace.  Low HR pace.  Use a treadmill if you can't seem to find the discipline to avoid chasing squirrels, or worse your ego when it challenges you to prove you are better than your last IM build etc.  Frequency goes a long way towards durability and running EVERY day provides not only durability but confidence that you won't fade late.

Get your intensity with your swim and bike.  Do no harm on the run.   Easy pace, good form.  Get to the start line healthy.

Leslie Knight

Being the snail in the group, I'm going to tell you that is absolutely 100% possible to be "ready" on 30-35 miles a week.  I've done four stand alone marathons and one Ironman. Because I'm slow, and didn't used to have the durability to run more than four days per week, I just didn't have the time to accumulate more than that. I finished three of them happy and without injury. My most miserable endurance event ever was a marathon I did three weeks after a 100 mile tri. The run on that race was 15 miles and that's what I trained for. Being not quite recovered from the tri and only training for 15, made 26.2 complete hell... after mile 17. 
I'd recommend that if this is a race you really really want, if you think you can be disciplined and not go hard and risk injury, then do your runs slow, on 4 days a week, and train for the full 26.2.  You're young and have many years ahead... think way past this race. 
My slow two cents. 

Trish Marshall

Great info here!  Being slower and semi injured (pt suggested running every other day only while as a slow runner I'd much rather run as Ian suggests for that frequency) leading into IMLP.  Being a good doobie is hard (and I have no history of awesomeness, or a team to lead) but I have every confidence that Patrick can and WILL do the right thing with regards to his injury.  @Coach Patrick my Mom eyes are on you! Behave!

Brian Hagan

@Ian Kurth - So to @Coach Patrick's question about how to structure the week, are you doing the 12-14 on Thursday?  Assuming you followed the EN plan routine, the Tuesday run would account for one of the 6-8 mile runs, but where would the other one go?  Monday or Friday or Sunday?  I like it.  I also like @Al Truscott's example of having 2 runs around 2:30 - 2:40.  For me, that would be around 18.  For you speedy peeps that may be 20.

Ian Kurth

@Brian Hagan I don't want to hijack this thread. However, in a nutshell I have had good luck running EVERY day for the last two seasons. Instead of  boxing myself into a specific day to do a specific work out, my life throws curve balls every day and I flex to get what I can in. I tend to operate on weekly goals and do whatever  is needed within a seven day time span to meet those goals. For example, for running, in the winter I set a goal of 50 miles per week for several months. During the tri season, I set it at 40 miles per week. Sometimes this means I do back to back 10 milers to meet that goal but if you look at my Strava, it's metronomic when you look at the volume.  Ideally, in a "normal" week, my runs would break down as I described. Again all of these miles have been at GRP pace with few exceptions, and these exceptions tend to come with races.

My point in offering my opinion to @Coach Patrick is that long long runs tend to be overrated, easy running tends to be underrated, and frequency trumps everything with running. If one subscribes to this thought, then one ends up showing up at races healthy, with strong, durable fitness.

Just one injury tweak encountered by running too fast too many times trying to get extra fitness with less frequency can sacrifice a lot of work on race day.  Instead, I would advocate to show up  at the start line healthy, using one's huge endurance background/history and wise noggin, and race results follow. 

Mike Roberts

Having faced several little injuies (mostly repaired R knee, which is currently flaring up) over 14 yrs of IM racing, I've taken different approaches, from stopping all running three weeks before race (terrible idea); to taking at least one or two days rest between each wko, but keeping quality high; and running every day, often twice a day, at Z1 pace (i.,e., the Kurth approach). For me, quality lights up my knee when it's bothering me, so running 3-4 x wk at Z3 and 4 is like injuring myself every other day, recovering and healing in between.  Which sucks.  But running 7-10 x wk at easy pace keeps the flare-ups down to minimal and allows me to get the 30-40 miles I need. I won't have a killer run on race day, but I'll finish. And more importantly, I'll start. More than one way to skin this thing. Just depends on which philosophy fits your schedule and your body. 

Al Truscott

Ian Kurth said:

...
My point in offering my opinion to @Coach Patrick is that long long runs tend to be overrated, easy running tends to be underrated, and frequency trumps everything with running. If one subscribes to this thought, then one ends up showing up at races healthy, with strong, durable fitness. 

Just one injury tweak encountered by running too fast too many times trying to get extra fitness with less frequency can sacrifice a lot of work on race day.  Instead, I would advocate to show up  at the start line healthy, using one's huge endurance background/history and wise noggin, and race results follow.

                                                                     ....................

My belief exactly - long runs are over-rated, nothing but easy can still work wonders, and frequency, if possible, can over-ride the loss of intensity a bit.

I remember talking with Turby Wright after his awesome Kona run several years back, asking him about his training. basically, nothing but Z1/2. No "speed" work or intensity.

Al Truscott

Brian Hagan said:

... I also like @Al Truscott's example of having 2 runs around 2:30 - 2:40.  For me, that would be around 18.  For you speedy peeps that may be 20.

While I said above that "long runs are over-rated", by that I meant longer than about 2:15-20, and only a couple of those in a 12 week IM build. Folks who feel the need for 3 hour slogs, or doing a long run week after week, are just asking for downstream issues, either fatigue or muscle soreness limiting future workouts.

IMO, long runs offer two opportunities: (1) build some strength in the running muscles, and (2) learn how to deal with impending soreness/pain/fatigue which invariably arise in the latter half of an IM marathon.

Gordon Cherwoniak

This year I've been utilizing the split run much more even beyond breaking up the the long run day.  This has definitely help me with some overuse issues I've had in the past.  Maybe there's some benefit in breaking up the runs further if it can be worked in the schedule.  It's helped get me to the line healthy, we will see how I run the IM marathon though.

I'm coming in under trained volume wise just hitting 20 & 22 miles the past two weeks but it's all I can handle.  In the weeks leading up I'll have done one 120' 2X140' and 1 180'  and a 140' run (week 14-18).  Everthing prior to the 120 run was 60' or less.

Doug Sutherland

Al Truscott said:

Brian Hagan said:

... I also like @Al Truscott's example of having 2 runs around 2:30 - 2:40.  For me, that would be around 18.  For you speedy peeps that may be 20.

While I said above that "long runs are over-rated", by that I meant longer than about 2:15-20, and only a couple of those in a 12 week IM build. Folks who feel the need for 3 hour slogs, or doing a long run week after week, are just asking for downstream issues, either fatigue or muscle soreness limiting future workouts.

IMO, long runs offer two opportunities: (1) build some strength in the running muscles, and (2) learn how to deal with impending soreness/pain/fatigue which invariably arise in the latter half of an IM marathon.

I fully subscribe to this concept EXCEPT for new IM athletes. Advice fo Coach P should be a different ballgame. The newbie cannot know The Suck that lurks at mile 18/20/22 by running a 2:15 or 14 mile day IMO, and that Wall is profound! The confidence of running 18-20 at least once before the big dance is powerful.

Julie Pfeifle

What an awesome thread!! and example of why I love this team... so much wisdom and willingness to learn, no matter your level!

Coach Patrick

Wow WOW! taking notes here before rewriting the 2018 plans...thank you all. Great to hear your personal lessons learned and your advice. 

I promised myself that as I got older, I would work really hard to get smarter. This thread helps me check that box -- thank you!

  When I first started training again a few months ago, one of my early benchmarks was to get my Run pace back up. So I kept the run volume down on purpose so I could run faster. Now that I'm faced with an event where an increase in run volume is important for my success, I have to dial back the intensity. 

I write ^^this^^  for myself as much as for you. My repeated historic downfall has been trying to hold onto fast faces even when the mileage goes up. I decision I would never make on the bike for the swim, but I seem to repeatedly try on the run. 

 Since looking at pace numbers only makes me want to run faster, I'm going to try and switch to using my proven Iron Man run a heart rate of about 142. 

 I plan to get on the frequency train, with a building long run up to two hours. Definitely one day off a week after that long run, potential he more if needed. 

I hope I have something good to report by race day!

Virginia Edmonds

Good luck Coach!

Mariah Bridges

This is what makes EN the community it is. Period. 

Robert Sabo

@Ian Kurth what was your race day IM pace in terms of TRP + how many seconds?  Assuming your IM run was under 80 degrees.  Thanks

Sheila Leard

Coach P - have you experimented with double runs for your long runs? Such as,  2 hours in the morning and 30-45 min in the evening? The second run is tough mentally but has built durability for me.

Ian Kurth

@Robert Sabo - Hey... Sorry, just saw this...  Unfortunately for the info that you asked for - IM pace,  both of my relevant IM runs were in temps >80.  However, for my estimated vDot 51-52ish, both were completed around the "easy pace" zone - low 3:40ish IM marathons.  Much faster HIM and oly splits, as well as open HM and 10k splits achieved during the training lead ups.  These races served as the vDot validators, as I progressed from a 46-47 vDot a couple of seasons ago.

What I can say it that I didn't slow down late in the IM, and also felt stronger at the end than a usual IM run.  I would also add that it might be short sighted to only equate the benefit of the slower running to acquire frequency/volume/durability with only run performance... Injury prevention, aerobic conditioning, ability to apply more consistent intensity to the bike and swim etc all are additional benefits not to be discounted.