anyone taking ice baths?
I knew once I started to take these on, I would become:
-insufferable
-evangelical
-a 'I found a magic bullet' poster
But DAMN THESE WORK.
I mean, they really do work.
After a 150+ TSS workout ...
-Cold water in the tub
-1-2 bags of ice
-grab the ipad as distraction, and
-soak for 12-15 mins.
No hot shower afterwards.
Thank me the next day, and the day after that.
1
Comments
Research pours cold water on ice bath recovery theory
If the thought of a post workout ice bath is enough to make you shiver, new research from QUT and The University of Queensland (UQ) will warm your heart.
The comprehensive study found cold water immersion after strength training hindered muscle adaptation -- pouring cold water on the long-held theory that an ice bath helps speed up recovery.
Dr Llion Roberts, from UQ's School of Human Movement and Nutrition Sciences, and Dr Jonathan Peake, from QUT's School of Biomedical Sciences, led the research, with colleagues from the Queensland Academy of Sport, Norwegian School of Sport Sciences, The University of Auckland and University of Oslo.
Dr Tony Shield, from QUT's School of Exercise and Nutrition Sciences, was also a co-investigator in the study.
The research has been published in The Journal of Physiology.
The first part of the study asked 21 physically active men to undertake strength training two days a week for 12 weeks. About half the group endured a 10 minute post workout ice bath at a chilly 10 degrees Celsius, while the rest had a warm down on an exercise bike.
At the end of the 12 weeks, muscle strength and mass had increased more in the active warm down group than the ice bath group.
A second study took muscle biopsies from men after they had performed single-leg strength exercises followed by either an ice bath or active warm down.
The researchers found that the activity of satellite cells, akin to muscle 'stem cells', and pathways needed to build bigger and stronger muscles were "blunted" up to two days after exercise in the ice bath group.
"We found that cold water immersion after training substantially attenuated, or reduced, long-term gains in muscle mass and strength," Dr Roberts said.
"It is anticipated that athletes who use ice baths after workouts would see less long-term muscle gains than those who choose an active warm down.
"At this stage we are unsure why cold water immersion had this effect, but a reduction of muscle blood flow could be one mechanism."
Dr Peake said the results suggested people should steer clear of ice baths -- at least after strength training sessions.
"This is the most comprehensive study of its kind and the results suggest individuals who use strength training to improve athletic performance, recover from injury or maintain their health, should reconsider using cold water immersion as a recovery aid," he said.
Where we we agree is compression, but the distinction I would make is the study of, say normatech boots has very very little research supporting use (and of that, coming from the manualfacurer), but does have a body of contrary evidence.
Another finding concerning ice: My daughter's college volleyball athletic trainer does not believe in using ice on injuries (e.g. sprained ankles). I thought she was crazy until I read articles/research debunking the R.I.C.E protocol for treating injures, saying ice actually hinders the healing process as well as complete rest.
If by "work" you mean that you feel better afterwards that is not the objective. The objective is to place a stimulus on the body and let it recover stronger. There is a growing body of evidence that things like ice therapy and NSAIDs interfere with this process. So you may feel better initially but are potentially inhibiting your long run progress.
This works great for something like a broken bone or sprained ankle, where pain is a real issue, and healing is not going to be impacted by downstream workouts. But for the micro-injuries which are a natural part of daily training, my belief is that we *want* those healing processes to work as hard and fast as they can. Taking NSAIDs (which do the same thing as ice) and cooling the area seems counter-productive to me. I'm always ready to have my bias changed by data. But one must be careful with studies, looking very carefully at what actually is being measured, and cross-checking to determine if it has any bearing, positive or negative, on what really matters to many of us - will we go faster on race day? I for one am willing and able to put up with a fair amount of low-level chronic discomfort, carefully monitoring it to make sure it does not progress, rather than try to eliminate it entirely.
I also know for a fact that Dave has an extraordinary tolerance for discomfort during and after training. So I'm wondering just what is behind his new-found enthusiasm for ice baths.
Cold water, mostly to cool my body temperature down, post-ride or post-run, especially for my multi-day camps, has worked for me for many years, to keep me in shape for the multiple days of abuse. Obviously just anecdotally, but that's me!
Ok – you guys got me. I’m the EN shill for Big Ice*. And as we’ll see in the paras below, I’m not even an exercise physiologist!
Seriously though. I have found the stuff works. What I’ll try to consolidate in this reply is a response to Al’s question (what does it mean to “work”) and the support for it.
What I use it for, and what I believe that the studies (but not all studies – some other studies claim it does other things, but these things aren’t important to me) claim it does, and support this claim, is to hasten recovery. Zooming out from that to 30,000 feet, what I’m trying to do – what we’re all trying to do as endurance athletes – is to do the maximum amount of work that we can, and that can be absorbed, without breakdown, in a given container of time. Even if we take a roi approach, more is still more. With these time periods being fixed, finding something that will either take down the time, or severity, or both of recovery from a hard session to maximize subsequent training performance(s) – and get more done - is what I want to do. And that’s what I’m finding when I say “these work” (for that purpose).
Now … I don’t “know” the mechanisms or the specific effect behind why these work. Coyly, I would say that I don’t “know” in a way that a good scientist doesn’t “know” anything for certain (not that I’m a good scientist … just that I acknowledge there is so much that I don’t know). But I do know that I feel better the next day / session(s) after an ice bath, than not. Maybe the ice has made me tougher and establishes new neuropathways through cold-immersion brain plasticity. Maybe the cold water has reached my alpha-core and my bio sympathetic impulses are sped up. Maybe the bath improves shuttling fat to the skin surface and changes metabolic behaviour and lipid transport. Obviously, all of those are made up … but that’s where the actual research and scientists step in and where I step aside.
The research on the efficacy of ice baths for our purposes is out there - I think saying there is no research or support is inaccurate. From very superficial research, reviews and overviews, I like this (my thread, so I get to like and choose my findings) as research on ice baths doing what they should be doing) is extensive and the benefits are long-known. What I want them to do is make me feel better downstream, and they do that by speeding the body to a hydrated state faster than not, and …. again … not a exercise physiologist, but from a piece I’ve pasted in a few other threads:
Cold Water Immersion
Background
High intensity exercise is associated with metabolic and mechanical stressors that lead to a reduction in performance ability of skeletal muscles along with increased soreness and inflammation. The use of cryotherapy in particular cold-water immersion (CWI) has been shown to be a beneficial tool in the recovery of muscles.
Cold water immersion relies on the physiological change in the reduction of tissue temperature which results in vasoconstriction of blood flow, reduction in cell oedema and the flushing out of negative metabolites in the muscle. Systemically CWI causes a reduction of core temperature (Tc) alongside cardiovascular changes[30] . The use of CWI immediately after exercise is thought to prevent the reduction in muscle performance and reduce the onset of DOMS. Cold water is widely acknowledged as a temporary anti-inflammatory, speeding up the healing time by reducing the activation of secondary pathways (ROS and inflammation) that cause muscle damage in the post-exercise recovery period[31][32]
There are 2 main areas in which CWI is shown to have positive effects; decreases in local blood flow & muscle oedema reduction, and cardiovascular efficiency changes.
Blood Flow and Oedema
CWI has been shown to cause reflexive vasoconstriction and is thought to positively influence the anti-inflammatory process during recovery. Oedema that is caused by increased permeability of the muscle sarcolemma, is associated with decreases in functional muscular capacity, increased pain/DOMS and impaired O2 delivery[33]. CWI reduces the blood flow to the affected muscle through vasoconstriction thus decreasing the swelling of the muscle cells [30][34] During immersion, the hydrostatic pressure of water acts on the body’s fluid distribution, moving fluid from the muscle extravascular spaces into the vascular compartments thus reducing exercise induced increases in muscle volume and inflammation. The hydrostatic pressure changes in combination with vasoconstriction from CWI reduce muscle oedema and inflammation[32].Compressive forces commonly combined with cold therapy (i.e. wraps, bags) limit cell swelling and fluid accumulation and increase the facilitation of waste removal[34]
Cardiovascular Changes
CWI has been shown to alter neural activity of the heart, restore central blood volume and enhance cardiac preload. The blood volume increases during immersion is redistributed through the body increasing cardiac output, preload and overall blood flow through the body[35]. All of these changes have been suggested to improve recovery post-exercise. CWI causes increased cardiac output which helps with the enhancement blood flow, nutrient distribution and waste removal all which have been shown to be beneficial to increased recovery time[36]. Many studies have shown the positive effects of CWI on reducing fatigue, improving heart rate recovery and increased performance ability in a second bout of exercise[33][37].These increases in cardiac efficiency help improve recovery without expending extra energy as is done in active recovery.
Research
There have been multiple studies conducted on the effects of CWI for reducing DOMS and increasing recovery time after stressful exercise. However, a major issue with the literature is the inconsistency between methods and mechanisms that investigate the physiological changes. The general overview of CWI benefits remains unclear due to the contradictory results that have been found. Potential benefits have been reported, but there are also reports in which no benefit has been found.
The major finding of CWI shows the positive correlation between CWI when ice therapy is applied intermittently and to a larger surface area[38]. Of the potential benefits that have been reported, the main factor relies on the theory that “the muscles will cool and relax after a few minutes in the bath. At the end of the bath the body will experience a strong flush of blood circulating through the muscles that were submerged. This sudden increase in circulation speeds up and improves the quality of muscle recovery by quickly flushing out the lactic acids that have built up in the tired muscle[39]
The Cochrane Survey systematic review in 2012 found evidence that suggested CWI had a minimal effect of reducing DOMS within 96 hours after exercise that CWI lowered fatigue levels and CWI was reported to speed up muscle recovery by 28%. The review looked at seventeen studies which included 366 subjects in the comparison of CWI against resting and no recovery technique after a stressful bout of exercise. Of the research proposed, there are consistent beneficial findings which include; injury prevention, recovery time increased, reduction in DOMS, reduction of inflammation, less muscle pain and stiffness, and helps in the treatment of heat-related illness (heat stroke). The potential negative side effects that accompany CWI include: painful sensation of the ice water, breathing difficulty risks and potential medical risks such as frostbite and hypothermia.
As for contra evidence that is being raised … I get it (and have raised it myself when talking about other recovery approaches). And, I remember seeing the same stuff, but without dismissing it entirely, I would observe that I see it surfacing it in the same publications or in the same way that would also tell me about new studies revealing stretching does more harm than good, or RICE is incorrect and should be avoided. I’m skeptical of these, if only because they normally appear in Runners World or sandwiched in the “lifestyle” section of the Gannett wire between stories about how doctors have found that eating 12 kumquats a day will reduce my chance of obesity by 99% or bending my knees when I walk will cause osteoarthritis. Are these studies right? Hard to tell. What they do often share is they rise to prominence because they present shocking, controversial findings that contrast common understanding. I also find that often, they are looking at different mechanisms in the effect (in the case of ice baths, see Paul’s example above … this might be true, but as a triathlete, I’m not ice bathing to improve Grip Strength – I’m ice bathing for recovery), or populations that are using them for different purposes (the only things that me, as a skinny middle aged triathlete have in common with a football linebacker taking an ice bath is we’re drawing in oxygen and surrounded in ice). Ditto finding on the effectiveness on icing injuries … different intention than ice baths, with only “huh - that’s cold” in common.
Finally, I get the concern about this, or other recovery modalities (magic boots, recovery garments, etc) undermining the body’s natural systems. Tim, Al and I chatted about this during a volume week earlier this year (full disclosure: while I was sitting in recovery boots), but I would again point to why it is that they “work.” If these are used after a big session and are speeding rehydration by moving fluids that leeched into the muscles back into the bloodstream, I see it more on par with, say, not forgetting to drink a lot of water after a big workout, or taking a nap, or lying down legs elevated, or self-massage, than short-circuiting or sidestepping the body’s own recovery and rebuilding system with some extraneous device. We agree that regeneration is the end goal … the ice bath is accelerating it. So, then, what makes it different than boots/garments/other things? I think the relative intensity (15 mins, instead of 12-24 hours)), the timing (immediately, instead of “afterwards, and into the night/next day” or “5-6 hours after my session, drinking a beer”) and intention (accelerate rehydration, vs the myriad claims of other techniques) might be a few of the things setting ice baths apart from the other recovery doodads.
And the discomfort? I’m not a pain junkie, and admit the first steps in the tub are … jarring. But I’m growing strangely attached to it.
Responses? Informed smack-down? More recent academic lit reviews on the state of the ice bath nation?
*it occurs to me that if someone wanted to go all Dark Web on me, they would probably dig up the fact that in 1985/1986, my older brother dated Kristina Morrison, whose family owned “Morrison Bagged Ice” in Burlington, Ontario. Yes, THOSE Morrisons – practically the Kennedys of the southern Ontario bagged ice market. So I admit: she was hot, I kinda had a crush on her, and she had ice empire family money. My “pro-ice” bias is there to be discovered.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/well/move/bring-on-the-exercise-hold-the-painkillers.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share