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Dino Does RAAM and Lives To Tell The Tale

Great interview with Dino about his RAAM experience yesterday, now published as a podcast. Total time for their 8-person team was 7 days, 7 hours, 35 minutes. Crazy, because it sounds like a lifetime when we talk! Everyone on the team had two bikes, and most of the riding was done just above Half Ironman intensity. 

Shifts were mostly 10 miles / 30 minutes, and you would do approximately seven (7) per Team before switching. This mean about 2 to 3 hours of HIM riding every day, in spurts. And it wasn't easy to rest between rides, as each car needed a navigator and there weren't enough volunteers outside the riders! 

Here are some of the highlights of what I learned: 

Logistics are critical for a smooth journey, and SPEED.

He had 2 months notice to do it, so he didn't have to do a lot of the usual prep for the race. They divided 8 men into 2 teams of 4, doing a shift of 10 to 14 hours of riding a day. And they had five volunteers. But with four vehicles and the demands / rules of the road, there was precious down time for them all. 

Their first "Team" Transition took 42 minutes…massive time loss! Room for improvement was apparent everywhere. 

For example, when a "Team" Was off, it was a 12-hour shift, but really only 3 hours of rest (After all of their logistics).  

You Gotta Know the Rulez

Check In was insane. Full group…inspected all bikes (2 per)…reflective tape on all parts and shoes….head / tail lights. All stickers on the vehicles…then a race book for both…the bible. 

Visibility mandatory on rider (one car per), basically leapfrogging all day. At night (7pm to 7am) you do direct follow. There is a GPS Track in the vehicle that’s following. 

Stay In Touch

None of the course is marked. The "book" isn’t in touch with the small municipalities…detours are posted on the website, and there are text alerts...but it's up to the teams to manage things on the fly. 

The RAAM course is off a beaten path. Some of the roads had three names (!), and despite great visual cues, it could still be super confusing.

Biggest Challenges

  • Lack of Sleep Is the Killer - bad attitude, sniping at each other, confusing conversations. 
  • Food Was Super Bad - Super early it’s all athlete food….then it moves to anything you can eat. 
  • Timing of Transitions - Sometimes you'd be early and no one would be ready...or you'd be waiting and no one showed up. In a race where seconds count, this was really frustrating. 
  • Final Elevation in West Virginia & Distance to the Finish - The most gain per mile with some super short steep kickers really hurt. 

So, Who's In for 2018? 

My wife thinks this sounds miserable, and that's a clear indicator that many of you will be interested. 

Again, many thanks to Dino for sharing!

PS - Here's the podcast link one more time: Episode #644: Unwrapping RAAM with Dino Sarti


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Comments

  • I'm just so glad that he made it safely.  An Air Force Academy classmate of mine was seriously injured in this year's RAAM with broken neck and spine among other injuries.  It was his 4th cross country cycling trip.  I only received info about it this week from alumni connections, and it wasn't clear he was in the same race as Dino.  But still ... visibility and safety are paramount.  Congrats again to Dino!
  • So I just listened to the RAAM Podcast.  Great Stuff @Coach Patrick...   I'm pretty sure my family situation will not specifically allow me to actually do this race next year, but it is so intriguing and has always been something I have thought about.  @Jeremy Behler and I have talked (dreamt) about it in the past as well... 

    After listening to the podcast (and thinking about a potential future team), here's my jumbled stream of consciousness...

    This is a giant logistics exercise.  Period.  With a little bit of riding a bicycle  (more of the bicycle riding part if it's a 4-person team). EN literally has people all over the country...   I can't imagine we couldn't pull together 10-15 (or more) people that would each be willing to do a 1-2 day "all hands on deck, no sleep, just work" volunteer shifts driving vans and then go back home.  This would solve the incremental logistics exercise of actually supporting the 15 extra volunteers.  Essentially you'd have 6 or so Full time volunteers at any one time that rotated in and out every couple of days like a swat team.  Then you need 2-3 full-time folks who are "managing" the Team and would be in for the full 5-7 days, but would simply need to act as Team Directors but would't be sleep deprived doing it and would always have the "swat team" to be drivers and spotters at the ready...

    I also get that you were "Learning on the Fly", but @Dino Sarti can you give me your thoughts on the following concept (provided you had the extra Volunteer numbers to properly run the support):

    Instead of having a single rider alone riding the whole time in 30 min shifts, I think it would be more efficient to at least have 2 on the road or maybe 3 in 90-120 min shifts...  (I would think with a solo 30 min shift, you would be just barely warmed up when you were swapping back out again.)  It's also easier mentally if you are not completely alone out on the road...  This way you could draft when you were not pulling (@JeremyBehler and I did this with just 2 of us for ~200 miles straight with barely a stop)...  And instead of 2x4 person pods, you would rotate people in and out to create a situation where say 3 people could be driven (while they sleep or rest in the vans) more like 6 hours up ahead and get a full 6-8 hours of sleep plus shower and a proper meal in a hotel at least every other day or so.  

    So Imagine if 5 people rotated through with like 2 people on the road at a time swapping out 1 person with a 30 min stagger or so between the people...   This would have you on the road for ~90 mins (30 mins with the guy you are joining, then 60 mins with the next guy, then you're our for 2 hours...).  But you're only ever in the wind for 5-10 mins at a time before drafting for another 5-10 mins (lather, rinse, repeat for your ~90 min shift then take 2 hours resting in the chase van). You rotate through 10-15 hour staggered shifts like this with 3 people always being "completely off" for anywhere from 10-12 hour blocks...    That may sound confusing just reading it in a paragraph of a forum post, but I've already started building the spreadsheet and would be happy to put A LOT more work into optimizing that if this takes any legs...   You would then also organize exactly which rider is on the road for which particular "bigger" segment of the trek.  For instance, as a bigger guy with a big FTP and a TT bike, I "should" be on the road just after the team passes the continental divide for the hundreds and hundreds of miles of minor net decline.  And the tiny little guys @tim cronk @scott dinhofer with big W/Kg "should" be on their light road bikes for the times either going up through the Rockies or in the Appalachian Ridge through West Virginia...  If you did a continuous rotation like this (with the aforementioned volunteer help), then "theoretically" your transition time would be exactly "0 minutes" for the entire trip.  Because you'd only ever be swapping 1 rider at a time, then the 3 "full rest" guys a couple of times a day, but when they got back to the team it would again only be 1 guy at a time joining in on the work...   If you did it this way, then you would actually double the amount of miles each rider actually is pedaling for, but in theory, they should all be "easier" miles because you're drafting for half of them.  It sounds like (from Dino's podcast) that the miles pedaled wasn't the issue, it was the sleep deprivation and crappy meal eating that was... 

    With the right "riders" and the right "volunteers" and the right "logistics plan" I don't see why Team EN couldn't win the 8-man team (or maybe make the podium on the first try and then win it the next year...).  Same issues and more cycling effort for a 4-person team to fully "compete" as well... 

    Okay, enough of a wandering stream of consciousness for now...  Anybody want to improve on my scattered thought process...   Feel free to tag others who are strong cyclists and just possibly crazy enough to to it...
  • @John Withrow I am 99% sure racers can't draft..see p24 of the rules re "other vehicles" and not riding near other "Racers" etc. But I think your way of doing it would be MUCH MORE FUN.

    IOW, this is like Ragnar but on bikes. And America.
  • edited July 28, 2017 9:40AM
    @John Withrow - a "toe in the water approach" would be to consider doing the RAAW which @Al Truscott would love to see us put together a team for. 

    Also not sure if I should be flattered or insulted by being thought of as a "little guy," but I guess I've got to get used to it given that for the first time since High School I bought a pair of size 30 jeans  :o
  • @John Withrow I am 99% sure racers can't draft..see p24 of the rules re "other vehicles" and not riding near other "Racers" etc. But I think your way of doing it would be MUCH MORE FUN.

    IOW, this is like Ragnar but on bikes. And America.
    From page 28 and 29 of the rules (emphasis mine):

    1220 – Teams Team Racers do not have to qualify to race. However, racing a RAAM Qualifying race is highly recommended. The Rules for Solo Racers also apply to Team Racers. However, additional Team rules include:
    One or any combination of a Team’s registered Racers may ride at any time. Drafting is permitted within the same Team, but not between rival Teams.
    • If law enforcement prohibits drafting, abide by their commands.
    • A temporary ban on drafting may be imposed if the Team of Racers creates undue traffic problems that could be remedied by having only one Racer on the road.
    • There are no requirements as to how much time or how many miles each Racer can ride.
    • 8-Person Teams must enter with a minimum of 5 Racers; 4-Person Teams must enter with a minimum of 3 Racers; 2-Person Teams must enter with 2 Racers. If one or more of the Team Members gets hurt or cannot ride, no substitutions are allowed. Only one Racer has to finish - the rest of the Racers can drop out.
    • No switching Divisions, Categories or Age Groups once the Race starts. 29
    • Penalties for Rules violations will be imposed on the entire Team, not just on the Racer responsible. The entire Team must stop at the Penalty Box to serve Penalties.
    If a wrong turn is made by a Team Racer, then a new Team Racer may begin riding at the point where the wrong turn was made. This is the only time Team Racers do not have to overlap wheels during an Exchange.

  • @John Withrow we should talk...I've been building a spreadsheet on my side as well and going over various strategies and approaches both for the cycling as well as the logistics.

    I've penciled in a 2018 run....this gives us plenty of time to plan/strategize.   I'd want to do this to win...not just finish.   I've done a fair amount of math and to win you would have to average about 3.1 w/kg for the entire race....about HIM pace.    Picking the team would be tough....to get the right mix of rider types as you mention, but also to find the right mentality (need to have a couple captains that have decision rights and which the other Type A riders are on board with following, even if they disagree).    For the competitive teams I understand this can be a real challenge.   

    In addition to @Dino Sarti 's learning we can tap into my local friend Dave Haase who was 2nd overall in the individual RAAM the last couple years as well as top American.    

    This could be a really cool story....Triathlon Team members...all rookies, enter and win first RAAM with a combination of brains and brawn.   No doubt it would be a challenge and the odds would be stacked against us..but that's what would make it so much fun.  
  • @matt limbert@Ian Kurth should be on your short list for this
    @Al Truscott As a driver/ support/ logistician

  • Guess I need to make time to listen to this podcast. For now, yeah, 2018 is an "open" year for me event-wise, as I age up in 2019. I'd love to contribute any way I can to an EN assault on either RAW or RAAM. It happens just a week or two after the usual time for the Bad Ass Camp right...?
  • Can I just say...this sounds truly EPIC! I'll be happy to cheer and send mojo....and watching with great interest. Really fun reading you guys hash things around! Congrats Dino!
  • @John Withrow - a "toe in the water approach" would be to consider doing the RAAW which @Al Truscott would love to see us put together a team for. 


    Absolutely no way can you do RAW when you know RAAM is out there.  Once you free up the time and build the team, you may as well go all the way across the damn thing...  If you have the guts to dream BIG.  :)

    Truthfully, after Durango, it's mostly downhill.  :)

    To point out something Al said to me earlier, RAW would in interesting as a 4-man team.  The pre and post miles are easier and you are looking at 3-4 day commitment.
  • @Withrow and @Behler - Everyone has a  plan until they get punched in the face....  :)

    Seriously, I think your thoughts are sound.  It is totally a logistics event.  Teams with more help, vehicles and rest go faster.  Period.  

    The riding is very straight forward.  I rode many more miles, harder miles on the ToC than I did on RAAM, but I also got a hot meal every night and 8-9 hours of rack time.  Those thing are GOLD on the RAAM course.

    You are totally right, 30 minutes of riding is strange.  By the time you warm up, and start charging, you tag out.  The thought was "freshness".  We rode a tempo between HIM and Threshold. The reality was we only really had 4 riders on hand at any moment and one needed to work the map - which requires a lot of concentration.  It sounds lame, but it does.  As a said, we did it totally minimalist and frankly, in hindsight we learned a lot, but struggled to make changes.  The main issue is that once we got on to a work/ rest 12-14 cycle, it becomes very hard to change.  It would require people to pull a double shift.

    Some thoughts in no order - 
    • This event is really about two weeks for the leaders.  Vehicles needed to travel a long distances to Oceanside and in most cases then needed to travel long distances home after the race.
    • Having a "pilot vehicle" that can go on food and supply runs would a godsend.  We were forced to live off the land primarily and it can be dire in huge parts of the country
    • Drafting is legal and was contemplated to escape the boredom, but we realized there was no boredom and next to no downtime
    • The parade needs to keep moving.  The biggest time loses came for us at "shift change".  We needed to totally empty and fill the vans with new riders and gear every 12-14 hours.  Sometimes it was efficient, many times it was not.  Having the ability to send a car and rider down the road at all times would fix that.
    • The group needs to be able to move down the road while it sleeps.  Hotels were a big time suck, but on our resources were required.  The really fast team in my race never saw a hotel room.
    • Building the right team is important.  The biggest single issue we faced on the race was the husband and wife.  He rode and she volunteered, but they were crazy with a toxic relationship that was very, very stressful for all.  She cried at 3 times that I saw and there points were it felt like I was watching couples counseling.  RAAM really needs endurance athletes or people who "get it" in every role on and off the road.  The event can be grueling for everyone.
    • This race needs cheerful positive people.  Many times we just needed to smile and laugh and work to keep each other awake.  Here I excel.
    • It's a team both riders and volunteers - everyone needs to understand this is an endurance event and needs to be committed to the suffering.  The riding gives you fresh air, a clear head and nice endorphin boost.  My legs were not a limiter.  The real suffering was done by the volunteers.  They didn't get any of the benefits of riding and were dealing with no sleep, bad food and cars that had become disasters.  They received none of the glory, but certainly deserved their fair share.
    • Having a STRONG crew chief is SO important.  You need a well rested clear head to see the big picture.  We had a "crew chief" named Greg.  He was a friend of Grant's (our lead organizer and a rider).  Grant continually overruled Greg and was trying to ride and be the crew chief.  Greg eventually just assume the role of van driver.  As a result, our team was very bifurcated and there one looking at the big picture of both 4-man elements.  Tom Brady can't be the quarterback and the head coach, which is what Grant tried.

    I have the spreadsheets that were built with ALL the mileage and time stops.  I will email them to Withrow and Behler.

    I would be interested in an EN team in either 2018 or 2019.  I really enjoyed the event.  It was pretty profound in hindsight.  The course is just SO BIG and amazing.  It also requires so much precision and attention to detail to stay on it.  It's a very beautiful thing.
  • Regarding a 2018 team....  I am a god damn asset in the van when the chips are down.  I am charming and have a good sense of humor.  I was the mascot for our group.

    And, fortunately, I am pretty good all-rounder on the bike.  Built more like sprinter, I think I would bring a "Peter Sagan element" the team.
  • Dino - thanks for taking the time to add those thoughts. 
    As I read them, I am very much reminded of the three Bermuda races I've organized & run as well as the numerous multi - day coastal distance races (sailing) with a 10 person crew. Many of the points Dino raises were issues there. 
    Not sure when the declaration date is on this, but I am going to be proposing a winter meet up between some of us.. 

  • ...Built more like sprinter, I think I would bring a "Peter Sagan element" the team.
    Please post a picture of you doing a one-handed wheelie on your road bike, Dino.

    I have now listened to this podcast. Reminded me a bit of the logistics and planning required to take my family (kids age 7, 12, 16 + wife) on a cross country bike trip 20 years ago (Aug 4, 1997, we were riding from Vermillion to Platte, SD, after spending the evening before in an sweat lodge). Also, the observation that It's A Big Country, covered mostly with cows, corn, and soybeans.

    @John Withrow & @JeremyBehler, I'm ready to help in any way, from being a grunt between Oceanside and Trinidad, CO, through planning and pre-ride preparation to serving as an éminence grise, i.e, being the John Kelly this expedition will need. LMK; Let the riders ride...
  • @Al Truscott - we are expecting you to be the chief organizer coast to coast! If not chosen to or can't schedule riding I am in for logistics, driving, etc. 
  • I would be interesting in participating as a rider and/or support person.  My preference would be to ride but if you guys are looking to win, my paltry 2.6 w/kg probably won't make the cut.  I would be available for some of the east coast(ish) segments and would love to be in the discussions.  I actually am set to do the Natchez Trace 444 as part of a 2 man team next year so maybe my power will be good enough by then.
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