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Frame replacement vs. new bike?

UGH! I took my 2010 P3 (Ultegra) in for a tune-up yesterday and they said there is a chunk missing in the frame by the chain stay. Both the bike shop and Cervelo say the bike is not safe to ride. My first 70.3 is 8/13! I've had my chain derail a few times & apparently that was enough to rip a chunk of carbon out. I'm surprised I didn't notice it and very disappointed. So I either need to get a new frame through crash replacement (~$2200-2300) with a new crank because the sizing of the BB is different now or just get a new bike. This is obviously terrible news. Any advice?

Part of me thinks if I"m going to pay that much money, I should consider getting a full new bike. But another part of me thinks that if I'm willing to spend that much on a new bike and I need a new crank, I could get the new frame and get a new crank with a power meter (which I think would be really useful) for about the same cost...I currently am not training with power.

Thanks!
-Rob

Comments

  • My initial gut call tells me to go with new bike.

    However, if the geometry is so different between old and new frames, which could impact your speed and especially comfort for the 70.3 in a month, then I'd say go with a frame replacement.

    How soon could/would the new bike, regardless of frame decision, be ready to ride?

    If you did go with a PM, there's not much "power-specific" training to do between now and then, IMO. You'd just be using it to watch/observe your power numbers to learn to correlate to your current training method (ex, my max HR of ### = 250watts, good to know). Then possibly use it as a chain on race day more than a whip.

    I don't know if that ultimately helps, but that's my thought process - like a bowl of spaghetti! haha
  • Thanks a ton @Scott Alexander !

    They made it sound like they could have my bike back together with a new frame in about 2 weeks with the frame replacement. 

    Time-line for a totally new bike would depend on whether or not the new bike is in stock at a LBS. They have a P2 105 in my frame height ($2700) & the bike fitter is checking to see how closely the geometry matches what I've been riding (I went through a full Guru/Slow twitch fit yesterday because I wanted to make sure I was optimized on my old frame).

    Regarding the power meter - I focused on the 8/13 race. But I'm planning to continue training hard through the winter & racing again next season (and hopefully beyond), so I figured it would be a good longer-term investment.

    I do have a pretty nice road bike I can train on for now, so that is good. I could even race on it, but I would be way slower, obviously.

    Thanks!
    -Rob
  • I'd ask yourself if you think Triathlon is a long-term game for you...   I'll assume since you're here in EN and already have a nice road bike and a tri-bike that you'll be playing this game for a while...   That's enough of a reason to not rush into spending $$ to overpay for something you may or may not be happy with for the next ~5+ years.  $2,300 for a new replacement frame set sounds like a lot to me and you'd probably be better served doing something different...   These are your options the way I see them:

    1) Pay $2,300 for new frank/crank to then pay more to have your LBS build it.   If you do this, you would still have an expensive bike with old components, I wouldn't personally choose this option.  

    2) Buy a similar frame to what you had used on something like eBay or Craigslist and pay your LBS to build it for you.  This will be your cheapest option and at the end of it, you'll likely have the same bike (or very similar) to what you had before you noticed the chunk for likely under $1,000.  What size are you?  Could get something like this and use the parts you want and sell or save the ones you don't need...  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cervelo-P3C-Carbon-Dura-Ace-/192224329164?hash=item2cc1767dcc:g:wpwAAOSwjvJZSrGh   Other than the paintjob, frames generally stay the same for many many years until the next step-function change in the model...   (But Components seem to change more rapidly).

    3) Buy an entire used bike on eBay or local.  You might be able to save some money and get a very similar bike to the P2 they are offering you (and use the extra $$ to buy a Powermeter for future training/racing)... http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Cervelo-P2-White-Blue-Triathlon-56cm-Shimano-105-11spd-Upgraded-Parts-/253050233812?hash=item3aeaf823d4:g:vU4AAOSw3QpZbO9v   Or pay roughly the same as the New P2 and use the opportunity to upgrade things, like maybe move up to Di2 for roughly the same price...  http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Cervelo-P3-Ultegra-Di2-6870-11-Speed-48cm-/201986123246?hash=item2f074fa5ee:g:Y1IAAOSwiQ9ZRx1u    (again, I don't know your size so these are simply indicative)

    4) Take your time and buy the EXACT bike you will want (new from LBS or used from any other source).  This may take a bit longer, but you will likely have this new bike for the next 5+ years, may as well not rush into something you won't be happy with...

    5) Have the bike stripped down and send the frame off to a reputable Carbon shop to repair your frame.  I think the cost of this would likely be $500-700 anyways and probably not worth it on a ~7yr old frame...   Probably quicker and maybe cheaper to just go with option #2 above.

    If I were personally making that decision with a clear mind, I'd likely pick option #3 or #4 depending on how much $$ you were willing to spend.  You can train on your road bike and even race on it if necessary.  Certainly not ideal to race on it, but there will be hundreds of other people doing that race on a road bike, so it's not the end of the world.  And you said this is your first 70.3, if it were going to be your last, you wouldn't even be posing this question so even if you race this first one on your road bike, you will have an easier target to beat in your next one...  :smiley:
  • JW nails this one, he is the master of finding used bikes, LOTS of good bikes on ebay, but also check out the facebook groups "online swap meet" and "tri 'n sell it" @John Withrow should join "the facebook" if only to surf those two groups for bike gear. I've sold 2 pairs of Peed in, used Tri shoes for real cash there, that ain't gonna happen on ebay.. I'd also have a look at the slowtwitch classifieds. 

    surf around for a day and see what you find, might be your best option than a new frame. As for power, I'd suggest spending the extra $ for the Powertap P1 pedals, they are idiot proof and can move from bike to bike. 
  • Bahahaaa!!! THREE times I read that as "peed in tri shorts" and I was trying to figure out what kind of person buys used tri shorts. 

    I would definitely look at this over the long haul. This is one race. Pick one of the five options that will make you happy for the next 5-7 years. And as someone who loves my road and tri bike equally but for different reasons (kind of like my kids), I say pick a power meter that can move between bikes. I have a Stages, but I'll get pedals next time. 
  • yep, I would race the upcoming race in road bike and savor the shopping experience to buy a new tri bike using the $2300 you were gonna spend and save up for more..  The bike is 7 years old, and you might even like a new bike!  You will have a harder time reselling a 2010 bike than a new one, and like above mentioned, save up for what you really want and use your upcoming race to look around and ask others what they like...You have been able to use the bike for 7 years, so you have already gotten your money's worth... so it would make sense that your next bike you might also have for 7 years.  
  • Wow, thanks so much Endurance Nation team ( @ironmarianne ,@Leslie Knight , @Scott Dinhofer and @John Withrow) ! Special thanks to @John Withrow for the balanced and detailed reply. I think you are "all right on the money." :)

  • Bahahaaa!!! THREE times I read that as "peed in tri shorts" and I was trying to figure out what kind of person buys used tri shorts. 


    the same ones that bought two pairs of my used tri shoes that were peed in?  :o
  • Wow, thanks so much Endurance Nation team ( @ironmarianne ,@Leslie Knight , @Scott Dinhofer and @John Withrow) ! Special thanks to @John Withrow for the balanced and detailed reply. I think you are "all right on the money." :)

    Larry, post a pic of the damage... I had a frame crack on the downtube of a mountain bike from shipping issues and sent it to calfee for repair... I am willing to bet $ you can send that to calfee for repair and salvage some $ out of the frame... they can paint and sticker the bike to original, cannot tell. Used the bike in the Leadville 100 last year! (came back just in time) repair with paint & stickers was $1200 - Before/ after pics. Note that price included a spot on the chain stay that also needed to be dealt with, so essentially, 2 repairs.. 



  • edited July 19, 2017 11:01AM
    @Larry Peters, just wanted to add, all very good advice above. You don't "NEED" to change your crankset, just your Bottom Bracket bearings (off the top of my head I think Cervelo changed The BB spec from a BSA threaded one to BBRight bottom bracket) there are all sorts on the market & very common, so you can get, for e.g.: shimano (24mm spindle) to fit any bike on the market & dependent on if you go for ceramic or not these don't cost alot. So all your old components will go on a new/used frame. Your local BS should be able to sort this for you. 
  • Thanks a ton @Scott Dinhofer and @KARL BONNER

    I was traveling for work & working long days the last week (with 70.3 training on top), so I had to put this on hold. BUT, I just got the pics emailed to me from the bike shop. When I initially spoke to them, I *thought* they said it was un-repairable. But today they said I could send it to calfee for repair (as suggested by Scott Dinhofer). I'm pissed off, they didn't make it more clear that this was an option initially, but they did apologize and I wasn't super pro-active last week because work was so crazy.

    Here are the pics. It looks less serious than I imagined. I'm going to email Cervelo directly to see if they also tell me that it is unsafe to ride.

    They are saying: $300-500 for calfee to fix it. They are saying it will take several weeks, so I won't have it for 8/13 Steelhead 70.3. But at least I won't have to buy a new bike! :)

    I am pretty sure this happened when I was on the trainer. I find it harder to "soft pedal" long enough on the trainer (than when really riding) when shifting the front derailleur from the small chain ring to the bigger chain ring, and sometimes that derails my chain. I'll have to be more careful in the future!
     
  • Feel free to flame me if you must, but I would personally do a 70.3 on that bike if it was me racing and that were my bike...   Nobody will ever actually give you that advice, especially not your LBS nor a bike manufacturer because their liability is simply way too high.   If you're well north of 200lbs or you put out massive amounts of power, then maybe not...

    Here's my logic.  That part of your frame is way over engineered.  And the damage came from your chain hitting it while turning your crank (at least that is my assumption from your orig post).  That means that all of the carbon surrounding it is likely completely fine and since that part of your bike is over built, all of that extra carbon will carry the load.  I would be giving you a different opinion if that damage came from an accident or you hit into something hard (crush effect).  If that was the cause, then I would have to assume that the carbon underneath the smooth paint also potentially has hairline cracks in it severely increasing the risk of catastrophic failure.  Also, if this were on the fork or something, then no f'ing way I'd ride it because if that failed going down a hill, you might die...   If this part of your frame fails it likely happens as you are pedaling and applying high forces (i.e. uphill in control, going relatively slowly).  And it most likely starts to really creak and crackle as you are riding and you will feel it gradually breaking over many minutes (or hours) before it eventually fails...   I'd take it out on a really steep local hill and have a friend with you...   Do a couple of steep uphill VO2 sets and see if you can hear or feel anything strange...   If not, then the probability that it cracks while racing at a very steady (much lower) power just seems low in my mind.

    Now here's my hedge.  I said I would do that if it were "me".  But I have many many thousands of miles on my bikes and I know exactly how they should sound/feel.  And I am also a risk taker.  I am not telling "you" that you should be comfortable taking those same risks...   If "you" decide to take those risks, that is "your" decision to make and "yours" alone, and don't rely on my opinion or anyone else's.

    With that said, I am talking about one 70.3 that happens to be coming up in the very near future.  Longer term, I would either have it fixed or find a long term solution.  When you consider a Calfee fix, consider a couple of extra things...   You will also have to pay your LBS to strip the bike down first and then pay them again to rebuild it when you get your frame back...   So add $200-300 to the cost of the actual frame fix that Calfee will charge you...   Also consider that you will never ever be able to sell the bike if you fix the carbon (so don't bother paying extra to have them match the paint.  If you plan to keep it and ride it as your main tri bike for the next 2-3 years, then just fix it and keep it.  If you might get the itch to upgrade in the next yr or two, then either race on your road bike or on your damaged tri bike (per above) and then take your time and do your future upgrade in the next couple of months, but not be rushed in finding the perfect bike on two weeks notice (or even worse is settling for some new bike that isn't exactly what you want).
  • Hey @John Withrow, thanks a million for taking the time to write out all that advice! I really appreciate it!

    Honestly, looking at the picture (and considering I've ridden that bike a bunch this summer, and I'm pretty sure that damage happened a while ago), I'd be very tempted to ride it for the next few weeks too (through the race), and then get it fixed. So I appreciate hearing I'm not the only one. I think your logic is sound.

    That being said, the bike has been "creaking" occasionally this summer. I wasn't sure what it was, which is why I took the bike in for a thorough tune up (hoping it would correct whatever was making the sound). I did not think the creaking was the frame or a structural issue, but I wasn't sure honestly. The bike store initially said they would not do the tune up on the bike in its damaged state because of liability (which would make it harder to know if the creak is from the frame or something else out of alignment). Hypothetically I could get the bike back and try to pin-point the creaking sound myself. But I'm not sure I'm going to have time for that (I'm not super handy with bike repairs either).

    Also, I do weigh a solid 195, so that is a bit more pressure on the bike. I don't have a power meter, but my bike split does typically rank pretty well in local olympic tris (maybe indicating a good amount of power? ~1hr02 min for 40 k on a flat course) when I was at my best fitness (which is where I hope to be again in the near future).

    I do hope to race this bike for the next 2-3 years and won't likely upgrade, so I think I'm going to repair the bike. I'm ok not being able to resell it (I wouldn't be able to resell it now anyway, except for the parts).

    Yes, they mentioned $200 to strip the bike down for shipping. I didn't mention that cost in my post, because I was planning to pay ~$100 for a thorough tune-up anyway (including a drive train cleaning), and they said if I paid the $200 for them to strip the bike & ship it, I wouldn't have to pay the $100 for the tune up. So I felt like that was a pretty good deal.

    I'm just so relieved I won't have to buy a new bike. I'll think more about racing this bike for the 8/13 70.3, but for now, I feel pretty good about riding my road bike for the rest of the season, and then getting my P3 back and hopefully crushing my 70.3 time next season. 

    Thanks!
    -Rob
  • edited July 24, 2017 7:11PM
    PS. I wasn't planning to pay extra to make it pretty after the carbon patching. The damage is normally hidden behind the chain rings anyway.

    You are right, the chain is likely what caused this damage (not a crash).

    I also appreciate the hill test idea. 
  • Does anyone have thoughts on Appleman bikes for carbon bike repair? A good friend of mine with a lot of experience in cycling highly recommends him and he has a very fast turn-around time. https://www.applemanbicycles.com/ Thanks!
  • @Larry Peters - how much $ does appleman save you over calfee? Calfee is THE gold standard on this.. I wouldn't go anywhere else. 

    My reaction to your picture BEFORE seeing @John Withrow's post was "that just looks like a lot of surface damage.. how deep is the carbon there? is it cracked through?  seems to me that your creaking sound is likely to be a bearing (particularly if press fit) and not the damage to carbon. I am not sure I'd even call what you have there a "crack."

    again, what do you weigh? what is your FTP? what  will you be putting out in power in that ONE race... 

    thinking you may be ok to ride that for a few weeks, then have it dealt with.. 
  • Thanks @Scott Dinhofer, I don't have a firm quote from Calfee, but it sounds like Appleman won't be a big savings (maybe none). The attraction to appleman is that he could most likely have it done in time for my 70.3 on 8/13 and I would really like to race on my P3 instead of my road bike. I really trust the opinion of my friend that recommended Appleman, but I also figured I would ask around to see if anyone else had good or bad things to say. I appreciate your whole-hearted endorsement of Calfee.

    I appreciate your feedback that I could probably ride it in my race. I feel the same way (Especially considering, I think that damage to the chain stay was done a while ago, and I've actually ridden a lot of miles on it with that damage already). But if I can get it repaired in a couple weeks, that would be ideal.

    Thanks a ton for the feedback!
    -Rob
  • Calfee has a great national reputation, that's why they are the first name mentioned when it comes to fixing any carbon frame.  You can trust their work which is very important when you might be bombing down a hill on that frame at 50mph with nothing to protect you from the pavement other than a few millimeters of lycra. 

    With that said, fixing carbon is also not rocket science...   Especially in a spot that several of us think you could actually (probably) ride on even if you didn't fix it.  A good friend with a  lot of cycling experience highly recommending someone's work (Appleman) would be good enough for me (but remember I'm also a risk taker and think I'm invincible...).
  • think I'm invincible...).
    you mean you are not?  :o last time I follow you down a hill! :#
  • think I'm invincible...).
    you mean you are not?  :o last time I follow you down a hill! :#
    As scrawny as you are now, you wouldn't be following me down any hills for all that long before getting dropped anyways!
  • Thanks again guys!
  • think I'm invincible...).
    you mean you are not?  :o last time I follow you down a hill! :#
    As scrawny as you are now, you wouldn't be following me down any hills for all that long before getting dropped anyways!
    This has nothing to do with weight, more about lack of ummm, stones... by comparison.. 
  • Hey guys, just an FYI, I got my tri bike back yesterday (just in time for my 8/13 70.3)! I had to pay an extra ~$100+ to have it overnight shipped so my bike shop could rebuild it on the day I had reserved an appointment (yesterday), but I got it! It took it out for a ride & it felt great! :) Thanks again for all the advice!
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