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Ian Kurth 2017 IMMT race report. Training indoors, racing outdoors.

Ian Kurth 2017 IMMT race report.  Training indoors, racing outdoors.

 


Background information:

This was my eighth IM, and fifth full season racing with EN (joined for Nov ’12 Outseason).

●      Age 43,

●      FTP 305,

●      VDOT 53,

●      wt 172

 

 

 

 

2000 times - IMFL

2012 times - IMWI

2013 times - IMWI

2014 times - IMWI

2014 times - IMFL*

2015 times - IMMT

2016 times - IMWI

2017 times - IMMT

Swim

1:30:44

1:20:02

1:24:52

1:15:05

Swim Cancelled

1:14:45

1:16:58

1:20:17

T1

0:09:58

0:08:47

0:07:44

0:06:50

N/A

0:05:43

0:06:53

0:05:29

Bike

6:14:38

6:28:16

5:54:48

5:42:21

5:33:39

5:28:54

5:32:26

5:13:21

T2

0:07:25

0:05:22

0:02:57

0:02:38

0:02:53

0:01:39

0:02:07

0:01:45

Run

5:45:25

4:10:54

4:04:02

3:41:00

3:48:36

3:55:20

3:42:35

3:47:13

Total

13:48:10

12:13:21

11:34:23

10:47:54

9:25:07*

10:46:21

10:40:59

10:28:05

 

 

 

 

Training lead up:

Overall, I effectively doubled down on last year’s experiment of leveraging indoor swimming, cycling and running in various ways to achieve a training effect within my personal and professional time constraints.  This means spending plenty of time in the pain cave training while watching Netflix and listening to the Jocko Podcast.  In addition to eliciting an extremely efficient and effective training dose, I can double dip my time and keep up with my various media outlet binges.

 

Swim:

Last season I decided to do all of my training on the Vasa erg in my “swim without getting wet” experiment.  I continued this approach this season with goals of increasing volume and sustainable cadence while on the machine.  I did less intense intervals in favor of more volume and longer, steady sets.  A derivative of this approach came in the form of the famed “Red Mist” workout being modified for the Vasa.  In a nutshell, the Red Mist workout is a 10x400m workout increasing in effort/pace over the course of the session.  I created an adapted workout for the Vasa, and used this scheme for frequent sessions of 1-4k “swims”.  I aimed to hit 10-12k per week for the final 8 weeks of the build.  Over the course of the season, this again yielded positive benefits.  My infrequent race swims were faster than prior year’s races, and more importantly, I came out of the water without fatigue.  Unfortunately, during the IMMT swim, I was battling some calf cramping which slowed my pace, but otherwise, I remain extremely satisfied with the Vasa as a time efficient substitute for pool swimming at this phase of my life.

 

Bike:

My approach to cycling this year again involved riding about 90% indoors.  My reasons are primarily for convenience, effectiveness, efficiency, and safety.  With the exception of participating in the Blue Ridge Camp in Boone, NC, commuting to work, and obviously races, I was riding indoors. This included about seven 5-hour, indoor, long ride sweat fests, and numerous 3-hour rides.  I again heavily leveraged the Zwift platform.  This season our Endurance Nation team developed a weekly ABP ride on Sunday mornings which was well attended and very effective.  Through the magic of technology, we could ride “together” on Zwift including conversing over a gaming chat platform.  These rides served as a springboard to many of my century rides.  In addition to these weekly long rides, many of us participated in early morning weekday Zwift races.  These proved to be very motivational, competitive, and ultimately effective in driving gains.

 

 

Run:

I continued my fairly extreme run frequency and durability experiment.  I began this experiment last season with 42 straight weeks of running, including 4 months of greater than 200 miles.  I continued this approach this season, again running EVERY day from the week after IMWI in September to the last taper week in August prior to IMMT totaling 47 straight weeks of running more than 40 miles per week.  The vast majority of these miles were on the treadmill, and with the exception of races, were generally at Z1-2 pace.  The idea for this extreme approach to frequency and durability stemmed from a thread on slowtwitch that I modified for myself, keeping the intent of the challenge in mind.

 

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/So_you_want_a_challenge_-_Half_assed_or_Full_on_Ass_You_choose.___Alternate_title:_Do_it_right_or_wasting_your_time._P1051716/

 

 


 

RUN DURABILITY:

 


 

 

 

 

 

Lead up:

The whole crew set out for the 2-day drive “Minivan style” from Wausau, WI to Mont-Tremblant, Quebec.  We had a terrific, relatively uneventful road trip, thanks in no small part to intensive, immersive training in the use of headphones, ipads and the backseat babysitter (DVD player). As this is an apolitical report, I will summarize the current climate in a very timely and relevant billboard we encountered on our journey to visit our northern friends:

 

 



 

 

Mont-Tremblant is a terrific venue for families.  Lots of things to do and the crew was intent on knocking off our required activities to include: zip lining, luging, obstacle course, cartwheels on varied urban terrain, watching the solar eclipse, shopping, eating, and posing.

 

 



 

 



 

 

Race Day:

Got up early, with the usual pre-race preparations.  Our hotel was a convenient  5-minute walk from transition.  I got everything set in record time.  It was a little bit of a hike to the swim start, where we briefly met for a team picture, got the wetsuit on, gave a kiss to Jen, and put the game face on.

 



 

Swim:

This was my first self-seed swim start.  I have to say that I am a fan, as my usual IM swim experience involves being pummeled in a 1-hour moving bar fight.  This swim involved very little contact, and I swam without obstruction basically along the buoy line.  My swim fitness was great and my swim mechanics were rusty, but adequate.  Unfortunately, I had to manage some calf cramps throughout the second half of the swim.  Pretty typical swim otherwise, aside from it feeling long.  The swim is just a commute to the bike.  Exiting the water, I didn’t dwell on the swim and just kept moving.  Process oriented.

 



 

2017:  1:20:17---159 AG, 940 OA - 159/263 in AG

2016:  1:16:58 --- 87 AG, 942 OA

2015:  1:14:45 --- 158 AG, 759 OA

2014*:  N/A      --- Swim canceled

2014:  1:15:05 --- 153 AG, 851 OA

2013:  1:24:52 --- 167 AG, 1231 OA

2012:  1:20:02 --- 171 AG, 1233 OA

 

T1:

This is where I start the day-long process of moving through the field.  KISS concept.  Goal: “best in class”.  I decided to skip the wetsuit strippers in favor of removing it while running the long transition from swim exit to the tents. I grabbed my bag, removed my shoes and helmet, found a volunteer to replace my wetsuit in the bag, and took off.  I put on my helmet while jogging to my bike (great position).  Shoes on, and go.

 

2017:     5:29 - IMMT - 19/263 in AG

2016:      6:53 - IMWI

2015:      5:43 - IMMT

2014*:    NA Swim canceled

2014:      6:50 - IMWI

2013:      7:44 - IMWI

2012:      8:47 - IMWI

 

Bike:

One of the downsides of not riding outside is that the “metrics” from indoor riding don’t translate exactly to racing conditions.  I observed this pretty early in the bike when my power numbers and heart rate didn’t match to what I would expect, based on how hard I was riding.  My race plan involved racing to a power range I had proven I could hold during many long rides.  The plan also involved “cross checking” these to HR caps I similarly established.  Initially, my power seemed low, and my HR seemed high.  I “worked” to lower my HR as quickly as possible, but it seemed to always be at the upper end of my cap limits.  Keeping an eye on this pattern, I ate and drank plenty taking in about 2,000 calories, and ample water and sodium, peeing about 5 times total.  I was definitely moving through the field, despite very low power.  About ⅔ of the way through the bike, I decided to roll the dice a bit and press the bike on the out-and-back portion of the highway.  While my power rose only to my IM target, my HR bumped into the low 140’s (a range typical for a HIM).  I continued to move steadily through the field knowing that  I wouldn’t know how this 1.5 hour effort would play out until late in the run.

 

 



 

 

 

 

 Over T1 and the bike, I passed over 800 people moving from 930th to 130th place OA…  Lots of wind shadows… 


 

Despite this ramping of effort, I fell short of my goal watts.  A .65 IF is pretty conservative, and I suspect is a product of an artificially low power reading vs. an FTP set in an upright position (not in aero).  My time indicates that I was definitely slippery as a benefit of aero tweaks, and disciplined in keeping my head down while riding.  I cut about 20 minutes off my bike from 2 years ago here.

 

 


 

 

2017:    5:13:21 (21.1 mph)       ---          21 AG, 130 OA - 12th/263 fastest bike in AG

[2016:   5:32:26 (20.21 mph)       ---         21 AG, 162 OA]

[2015:   5:28:54 (20.43 mph)       ---         66 AG, 326 OA]

[2014*:  5:33:39 (20.14 mph)       ---         71 AG, 362 OA]

[2014:  5:42:21 (19.6 mph)         ---         76 AG, 328 OA]

[2013:   5:54:48 (19.0 mph)         ---         86 AG, 520 OA]

[2012:   6:28:16 (17.3 mph)         ---         166 AG, 1045 OA]

 

 

T2:

No major issues. Quick and efficient. Goal:  “Best in class”.  I ran into T2, grabbed my bag and dumped it.  Socks on, shoes on, grabbed my Ziploc go bag and headed out. I accomplished my objective with the 2nd fastest T2 in my AG.

 

2017: 1:45  -  IMMT - 2/263 fastest T2 in AG

[2016: 2:07] -  IMWI

[2015: 1:39] -  IMMT

[2014: 2:52] -  IMFL

[2014:  2:38] - IMWI

[2013: 2:57] -  IMWI

[2012: 5:22] -  IMWI

 

 

Run:

I again wanted to have a crack at a 3:30 marathon.  During training leading up to the race, I thought I had the fitness to capture this goal.  However, obeying my HR over the early miles and the hills on the outbound required me to quickly readjust my expectations.   I ran at the upper edge of conservative, intending to slowly increase my effort and ultimately HR.  Using RPE as primary, HR secondary, and pace as a tertiary metric, I managed to keep the HR pretty steady until about mile 18.  It is here that I hit dark spot during miles 18-22, and my pace, and HR dropped a bit.  Not too bad, but in retrospect definitely could have been improved. I rallied for the last 3 miles or so and had a decent push to the line.

 

It was great to see all the EN racers in full force.  The racing red jerseys are easy to spot, and by and large they are always RUNNING.  It is a proud and gritty team, wearing the shield honorably.  Definitely helpful to see some familiar faces, and knowing they were also suffering, but still fighting!

 



 

My family was stationed in town.  I was able to see them at the swim exit, and several times during the run.  While the racer’s day is tough, enduring a long day of spectating and coordinating logistics is equally difficult.  I really appreciate seeing so many family and friends taking time out of their lives to come to the race and cheer.  In her typical fashion, Jen brought terrific enthusiasm and is now grooming an equally effective new generation of Ironman spectating extraordinaire's.  They had swashbuckling fun as a band of buccaneers. 

 

 



 



 

No question I had an easier day than her.  She once again did an awesome job being an enthusiastic cheerleader, and she does a terrific job sending a lot of energy my way during the race.  My parents also made the trip from Michigan to spectate.  They have been at all 8 IM’s I have raced, and also provide grounding as well as great support and enthusiasm. I am very grateful.

 

As IM’s typically do, the race becomes really difficult near the end. I believe that spending so much time on the treadmill and trainer helps develop the skillset of “detachment”.  When things get difficult, staying process oriented in the moment and not thinking about how much longer there is to go is supremely important in continuing to run.  Having been in similar positions countless times in training helps sharpen this ability to continually grind on.  When I finally crested the last hill about 3 miles out, I regrouped and pressed to the finish. I found my family in the finishing chute, and gave them a smile and fist pump. 

 

 

 

 

 

2017:    3:47:13 ---  17 AG, 101 OA- 29/263 fastest run in AG

[2016:   3:42:35  --- 10 AG, 98 OA]

[2015:   3:55:20  ---  30 AG, 184 OA]

[2014*: 3:48:36  --- 46 AG, 259 OA]

[2014:  3:41:00 ---  33 AG, 164 OA]

[2013:   4:04:02  ---  59 AG, 349 OA]

[2012:   4:10:54  --- 127 AG, 694 OA]

2017: Finish Time:  10:28:05

[2016:  Finish Time:  10:40:59]

[2015 Finish Time:  10:46:21]

[2014* Finish Time:  9:25:07*]

[2014 Finish Time:  10:47:54]

[2013 Finish Time:  11:34:23]

[2012 Finish Time:  12:13:21]

 

 

 



 

 

 

 


 

Summary:

This race was another PR for me at the Ironman distance and a 20-minute course PR at IMMT. Over the past 3 seasons, I have had consistent sub-11 hour results and reasonably solid OA and AG placings.  I feel another big leap forward will occur when I can pair a solid bike with a sub-3:30 IM marathon that I believe I have in me.  I feel comfortable with my race execution, having experimented a bit with pushing the bike in areas.  I have a better sense of how this affects my run.   I will take these lessons into IMWI in a couple of weeks where I feel execution will be paramount as I probably won’t have shed all of the fatigue from this race prior to arriving at the start line.

 

Thank you for all the support from friends and family during this Ironman season, and to the Endurance Nation family and Timex, ODZ, EN and Wausau teammates who consistently contribute accountability, wisdom, motivation, restraint, and applause when needed.  I am very grateful.

 

 



 

 

 

 

 

 

Tagged:

Comments

  • Congrats on a great race, lots of takeaways from your training to be applied in the coming months as well. Thanks for sharing!

  • Great race and great report.  As we discussed yesterday, I believe we have discovered a powerful tool (Zwift) a ways to use that tool as an advantage on race day.  I really appreciate your leadership and example on how to get the most out of indoor training and also your approach to running.

    Congratulations on a great race!  Good luck in 2 (less than) weeks!
  • Congratulations on the great race! It was fun following you during the day. I really enjoyed your race report. Wow, you really pack a lot of information into that report.

    I also notice that disparity between the indoor power and the power outside. For me, my HR is definitely higher for the same watts when riding outside. I think part of it is the balancing of the bike as well as I actually have to pay attention to what's going on :). Like you, I looked more at my HR for my last IM instead of just trying to hit a watt target. I used the watts more as a limiter so I didn't go crazy during any one part. I only have a few data points, so hopefully I can get this dialed in more before next year. 
  • edited August 28, 2017 4:35PM
    Hey @Ian Kurth

    Fantastic report.  Congrats on another great race.  I like how you challenge conventional wisdom and are willing go out on a limb with your training.  Although that 10-hour trainer ride thing crosses into the insane realm.  The fact that you haven't seen a drop-off in your swim performance without getting wet is pretty cool.  The fact that you got calf cramps during the race is probably a result of not getting in a lot of volume in the pool/OW, but probably a worthwhile trade-off.

    I suspect a PM issue on the bike.  You had recently raced a couple of times before IMMT, so I don't think you would have felt lost in the novelty of riding outside like you might have had you been exclusively on the trainer for 5-6 months.

    And I still think you're capable of that 3:30 run.  I would suggest mixing things up just a bit next time.  That distance chart looks like 20 or so weeks of steady 50mpw, then a "build" of steady 40mpw, one week of taper, race.  Your body was so used to that weekly routine, I would have skipped the taper so as not to shock the system - really.  Plus, if I recall correctly, you capped your long runs at 13-14 miles.  I'm no physiologist, but at some point I would assume that your body stopped stressing, recovering, and improving.  Permafit?  You could drop that mileage to the 30-5mpw range for 3-4 weeks (during which time you could bike focus?), then do a nice 5- or 6-week true build where you grow the distance to 45-50mpw, increasing the volume primarily via the long run (I agree that a 20-miler isn't necessary, but personally think three or four runs in the 16-17 mile range are really helpful - at least for me) and perhaps a mid-week run at MP.  I'm just spit-balling, of course, but there are a lot of traditional build/peak/taper models out there that became traditional because they work.  With your engine, work ethic, smarts, experience and support system, I still think you've got untapped potential.  Which is kinda scary.  I look forward to watching your next chapter.

    MR


  • Ian, Fantastic report. I really enjoyed the year to year comparison and it clearly shows how the plan works. I had a great time in Tremblant and seeing you on course was a great boost. Congrats on a great finish.
  • I agree with @Mike Roberts ...you have more room to improve on the run for sure.   I've been consistently delivering run PRs in triathlon and rarely do I exceed 40MPW for IM training and 30MPW for HIM.   IMO targeted quality work is much more important than more work.

    I was interested to see your validation comments on the VASA.  After seeing you and @PatrickMcCrann , two of the biggest VASA fanboys, both have mediocre swims (by your standards) I began wondering what the real value is.   Clearly you see the value from a time admin standpoint, but I haven't seen anything that would suggest VASA is a key tool to become a faster swimmer.    I like gadgets and toyed with the idea of picking up a VASA but my gym and pool is super easy from an admin standpoint so I don't see the value.    
  • Oh....and your family has one of the coolest things going with the whole costume dealio.    How much fun
  • Hey @Ian Kurth
    Great report and a great race.  I'm currently trying to figure out if I can get back into the IM game and I think I'll re-read your report over and over again to see how I can streamline some of my training with more if the indoors stuff.  I also have a Vasa at home, but have rarely used it.  Do you think the calf cramp could have been in any way related to the different position your feet are in when you're actually kicking and traveling through water as opposed to simply hanging straight down off the back of the Vasa?  I love that this team has strong (physically and mentally) people in it who are willing to experiment on themselves to push the best practices envelope when trying to fit inside family/time/logistics constraints, then share with others what they think worked or didn't...   Or what may have worked "good enough" that the training time savings may have been worth a few minutes here or there on race day.  Finally, nice job on the efficient transitions, a true art form when really focused on.

    Good Luck in Wisconsin.  I can't wait to hear how you manage recovery and carry your fitness forward.

    Also a question for you since you have done MT and WIS a few times each now.  Which do you think is an easier/harder course.  i.e. "If" you were able to ride at exactly the same NP, say your 196W, which course do you think would be faster and by how much?  I have a guess, but would rather hear your thoughts first... 
     
    --JW
     
  • Congrats!  Really interesting approach to training with swimming primarily on the Vasa and focusing on run durability.  Seeing how a number of ENers have had success with the Vasa definitely makes me interested.  Just would need a place to hide it from the wife. :)

  • Also a question for you since you have done MT and WIS a few times each now.  Which do you think is an easier/harder course.  i.e. "If" you were able to ride at exactly the same NP, say your 196W, which course do you think would be faster and by how much?  I have a guess, but would rather hear your thoughts first... 
     
     
    having done both, I have my thoughts, looking to see Ian's as well. Can't believe @Ian Kurth is doing WI that soon, Kill it!
  • Congratulations Ian.  Great report.  I totally agree about the treadmill and trainer time being mental training as well. Love the detail.
  • Thanks all for the comments and feedback!  I really appreciate the discussion points.

    @Edwin Croucher  - Great to see you out there on course!  Strong work!

    @Brian Hagan,  @Tom Box - There is definitely a growing community of competitive, time constrained triathletes training indoors...

    @Tim Sullivan - I hear what you are saying, but the disconnect I was seeing on my PM was much larger than I would expect.  I know that the HR can be variable and different indoors and out particularly with oddball weather conditions.  It is through this lens that I give myself operating ranges for both power and HR to use on race day.  It was just a bit frustrating that I couldn't reconcile the PM readings I was seeing.
    I suspect a PM issue on the bike.  You had recently raced a couple of times before IMMT, so I don't think you would have felt lost in the novelty of riding outside like you might have had you been exclusively on the trainer for 5-6 months.
    @Mike Roberts  - I agree.  It's not like this was the first time I raced this season...  Both of my HIM bike's were concordant with what I was seeing indoors etc.  I think the PM might need some love.  Now, what to do knowing this, and not likely being able to fix it prior to IMWI...

    John Withrow said:
    Do you think the calf cramp could have been in any way related to the different position your feet are in when you're actually kicking and traveling through water as opposed to simply hanging straight down off the back of the Vasa? 

    Also a question for you since you have done MT and WIS a few times each now.  Which do you think is an easier/harder course.  i.e. "If" you were able to ride at exactly the same NP, say your 196W, which course do you think would be faster and by how much?  I have a guess, but would rather hear your thoughts first... 
     
    --JW
     
    @John Withrow - I am not a kicker at all in the water.  When I do kick sets, I go backwards. Most of my life, I have been susceptible to cramps, and I suspect the leg cramps were related to not much water time and bad luck.  I haven't been able to figure out a pattern, but I do have a couple of tricks to manage them if they strike.  Unfortunately, it does mean I need to slow down if they do show up.

    @Scott Dinhofer, @John Withrow -  I think IMMT is a faster course than IMWI, probably by about 15 min on average.  As you know, the bike at IMMT (while hilly) is not very technical and reasonably predictable.  The roads are also loads better at IMMT.  However, I think that the run is a bit faster at IMWI as it is generally flatter and the more frequent crowd support helps.  I think the run at IMWI may also be faster relative to the field because everyone blows themselves up on bike, and mails it in on the run.  The swims are a wash in my opinion.

    I agree with @Mike Roberts ...you have more room to improve on the run for sure.   I've been consistently delivering run PRs in triathlon and rarely do I exceed 40MPW for IM training and 30MPW for HIM.   IMO targeted quality work is much more important than more work.

    I was interested to see your validation comments on the VASA.  After seeing you and @PatrickMcCrann , two of the biggest VASA fanboys, both have mediocre swims (by your standards) I began wondering what the real value is.   Clearly you see the value from a time admin standpoint, but I haven't seen anything that would suggest VASA is a key tool to become a faster swimmer.    I like gadgets and toyed with the idea of picking up a VASA but my gym and pool is super easy from an admin standpoint so I don't see the value.    
    @JeremyBehler - Thanks for your thoughts.  I agree that mixing in some targeted work will likely help, and I really appreciate @Mike Roberts suggestion vary the build up.  That is all in the master plan moving forward.  My more recent approach to running really stems from a huge respect for the injury risk that infrequent, high intensity running presents.  I would rather run "safer" at lower intensity, gain aerobic fitness and leg durability, and stay consistently in the game uninjured. I can get my requisite intensity with the bike and swim.  I agree that there is a happy medium that I could gravitate towards now that I have built a significant run base.

    With regards to your comments about the Vasa, here is my response to @Dawn Cass on the VASA thread when she asked about whether I thought a Vasa might help a good swimmer with convenient access to a pool:  @Gabe Peterson

    "When used consistently, I believe that the Vasa will help make you a stronger and better swimmer.  The "best" way to use it is debatable but probably falls in the realm of a swim supplement - adding to, but not replacing water time.  Where you fall in the spectrum of increased or decreased supplementation depends on your life circumstances and motivation.  If swimming is convenient for you, and you have the time, then your vasa supplementation will be less and might not be worth the investment for the swim gains yielded.  I fall on the other end of the spectrum, with swimming time being inconvenient and I use it almost exclusively - and certainly more than generally advised.  @PatrickMcCrann and @robin sarner are both good swimmers and have used it almost exclusively as well to good advantage.  I know my answer sounds a bit wishy washy, but I remain an advocate, and if you have the financial means, and the motivation to use, it is a terrific piece of equipment."  

    In your case, @JeremyBehler - I could see you using a Vasa to cut your swimming training time in half, holding par on your already strong swim, and apply the time savings to more bike/run work for still more overall gains.  YMMV.

  • I'm just sitting here with some popcorn taking all this in.  
     
    Great job on your results @Ian Kurth and thanks for sharing all your experience. 
  • I love reading your race reports @Ian Kurth! I always walk away with lots of things to do and lots to think about. Really appreciate you sharing!

    Congratulations on a super race and the continued improvement.
  • @Ian Kurth, great race and report! It was nice to briefly chat with you in Boone on the Mt Mitchell day and really learn from your comments on the forums. You have a wealth knowledge but as mentioned a lot of untapped physical potential. The biggest takeaway for me in all of this is the balance in which you maintain your priorities, the fun you and your family have and the leadership you provide! Thanks!
  • Ian Love your reports and detail... Congrats on the impressive progression of results...  

    Inside vs. Outside - I did IMTX a few years back almost exclusively on the trainer/TM.... While I believe 100% specificity is best, this is the next best thing, hierarchy of effectiveness has to go to the trainer(its just harder than outside specially if AERO I'd almost say of the 3 biking on a trainer inside maybe even better fitness wise than outside) , next the TM (while warmer not fully engaging weight and muscles)  , and lastly has to be the VASA (no real leg engagement and ZERO water feel).... Would you agree on that hierarchy?

    Looking forward to IMWI
  • Ian, thats a nice report and what a great race !

    You have a very good oiled machine, training inside is a thing I tried this year and it helped me increase my FTP and concentration, the only problem is to keep up the execution as if I was outside.

    I am one of the lucky person that can see the pool from his bedroom, so I guess the VASA wouldnt be something helpful for me and I have difficulty to have zero water feel and thinking I am working on the swim !

    When looking at your 2015 IMMT results, do you think part of your PR is related to the cooler weather we got this year compare to 2015 which was an open oven all day ?

    Again, was nice to meet you and the mojo on the run, you looked really strong ! good luck in your really close next race =)
  • What an informative race report - have to read it a couple of times to let it all absorb!
  • @Josh Church, @Tom Glynn, @Rich Stanbaugh - Thanks for your comments!  I'm glad you found some helpful nuggets.
     
    tim cronk said:
    Ian Love your reports and detail... Congrats on the impressive progression of results...  

    Inside vs. Outside - I did IMTX a few years back almost exclusively on the trainer/TM.... While I believe 100% specificity is best, this is the next best thing, hierarchy of effectiveness has to go to the trainer(its just harder than outside specially if AERO I'd almost say of the 3 biking on a trainer inside maybe even better fitness wise than outside) , next the TM (while warmer not fully engaging weight and muscles)  , and lastly has to be the VASA (no real leg engagement and ZERO water feel).... Would you agree on that hierarchy?

    Looking forward to IMWI
    @tim cronk - Thank you for your comments and opinions.  While I agree that specificity is important, I don't believe that it is 100% necessary to drive consistent gains, nor even that 100% specificity is even the best way to achieve improvement.  I'm pretty sure that based on your comments regarding IMTX that we are mostly in agreement on this as well.  I don't disagree with your hierarchy of weighting these options in terms of their degree of training specificity for the reasons that you outline.  What I would clarify is that it is my opinion that each could be used almost exclusively to capture the desired training effect.  As long as there is enough "specific" training (outdoor cycling, running, and swimming in water (OWS best)) to feel confident in one's ability to perform on race day.

    When looking at your 2015 IMMT results, do you think part of your PR is related to the cooler weather we got this year compare to 2015 which was an open oven all day ?

    Again, was nice to meet you and the mojo on the run, you looked really strong ! good luck in your really close next race =)
    @Francis Picard - Thanks.  Yes - I do believe that weather conditions this year were helpful in a faster time, particularly when comparing to the steambath of heat that dominated IMMT in 2015.


  • Ian,

    Congrats on your PR race, your season, and grit. Not sure what you do for a living, but science is missing out big if you are a writer or something.

    It is hard for me to wrap my head around you as an athlete. Your volumes make me uncomfortable to call myself a triathlete. Your work load and consistency is epic.  I have never seen a TP report from a pro, but I assume it looks something like yours. "Permafit" is pretty tight. I was thinking robofit. I am hopeful to meet up with you in Madison... just to make sure you are actually flesh and blood.

    "I would rather run "safer" at lower intensity, gain aerobic fitness and leg durability, and stay consistently in the game uninjured. I can get my requisite intensity with the bike and swim."

    It looks like you have already decided to move your run training platform based on MR and JBs advice. I am no expert runner, but I think your mental construct is a self limiter. Looking at your times, your marathon has not budged since 2014. (The times are excellent BTW). While you are one hell of a conditioned machine on the permafit plan, and you are proving you can turn in very nice run splits this way, I believe you will need to ditch the "safe plan" if you want a 3:30. In a physical sense, that means risking your health/body parts to get there. So, my only question is - why do this? What are you trying to achieve? Are you planning a KQ? Turning pro? I ask because you have achieved some next level fitness here and are nailing very solid results and doing so injury free.



  • @tim cronk -  While I agree that specificity is important, I don't believe that it is 100% necessary to drive consistent gains, nor even that 100% specificity is even the best way to achieve improvement. I'm pretty sure that based on your comments regarding IMTX that we are mostly in agreement on this as well.  

    @Ian Kurth Didnt mean to derail this awesome race report and results... Sorry if I wasnt 1--% clear but YES I DO agree with you.. In fact I think the control (being able to control the exact amount of time, intensity,load day after day, week after week) that indoor training gives us makes it superior to outside training to accomplish fitness goals... Race goals need specificity which you did also address :-)
  • Ian, always great to read about your prep and domination of a race!  Your focus on improvement year over year is impressive.  I've no doubt that you will get that sub 3:30 marathon.  No. Doubt.  Me being me, I've no advice on how to get there, but the dudes above have already chimed in and I'm sure your plan is already evolving to attack it post IMWI.  

    Now, I have to comment on one of the highlights...Jen the pirate!  I LOVE how she has recruited the kiddos into her scallywag crew!  I'm sure you already know (and have acknowledged above) you are a lucky bugger to have the love of all those pirates!  Looking forward to tracking you on your next adventure in IMWI.  

    GO BLUE!
  • Ian - Thanks for the detailed report, with he insight into how you have managed indoor training to a constantly improving IM performance, with NO "bad" races along the way (after your first). 

    "I feel another big leap forward will occur when I can pair a solid bike with a sub-3:30 IM marathon that I believe I have in me."

    Well, yes that's true, let's investigate that a bit, in light of your training approach. First off, you would also take a big leap forward if you cut your swim time by 15 minutes, which, given your fitness and strength, you are fully capable of. Like you, I go backwards when I kick. But in my 50s, I still was doing 66-68' IM swims, on 2-3 hours of swimming/week, maybe 8-9,000m per week max, avg  6-7 K. I'm with Tim - the Vasa is a good adjunct, but no substitute for real swimming, which is so technique dependent. Water is 1000 times as dense as air. The key to swimming is understanding/feeling precisely what your hands and arms have to be doing, the angles they need to be at, to gain the best leverage in that environment. Vasa simply doesn't provide that opportunity. I get it if you don't have the time to swim outside the home, but recognize that YOU could easily find 15' within a year via the pool.

    Second, the bike. I'm a big believer, and you have confirmed that belief, that indoor training can be just as effective, and certain more efficient, that riding the roads. I've seen enough pros and KQers who ride close to 100% indoors to realise that it is possible, and preferable for some folks. You also seem to be having fun while you do it. Keep it up, but recognize that at your level, the gains will become more and more marginal. Even so, there's little doubt that 5 hours in in your sights.

    Finally, the run. I'm also a convert to the durability focus. Thanks for the inspiration to run every day - this past build I was up to 6/week, and have toyed with the idea of daily starting next week when I come off transition from my long-course race last week. BUT...I'm also a believer that to run faster, you have to run faster. Judicious placement of some interval work on the track (or a treadmill), @ distance of 200-1600 m, @ speeds of sub 5K to 10K, provides a level of running strength and form perfection unavailable simply from volume or hill work. The winter is the best time for this. Even running a 5K race every 2-4 weeks for 2-3 months might be all that's needed.

    Finally, execution. I'll contrast two quotes from your report, then suggest another tweak to the TM centric program. "I believe that spending so much time on the treadmill and trainer helps develop the skillset of “detachment”.  When things get difficult, staying process oriented in the moment and not thinking about how much longer there is to go is supremely important in continuing to run.  Having been in similar positions countless times in training helps sharpen this ability to continually grind on." vs "...I managed to keep the HR pretty steady until about mile 18.  It is here that I hit dark spot during miles 18-22, and my pace, and HR dropped a bit.  Not too bad, but in retrospect definitely could have been improved."  There's nothing like the last 30-60' of a long (2:15-2:45) run to build the mental strength to manage that on race day. I've practiced that on both the TM (rarely) and outdoors (usually), but in either case, having that as a specific point of conscious emphasis on the 2-3 longest runs before an IM, that you can then mentally draw on race day, can help. The key is, during training, forcing a faster pace in that last half hour of training, when you least want to do it.

    Add that all up, you're well under 10 hours someday in the near future.
  • Doug Sutherland said:
    So, my only question is - why do this? What are you trying to achieve? Are you planning a KQ? Turning pro? I ask because you have achieved some next level fitness here and are nailing very solid results and doing so injury free.
    @Doug Sutherland - Thank you for the thoughtful reply and comments.  I like the daily grind and the required discipline.  I enjoy the season planning and experimenting with differing training stimuli to drive improvements.  Racing is certainly fun, particularly long course as it offers the added dimension of racing strategy, mental toughness, and discipline in execution.  And while I appreciate the uniqueness that triathlon as a sport offers in the form of providing competition metrics and times to present a "validation" of my training efforts and a venue for comparison amongst my peers, racing is not my primary motivator, nor is achieving a certain ranking or status.  Personal improvement in its variety of forms seems to bubble up for me most often as my "why".

    Mixing things up on the run side in the future is part of the plan. Acknowledging that the TP graph does look pretty robotic, it is only because I set a weekly mileage goal and then I hold myself accountable to that goal.  This daily discipline gathers momentum over the season.  Because of my varied work and personal schedule, while the weekly totals appear flatlined, there actually is quite a bit of granular variability that develops over a given week.  Sometimes I'll only run a couple of miles a day for a few days.  But of course, this may "require" back to back 10-12 milers later in the week to meet my weekly goal.  In holding to these goals over the year, I reaffirm the habit of consistency and discipline to stay in the game long term. 

    Looking ahead to 2018, I plan to maintain the daily running consistency, but decrease the volume, and introduce more varied terrain, and paces. Thank you to everyone who pointed out one of the limiters to a volume only approach.

    @Trish Marshall - Thanks for the nice note!  Jen and the kids had a great time, but I have to admit, I am kinda afraid of what IMWI might bring...  I have stumbled into a couple of "secret" meetings recently, so I know something is likely in the works.  Great to hear from you and as always, GO BLUE!

    Ian - Thanks for the detailed report, with he insight into how you have managed indoor training to a constantly improving IM performance, with NO "bad" races along the way (after your first). 

    "I feel another big leap forward will occur when I can pair a solid bike with a sub-3:30 IM marathon that I believe I have in me."

    Well, yes that's true, let's investigate that a bit, in light of your training approach. First off, you would also take a big leap forward if you cut your swim time by 15 minutes, which, given your fitness and strength, you are fully capable of. Like you, I go backwards when I kick. But in my 50s, I still was doing 66-68' IM swims, on 2-3 hours of swimming/week, maybe 8-9,000m per week max, avg  6-7 K. I'm with Tim - the Vasa is a good adjunct, but no substitute for real swimming, which is so technique dependent. Water is 1000 times as dense as air. The key to swimming is understanding/feeling precisely what your hands and arms have to be doing, the angles they need to be at, to gain the best leverage in that environment. Vasa simply doesn't provide that opportunity. I get it if you don't have the time to swim outside the home, but recognize that YOU could easily find 15' within a year via the pool.

    Second, the bike. I'm a big believer, and you have confirmed that belief, that indoor training can be just as effective, and certain more efficient, that riding the roads. I've seen enough pros and KQers who ride close to 100% indoors to realise that it is possible, and preferable for some folks. You also seem to be having fun while you do it. Keep it up, but recognize that at your level, the gains will become more and more marginal. Even so, there's little doubt that 5 hours in in your sights.

    Finally, the run. I'm also a convert to the durability focus. Thanks for the inspiration to run every day - this past build I was up to 6/week, and have toyed with the idea of daily starting next week when I come off transition from my long-course race last week. BUT...I'm also a believer that to run faster, you have to run faster. Judicious placement of some interval work on the track (or a treadmill), @ distance of 200-1600 m, @ speeds of sub 5K to 10K, provides a level of running strength and form perfection unavailable simply from volume or hill work. The winter is the best time for this. Even running a 5K race every 2-4 weeks for 2-3 months might be all that's needed.

    Finally, execution. I'll contrast two quotes from your report, then suggest another tweak to the TM centric program. "I believe that spending so much time on the treadmill and trainer helps develop the skillset of “detachment”.  When things get difficult, staying process oriented in the moment and not thinking about how much longer there is to go is supremely important in continuing to run.  Having been in similar positions countless times in training helps sharpen this ability to continually grind on." vs "...I managed to keep the HR pretty steady until about mile 18.  It is here that I hit dark spot during miles 18-22, and my pace, and HR dropped a bit.  Not too bad, but in retrospect definitely could have been improved."  There's nothing like the last 30-60' of a long (2:15-2:45) run to build the mental strength to manage that on race day. I've practiced that on both the TM (rarely) and outdoors (usually), but in either case, having that as a specific point of conscious emphasis on the 2-3 longest runs before an IM, that you can then mentally draw on race day, can help. The key is, during training, forcing a faster pace in that last half hour of training, when you least want to do it.

    Add that all up, you're well under 10 hours someday in the near future.
    @Al Truscott - I know I have said this to you before, but I'll say it again... I read all of your posts, and save many of them for later reflection.  Thank you for taking the time to comment to so many on this team, and specifically to offer some advice to my situation.  Having you state that 10 hours is achievable for me is noteworthy, and didn't go unnoticed...  It is the accountability and collective wisdom of this team that is very powerful, and you are certainly responsible for a large portion!  Thank you!

    Your overall season roadmap makes sense.  I know I need to get in the water more.  I have maintained recently that the logistical costs to get to the pool aren't worth it to me at this stage of my life.  I'll put some more thought into whether this stance is just me making excuses and if/how I can make this happen for the highest yield.  My biking plan will likely be similar in the near term.  Your comments about the long run are noted, and I plan to also incorporate more mid-longish runs in the coming season.  The mental component you elude to I feel is underrated and is an area that I have recently taken more of an interest in.  I sense that this component of IM execution will be tested this weekend at IMWI where fatigue will be present, fitness won't be as sharp, and "the line" is likely to show up earlier than desired.  Excuses will be plentiful and likely juicy and it will be my task to deflect these temptations and squeeze out my best on race day.  It should be a worthy experience...
  • edited September 8, 2017 6:12PM
    @Ian Kurth aka, half machine!

    You are one of the most consistent and disciplined athletes I look forward to seeing every day out there on Strava.  I understand what it means to pull that off each day and I frequently look to that daily posting of yours to eliminate excuses.

    We are much alike regarding this comment of yours from above " I like the daily grind and the required discipline. "

    Where we differ is when it comes to race performance..........I very much enjoyed racing with you as well as seeing your entire, beautiful family at IMMT!

    Keep leading from the front Kurth!

    SS

  • Congrats on a great race Ian.  I was interested in your training approach since I also do the vast majority of my biking indoors, although I will put in some key long rides outside as I get close to my A race.  Your run volume is impressive!  I've been following all the VASA threads and have to agree with Bret Sutton that it is a great supplemental training device but doesn't replace time in the water.  Fortunately I have 2 outdoor pools within 5 mins of me but I always think of the VASA when I don't feel like swimming outdoors in the cold, or if the pool closes for lightning, or like it did the past 3 days for Hurricane Irma.  It would definitely be nice to get some swim strength indoors at times like that.  And for my final word:  "Aaaaarggh!"   That's a shout out to your wonderful pirate family of supporters!  Who can't succeed with backing like that?
  • @Shaughn Simmons - Thanks for your thoughts!  Right back at you on the Strava consistency.  Knowing you are watching helps get my ass away from my coffee cup, and onto the treadmill.  Seeing your consistency and knowing you personally helps keep me on track.  Thank you.

    @Paul Hough - With pool availability like that, and a schedule that facilitates access, I would only advocate a Vasa as a training adjunct, and not a replacement.  While more water time is ideal for progress, I believe that mixing in Vasa time (if personal circumstances permit) can certainly accelerate swimming fitness.

    Aaaargghh is right!  They were awesome, and we all enjoyed their energy!  Thanks for your comments!
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