Other than a getting a new stomach........

Deller

 Hard to say if this post should go up  in nutrition, training or here, but I'll lob it out here.    I've looked around the forums and the net to get answers but I'll toss my issue out here since this seems to be one of the more pervasive yet mysterious topics in long distance triathlon....

Both  of my Ironmans (UK  and AZ a year apart) I've had exactly the same issue.  I've gotten really sick to my stomach on the run, to the point  that i  could barely keep moving.  Any water I consumed gave me severe stomach cramps.  The first time, I wasn't with EN and didn't know  what I was doing.   This time in AZ with EN on my sided I thought I'd have a better day, but the same thing happened.  

First of all,  in AZ I stuck pretty close to my planned effort for the bike, even backing off a little towards the end to try and save my legs a little more.  Then in AZ, after about 6 miles of sticking to my run plan, I nearly froze up from nausea and stomach cramps.

So far my theories about  what happened:

1. I just  have  a stomach that can't handle the bike-run combo (however, I've never had a stomach issue in a couple marathons or several half-Ironmans).

2. I fudged my nutrition plan and I was dehydrated when I reached the run.  On this note I did get behind on my nutrition plan and water.  

3. Even though my bike plan matched my up to date FTP, I did fudge several long bike rides, not adding enough far to my fast.  Thus, my legs weren't really ready to handle the run on top of the TSS from my bike on race day, and my  stomach shut  down in response to the overwhelming stress.

Any thoughts would be so appreciated.  While I'm dedicated to giving  it  another go at Lake Placid, I'm dreading another race day like the ones  I've had, and want to come up with  as much of  a solution as I can find.

And happy thanksgiving everybody!

Eric

ChrisSmyth

It is hard to say what the solution is Eric but I had similar issues on the run and I made two changes to simplify everything:

1. Stopped taking any solids on the bike or run - digesting them is just added stress for the stomach that it doesn't need during a long day.

2. Switched to taking Infinit on the bike (protein. carbs and electrolytes) www.infinitnutrition.us - you can tailor this to a formula that works for you and if you call them up they will talk you through the process. The only stomach issues I have had since switching were on the run when I stopped infinit and took gatorade and coke! Next year I will have infinit with me on the run too!

Hope that is some help - I am sure others will chime in with their thoughts.

Chris

Kitboo

Eric: First, remind us again what your nutrition plan was for IMAZ. How many Cal/hour and in what form? Was is concentrated and how much? How many oz of fluid per hour? And when did you start/stop taking in your Cal and fluid?

GI distress during an IM can be caused by:

1. Taking in calories that are too concentrated--like washing a gel down with Gatorade or taking a gel and lots of sodium tabs without water

2. Taking in calories when your blood flow is mostly to your muscles---that is, going to hard and then trying to digest calories. This situation is where a HRM may help to remind you to not eat if your HR is >zone 3.

3. What you are eating/drinking could give you GI problems: some people are sensitive to caffeine, branch-chain amino acids, long-chain maltodextrin.

 

How did you do from a nutritional standpoint on your race rehearsals?

Tom Glynn

also,

Did you do race rehearsals and if so, how did they go and what was the nutrition plan and execution?

rtom

Al Truscott

Posted By Eric Voboril on 25 Nov 2009 06:51 PM

 Both  of my Ironmans (UK  and AZ a year apart) I've had exactly the same issue.  I've gotten really sick to my stomach on the run, to the point  that i  could barely keep moving.  Any water I consumed gave me severe stomach cramps.  The first time, I wasn't with EN and didn't know  what I was doing.   This time in AZ with EN on my sided I thought I'd have a better day, but the same thing happened.

Eric

This is indeed a race execution question. All solutions will be specific to the individual racing, but there may be some general principles. Here's what I surmise from my 16 IM experience:

For most of us, the physiology of the GI system combined with the effort level on the bike limits our absorption to 200-250 calories per hour. The easier the calories are to absorb, the less likely there will be GI distress later on (late in the bike, at the start of the run). Liquids and carbs are easier to absorb than solids and fats. A little protein may help, a lot may be bad. My personal plan mixes, more for variety than anything else, 750 cal from Perpetuum, 600 from Hammer Gel, 100-200 from Clif Shot Bloks, and the rest from Gatorade Enurance (supplied at the aid stations).

Hydration is very temperature dependent for me. Up to 65F, I need little extra fluids. So one bottle an hour in the first three hours is usually my starting point. As the temperature rises and my perceived effort goes up, I start to add more. But the exact amount is almost impossible to calculate or predict. I pay close attention to how my stomach feels during hours 2.5-5 on the bike: sloshy? a little regurg there? Back off on the intake. Extra sweat? Haven't pee'd? Maybe I need more. My goal is to arrive at the start of the run with no more than 250 calories/hour taken in the first 4-5 hours, and then a little less after that, as well as not feeling full, but able to pee in T2

Then on the run, I suspect part of the reason to GO SLOW at the start is to allow your GI and circulatory systems to take in enough fluid to keep you from getting too dehydrated to function three hours later. The point earlier about competition for blood flow between muscles and internal organs (kidneys as well as gut) is key here. At the effort level suggested by EN pacing, only liquids make sense on the run. Pretzels, bananas, etc demand too much GI activity to allow adequate effort from the muscles, and the GI tract starts to rebel. If at any point the GI system does rebel, the only solution is to SLOW DOWN or STOP until the problem starts to resolve, either by allowing sufficient absorption, or evacuating the offending material one way or the other. Trying to bull through it is a set up for disaster. If you make it to mile 13 or so, chicken soup can be remarkably restorative; gatorade and coke are my only sources of calories before that on the run, just enough to trick my brain into thinking I'm actually eating something, but not enough to stress my gut.

My thought on your plight is: too much fluid and or food late in the bike, possibly taking in solids instead of liquids on the bike, and too hard an effort early in the run. Since all solutions are personal, the only way to find out is to trial at race pace, which is why race rehersals are so important if you don't have a lot of IM experience to fall back on. I'd say it takes at least 5-8 races to really learn what works, and even that may not be enough if the weather and topographical conditions at those races are different. Commit to experimentation, and be willing to learn on those rehersals.

YMMV; this is what has worked for me, and some of my thinking about why I arrived at that nutrition plan.

 

Al Truscott

Posted By Eric Voboril on 25 Nov 2009 06:51 PM

 So far my theories about  what happened:

2. I fudged my nutrition plan and I was dehydrated when I reached the run.  On this note I did get behind on my nutrition plan and water.  

3. Even though my bike plan matched my up to date FTP, I did fudge several long bike rides, not adding enough far to my fast.  Thus, my legs weren't really ready to handle the run on top of the TSS from my bike on race day, and my  stomach shut  down in response to the overwhelming stress.

Re-read your post and have further comments on these two ideas of yours.

#2. Is it possible you realised late in the bike you were "behind", and tried to catch up in the last hour or 90 minutes? The extra load carried into the run may have come back to bite you.

#3. Again, this speaks to the value of the RR. It's not JUST about putting the miles into your leg muscles; it's also about providing sufficient time stress on your other organs (GI, Kidney, brain, whatever) to see how they hold up and what they need for success during a 10-15 hour day.

 

Deller

Thanks so much for the replies everybody. And Al, thanks for relating your experience. I've barely scratched the surface when it comes to doing Ironman races. It really helps to hearing from someone with so many races under their belt.

I think you're absolutely right about the race rehearsals. My first race rehearsal I took out concentrated bottles of Cytomax with about 200 calories/hour set up. I tried sipping the concentrated bottle and chasing with water from my aero drink. This made me queasy while I was still on the bike, and gave some funkiness on the rehearsal run as well. My second RR, I switched to Infinit with about 250 per hour in each bottle, but I mixed my nutrition directly in my aero drink bottle with water. However, I ran out of time on my RR and didn't do a full hour of running after my bike, so I didn't really get a sense of how my stomach would react on the run. Seems like I changed too many variables without really knowing how I would react to a nutrition regimen I hadn't tested enough on the road.
And Al, you're right, while I stuck to my power plan, I got behind on my nutrition and tried to catch up in the race. I think I might have overloaded myself with too much concentrated Infinit towards the end in the worry that I'd bonk. The result might have meant too much stuff sloshing around in my stomach.
I think as I get back into training I need to get a better sense of how much hydration I need and also focus better on my rate of taking stuff in e.g. practicing sipping on a time schedule, etc.
Thanks again everybody, and hope you're all having a great holiday!

Deller

 Kitma: Thanks for the suggestion about the HRM.  I've been concentrating on pace and power but  haven't been using heart rate on rides or runs.  Seems like it would be a good idea to use that metric a little more to track where I'm at rather than just what my legs are feeling.  Maybe you're right and if I'd eased up a little sooner on my ride, I might have done  a better job of digesting my nutrition on the ride. 

All the best!

Eric

Chris G

2 things stood out to me when I read your post. First you did not do enough longish rides to be sure of your FTP going in. Second you did not follow your plan on race day. It is time to get super anal about how you train with your nutrition. Set alarms, measure things perfectly. Whatever it takes until you get a handle on it.

Before drawing any other conclusions or doing anything drastic I suggest mapping out a nutrition plan and then following it to a T during your race rehearsals. If it works then do the same thing in the race. Does not matter how good or bad your plan is if you do not follow it. Maybe do a 3rd race rehearsal early in the game this spring so that you will have plenty of time to adjust if it does not work.

As for the far/fast ftp thing. If you are not "sure" of your ftp going in then it is too high, back it down. You go to war with the army you have not the army you wish you had is the saying that fits it best.

The issues you describe are exactly what happen to lots of people who go too hard on the bike. Backing off earlier might not of made much difference. Need to back off before doing damage.

Point is, a stomach transplant might be a little premature :-)

Linda Patch

Hi Eric--

 

Something else to add to the database in your head re this issue. I posted the info below about 18 months ago in the old forum. The S-caps continue to work their magic for me and several other members here. Everybody and every body is different, but take the time to read the articles and faqs linked below. Maybe it can give you some help in the future. Gut issues will shut you down for sure. No fun.

 

********************************************************************************************************************

 

Hi All,



I wanted to share how again the Succeed S-caps work incredibly well for me. On Saturday's LR, I was having a problem with a side stitch. It was hurting, then hurting more, and it was persisting and really driving me nuts. Then I thought, "maybe I need an S-cap." I am totally serious that in under 5' the stitch was completely gone. The same thing happened in IMFL last time-- Stitch, take S-cap, gone. Start that first inkling of nausea, take S-cap, gone. For me it is that dramatic. Just as is described in the FAQs here, is how they work for me.



In case anyone out there is having trouble finding and electrolyte/sodium supplement, I wanted to pass it on. In the past I've used Hammer, Lava Salts, Elete Water, etc. Time after time, however, the S-caps can't be beat. (I need to be on their payroll. )



http://www.succeedscaps.com/articles.html



http://www.succeedscaps.com/articles.html



http://www.succeedscaps.com/answer.html

Al Truscott

Posted By Linda Patch on 28 Nov 2009 08:10 AM

Hi Eric--

 

Something else to add to the database in your head re this issue. I posted the info below about 18 months ago in the old forum. The S-caps continue to work their magic for me and several other members here. Everybody and every body is different, but take the time to read the articles and faqs linked below. Maybe it can give you some help in the future. Gut issues will shut you down for sure. No fun.

 

Although I've never had the dramatic experience described in the old post, I do routinely use the Succeed pills during a race, both on bike and run. I never have GI issues or side stitches in races. Not claiming a connection, just observing. I also use Hammer Race Caps Supreme, and never touch solid food during the race, or even the night before (drink 1000 cal Jamba Juice for my evening pre-race meal).

marianne

somewhere in EN is race protocol nutrition, or in old posts, but basically 30' before the end of the ride, stop eating! so your stomach can settle down before the run! also the first 30' after the swim, no calories either! to let your stomach settle down, and then yes a nutrition plan, like every 15' or some such and like clockwork take it in gradually shooting for X calories, worked out in tng. I also use a liquid nutrition, 250 cals per hour but early in tng, I water it down and build up to full strength so that on IM it is natural for my body. yep the days before nutrition is important too like Al mentioned. keep it easy and simple. also in race sims podcasts and posts there is thoughts about weighing yourself before and after your race rehearsal rides to see about your hydration so that is pegged too. so I think #2 is your reason, mentioned in post #1! so in this year's training, one of your goals besides the workout, is to play around with your nutrition! and get the exact amt necessary and also water depending on pacing and temps. KISS, keep it simple "silly"... (stoopid but I won't call you that!)