Use 120% and if that seems too easy, extend the interval to 60".
Word of wise caution already provide by @Al Truscott ....very easy to over extend in the OS. Test and ensure you are using a valid FTP, then just follow the plan, watch your fitness improve, stay injury free and kick some butt come spring time.... Easy to kill one workout, but add all that up after a few days/weeks and the cumulative impact can sneak up on you fast.
@Scott Imlay and @Shaughn Simmons , Thanks for the Feedback. About 120-125% is what has worked well for me as well for 30-60" intervals. I was a little surprised to see 150% for these intervals in the EnduranceNation 2018 OS workouts in trainerroad.
Team, What intensity are you guys doing your Thursday30 second VO2 interval? Typically VO2 was done at Z5 (120% of ftp) but when I look at the workout in trainer road, this is set 150%. I know 120% may be a notch too low for a 30" all out interval but is 150% the expected intensity? Just want to make sure that I don't try to over reach here and I'm setting the interval intensity correctly.
A key part of the VO2 workout is not only the IF of the work interval, but the IF of the recovery time (15-30") between those 30" intervals. One thing I've discovered is that I get optimally exhausted if my TOTAL IF for the set (defined as, say 8 x 30"(30")) is 1.0. To get there, I do the work @ 1.2, and the recovery @ 0.6 when I do 30/30s. I'm interested in seeing what happens when that recovery interval is shortened to 20 or 15 seconds.
Another thing to bear in mind about what IF to do the VO2 sets at: what energy system are you trying to improve. 120% should help us with adding 10% to our expected race effort for his of about 3-5 minutes in length, enabling us to ride them @, say, 0.75-0.8 IF instead of 0.7. Working at a higher effort level may not help a whole lot when it comes to race day - that might be for doing a 10-60 second chase down in a bike race; its hard to see how it helps a long distance time trialist.
And Scots absolutely correct: avoid going from hero to zero during the workout. The power on the last interval should be the same as the first, and all those in between, to get best benefit from this specific workout.
@Al Truscott Thanks for the feedback. Your comment got me thinking about the off interval. I have to admit that my off intervals have always been <.5 IF in order for me to be able to do 8-12 of these on/off intervals. The workout on the training plan says "Off" is very easy, at an effort that allows you to repeat your effort on the next interval. I'm interested to hear if there actually any benefit in maintaining a higher intensity in the off interval? Is the actual goal to get as close to an IF of 1.0 for the on/off set?
I got mine done this morning on the good ol' wired PowerTap. Did 2 x 9x30/20 @~130-135% of FTP. That was really hard but doable. I may have to beg for an upgrade to this TrainerRoad or Swift thing you whippersnappers keep talking about. Is there a thread somewhere that tells me what I need to buy/how to set up?
@Bill McKinney I'm not a tech Geek and I was able to navigate thrugh setting up Zwift. Just go to https://zwift.com/ hit the downoad and for $10 bucks/month you're in.
It will walk you through how to pair your Power Meter and HR strap. You will need a dongle. I haven't done the group rides yet. That's my next step since they are now on the left Coast at 8 am!
You will need some source of power output to use Zwift.
I have the el cheapo set up using a dumb trainer: Cycle Ops Fluid. For power readings I use P1 Powertap pedals. I use a laptop with a long USB cord and ant+ dongle at the end laying on the floor near my bike to pick up the power readings.
If you have the money, smart trainers like the Neo Tacx, WaHoo Kicker and Cycle Ops Magnum are highly rated.
@Amulya Parthasarathy No, there was never a directive from on high, this was just something I discovered back when we first started doing 30'30s. The thinking has been, the exercise works best to train the neuromuscular system if it gets progressively more tired during the set. So it feels as if you have to work harder and harder to do those 30s. BUT, you are still able to do them @ 120%. So the 60% recovery interval is designed to contribute to that - start each short interval a little more tired than the last.
I looked at my total IF for a set of 30/30s, and found the when I performed them @ 120$/60%, my IF was reading 1.0 +/- for the whole set. I'll note that I'm on a smart trainer, so each interval *has* to be exactly 1.2/0.6
Before the bike intervals, I did a treadmill run workout with easy w/u followed by 7 fast hill intervals lasting about 20-30sec @ 7-8% with 1.5min walking RI. Was a great workout and good warmup for the bike ride. After strong ramp type warm up, completed 2x(10x30on30off) work intervals@120-125% and RI@60-63%.( I have noted the discussions above about intensities and these ranges typically work good for me and accomplish my goals for this workout. When I am later in the OS, I will up the intensity of the on to about 130%.) Finished with 15 minutes of Z3 steady riding. Felt great
@Al Truscott thanks for the guidance. I did the 30 on at 130% of FTP, but never considered the intensity of the 30 off. I thought that was just a rest period. I will set up my TrainerRoad workout to reflect that. The 130% seems like it is challenging but not too difficult.
I didn't use the EN one because I just started with my new trainer and wasn't sure if they had the workout in Ergo mode at 150%, and I kew that wasn't going to work.
I did the custom workout in ZWIFT of twice thru 10x30/15 and thought the workout was challenging but not awful. Reviewing my data after only gave me IF of .7 and TSS of 49. I hit the targeted watts prescribed so not sure why doesn't match what Al suggested should be closer to IF of 1. The loaded workout had 120% for the on and 50% for the off. Does that sound about right?
I did the custom workout in ZWIFT of twice thru 10x30/15 and thought the workout was challenging but not awful. Reviewing my data after only gave me IF of .7 and TSS of 49. I hit the targeted watts prescribed so not sure why doesn't match what Al suggested should be closer to IF of 1. The loaded workout had 120% for the on and 50% for the off. Does that sound about right?
I did a quick model of a 10 x 30/15 set in Trainer Road's Workout Creator, and got a TSS of 13 and an IF of 1.01 for the entire 7.5 minute main set. I'm guessing you are taking the TSS and IF for entire workout, which would include warm-up and any time in other zones, as well as the 5' recovery between sets.
To re-state...the "IF=1.0" standard is purely observational on my part. To run this "checksum" on our current workouts, you'd look at JUST the time from starting the first 30 second work interval to the end of the last rest interval in ONE set. Don't include any warm-up, recovery between sets, intervals in other zones, etc.
Looks like a recovery IF of 0.5 works well for 15 second rests. IF= 0.55 for the 20 second intervals in Level 2, and IF=0.65 for the Level 1 30 second recoveries.
I hit "Post" too quickly. I agree with a previous post in this thread, that the idea is to have recovery interval watts @ whatever level allows you to finish the entire workout with each work interval at 120%. You should feel pleasantly tired at the end and ready to quit, but not totally exhausted or ready to puke - save those efforts for test days. If you "over-achieve" by working to complete exhaustion, you'll burn out after several weeks, and not get full value from the OS.
I've found over the years that a power level for the short recovery intervals (15, 20, or 30") of about 60% of my FTP works best for me. Others, depending on their current state of training, their history (or lack thereof) of previous hard interval work on the bike, and their muscle fiber make-up, may need more or less than that to get the full value from a VO2 workout.
An additional comment to follow up on conversation ongoing. I went back and looked at my training peaks download of today's bike workout. My first interval set of 10 was 1.05 IF and second set was 1.08 based on how I structured the workout mentioned above. Also I would like to note that I did extend the 10th one in each set to 1 full minute (with slightly less watts) so that I finished each set right at the 10 minute mark with the last "on" rep.
First OS in 6 years after a long "that's life" layoff. FTP tested in August as I started RDP 1-3 and have been riding enough that I'll just carry that number (251) with me into NOS. I loved the first day on the bike of 3x8 as it brought back great pain cave memories. Excited for the 30/20's
My 2¢ on the intensity of the "on" cycle of 30/30's... The goal is to work VO2max which generally corresponds to a maximal 5 min effort. For most that is 1.2xFTP. These workouts are nothing more than broken 5 min VO2 sets with the rest periods allowing you to complete all of them without being wrecked afterwards.
Some very high quality dialogue and wisdom in this NOV OS forum exchange. Want to recognize @Al Truscott for making the difference, taking them time, leading by example for us.
This is my 9th OS and I have seen all flavors .......this is by far one of the best directions, starts I have seen.
I encourage all of you, much like @Rafe Armstrong@Amulya Parthasarathy to participate and post as often as possible. Therein lies the best value for you and the rest of us as we go along.
Reminding all that I raced las Sunday and have used this week to recover and slowly get back on the saddle.
Team, How are you guys doing your indoor bike workouts which are longer than 90 minutes? I'm having difficulty completing indoor trainer workouts which is more than 90 minutes not because I don't have the endurance for it, but mostly because my crotch is dying to take a break. Are you guys taking breaks for the 150 minute workout on Saturday's if it's done indoor? When riding outdoors we usually get a break during traffic lights, water stop ever 90-120 minutes or so etc which is good enough for me. I'm in California and I'm spoilt riding outdoors year round. So the concept of long indoor rides is somewhat new to me. Looking for some feedback here.
Also did my first Zwift ride today and really enjoyed it. It kept me engaged and I can see myself doing longer Medium/ABP intensity Saturday and Sunday rides on Zwift. I'm may still use Trainerroad or just the garmin bike computer for the high intensity Tuesday/Thursday rides. I'm huffing and puffing on the Tuesday/Thursday rides just trying to finish each interval . I don't know how much more motivation I will gain with the scenery on Zwift for the interval workout unless I substitute it for a Zwift race.
Team, How are you guys doing your indoor bike workouts which are longer than 90 minutes?...
My solution - I just don't ride longer than 90-100 minutes on a trainer. Even with Zwift, Trainer Road, whatever, its just not FUN. Its the short, hard efforts/intervals, not the long, steady ones, that provide the value of the OS. Unless you are doing IM New Zealand or Texas, I wouldn't worry about doing long trainer rides Nov-Jan; and if you are, and live in California, then go outside.
@Amulya Parthasarathy I totally second @Al Truscott. It's completely boring and becomes non productive. Yes, movies and TV can help but the lack of variability is rough. That said, there is no coasting/descending on the trainer so yiu get more pedal time on a 90 min trainer ride thean the road. I get the numbness too and will get out of the saddle to get the circulation back.
Mixed week on the bike for me. Loved the Tues/Thurs workouts but just wasn't feeling it out on the road today and pulled the plug at 45 mins. I hate doing that, but could barely break a sweat and heart rate lagged. Hoping a good meal, a good night's sleep and a day off tomorrow turn it around
@Amulya Parthasarathy I do not agree that trainer rides longer than 90 minutes are boring. The key is to get some group rides on Zwift and the time really flies. I have done a bunch of 4 hour rides on Zwift with other TeamEN members as well as some of the Zwift scheduled rides. They all use discord so you can talk to others as you ride. There are many of us that do long rides on the trainer. I'm done with my long rides typically before 10am which is a great benefit. If I ride less than two hours it's typically an all out race for about an hour that ends up being between 85-100 TSS. My less intensive rides are typically in the 2:30 range. Many longer and if I was bored I would not be doing them.
My suggestion would be to try some Zwift group rides and then ride the Sunday ABP or Saturday now and stay as long as you can. Use discord on the TeamEN rides and it really helps make the rides interesting.
@Tim Sullivan Zwift was without a doubt very engaging and I'm pretty sure its even more engaging when done in a group with discord. My issue is mainly sitting in the saddle for more than 90 minutes without my rear end getting a break from the saddle like coasting, standing on my pedals and possibly taking short water refills breaks etc. I will try and join one of the EN group Zwift rides to check it out. Cant beat the benefit of riding long rides as a group indoors on rainy days .
@Amulya Parthasarathy I also am not bothered by long trainer rides. I will frequently do rides of 2-4 inside and have done longer. I can get more quality out of a long indoor ride. I mentioned somewhere else and I don't remember where, that I haven't gotten into Zwift or Trainer Road yet though I would likely enjoy that too, but I listen to music and use an app called Rock My Run that will allow me to set and change the cadence of the music and I cycle with my cadence exactly in time with the music and alter it and do a variety of sets. I also incorporate standing to help change position and also crotch pressure. I don't do a lot of aerobar riding inside though I do spend some time on the aerobars.
Good solid weekend ride but moved it to Sunday as Saturday was better day for me to run as I spent most of the day Saturday following friends racing at IMFL w/u then 3x10min sweet spot @ .91,.91,.93 then about 30 min at Z3. Only had time for about 1:45 of riding
Comments
Word of wise caution already provide by @Al Truscott ....very easy to over extend in the OS. Test and ensure you are using a valid FTP, then just follow the plan, watch your fitness improve, stay injury free and kick some butt come spring time.... Easy to kill one workout, but add all that up after a few days/weeks and the cumulative impact can sneak up on you fast.
SS
Another thing to bear in mind about what IF to do the VO2 sets at: what energy system are you trying to improve. 120% should help us with adding 10% to our expected race effort for his of about 3-5 minutes in length, enabling us to ride them @, say, 0.75-0.8 IF instead of 0.7. Working at a higher effort level may not help a whole lot when it comes to race day - that might be for doing a 10-60 second chase down in a bike race; its hard to see how it helps a long distance time trialist.
And Scots absolutely correct: avoid going from hero to zero during the workout. The power on the last interval should be the same as the first, and all those in between, to get best benefit from this specific workout.
It will walk you through how to pair your Power Meter and HR strap. You will need a dongle. I haven't done the group rides yet. That's my next step since they are now on the left Coast at 8 am!
I have the el cheapo set up using a dumb trainer: Cycle Ops Fluid. For power readings I use P1 Powertap pedals. I use a laptop with a long USB cord and ant+ dongle at the end laying on the floor near my bike to pick up the power readings.
If you have the money, smart trainers like the Neo Tacx, WaHoo Kicker and Cycle Ops Magnum are highly rated.
Here is the link to learn more about setups:
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/22881/sunday-zwift-abp-8am-est-updated-instructions-inside/p1
Here are some great reources:
http://staminist.com/zwiftorg
http://zwiftblog.com/
http://www.titaniumgeek.com/cycling/zwift-user-manual-unofficial-running-updates/
https://support.zwift.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000440003-A-Guide-to-the-Zwift-HUD?section=200993429
How to Zwift on the cheap? No smart trainer required! Here is a good resource for that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg0IDDmSStw
I'm starting out at an FTP of 192 3.3 w/k --->
Ready to get this party started.
EB
I looked at my total IF for a set of 30/30s, and found the when I performed them @ 120$/60%, my IF was reading 1.0 +/- for the whole set. I'll note that I'm on a smart trainer, so each interval *has* to be exactly 1.2/0.6
I didn't use the EN one because I just started with my new trainer and wasn't sure if they had the workout in Ergo mode at 150%, and I kew that wasn't going to work.
To re-state...the "IF=1.0" standard is purely observational on my part. To run this "checksum" on our current workouts, you'd look at JUST the time from starting the first 30 second work interval to the end of the last rest interval in ONE set. Don't include any warm-up, recovery between sets, intervals in other zones, etc.
Looks like a recovery IF of 0.5 works well for 15 second rests. IF= 0.55 for the 20 second intervals in Level 2, and IF=0.65 for the Level 1 30 second recoveries.
I've found over the years that a power level for the short recovery intervals (15, 20, or 30") of about 60% of my FTP works best for me. Others, depending on their current state of training, their history (or lack thereof) of previous hard interval work on the bike, and their muscle fiber make-up, may need more or less than that to get the full value from a VO2 workout.
My 2¢ on the intensity of the "on" cycle of 30/30's... The goal is to work VO2max which generally corresponds to a maximal 5 min effort. For most that is 1.2xFTP. These workouts are nothing more than broken 5 min VO2 sets with the rest periods allowing you to complete all of them without being wrecked afterwards.
for making the difference, taking them time, leading by example for us.
This is my 9th OS and I have seen all flavors .......this is by far one of the best directions, starts I have seen.
I encourage all of you, much like @Rafe Armstrong @Amulya Parthasarathy to participate and post as often as possible. Therein lies the best value for you and the rest of us as we go along.
Reminding all that I raced las Sunday and have used this week to recover and slowly get back on the saddle.
I was able to complete a V02 set using a 6.2 mile Zwift race that fits my current CTL this morning: https://www.strava.com/activities/1260644291
I followed this up with the Z3 work on Zwfit: https://www.strava.com/activities/1260770071
2 mile walk afterwards, going light this week with the running while I slowly folding into the OS program.
Keep leading all!
SS
How are you guys doing your indoor bike workouts which are longer than 90 minutes? I'm having difficulty completing indoor trainer workouts which is more than 90 minutes not because I don't have the endurance for it, but mostly because my crotch is dying to take a break. Are you guys taking breaks for the 150 minute workout on Saturday's if it's done indoor? When riding outdoors we usually get a break during traffic lights, water stop ever 90-120 minutes or so etc which is good enough for me. I'm in California and I'm spoilt riding outdoors year round. So the concept of long indoor rides is somewhat new to me. Looking for some feedback here.
Also did my first Zwift ride today and really enjoyed it. It kept me engaged and I can see myself doing longer Medium/ABP intensity Saturday and Sunday rides on Zwift. I'm may still use Trainerroad or just the garmin bike computer for the high intensity Tuesday/Thursday rides. I'm huffing and puffing on the Tuesday/Thursday rides just trying to finish each interval
My suggestion would be to try some Zwift group rides and then ride the Sunday ABP or Saturday now and stay as long as you can. Use discord on the TeamEN rides and it really helps make the rides interesting.
w/u then 3x10min sweet spot @ .91,.91,.93 then about 30 min at Z3. Only had time for about 1:45 of riding