Late Season Slot Chasing Question: Do You Modify Usual Taper because of PMC Metrics?
I am going to race the final Ironman Los Cabos to try and earn a slot for next year's world championships. It syncs with the family, with the fact I didn't really run much of Hawaii (was tired but not shelled by any means), and the fact there are 4 slots for about 75 folks racing in my AG.
I have recovered quickly, and I consider racing in the short term a lot easier than the alternative: de-training and re-starting all over again next year. Not to mention that I have not scheduled an IM for next season.
I have recovered quickly, and I consider racing in the short term a lot easier than the alternative: de-training and re-starting all over again next year. Not to mention that I have not scheduled an IM for next season.
As I look to my workouts for this final two weeks, I am struck with a conundrum. I am not sure I can do the normal work I do over a typical taper because my PMC chart shows a pretty decent level of fatigue at this point in the game.
I have done a few runs and two bigger rides to get my blood plasma volume back up and reverse the process of detraining. But I also know I can’t get any fitter.
Here are the data points from earlier in the year the day before each of my Races:
ATL CTL TSB Race
56 96 32 Cabos (PREDICTED)
71 116 36 Kona (10:24)
66 117 43 Tremblant 17 (9:37)
78 139 51 Kona 15 (10:02)
82 115 21 Texas 15 (9:37)
So my question is this: Do I modify my typical taper to get my TSB values as high as they normally are pre race...OR...do I ignore those values and repeat the progression that has worked for me in the past?
I have already dialed things down to get the values to what you see above… But I am basically limited to just one work out a day and am a bit concerned about body composition since I am not really training.
My only concern is obviously carrying fatigued this late in the year. Really curious to hear what everyone, especially veterans have to say about this. @tim cronk And @Dave Tallo You come to mind!
Thanks in advance!
~ Coach P
Thanks in advance!
~ Coach P
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All this is JMHO
1. I really think the magical place to race close IM's is 3-4 weeks apart, 2 weeks is too soon to recover from the first , and 5 is too long to recover, build, taper etc... 3-4 weeks is when the fitness boost is hitting you from the first race (specially if you did not bury yourself).... Its all about balancing that recovery, from the first, and getting back up to racing fitness (not adding or gaining). You are in this magical window.
2. PMC - Step away from the PMC. Do not try to force a number on a program. Go by feel and what has worked in the past with emphasis on how you are feeling .
3. Taper - As long as you are feeling good and recovered wko to wko and since you dont have to taper from the same workload in the weeks leading up to KONA I dont see any reason why you can't start your taper a 1/2 week later and do just a little bit more in those wko's... For instance the normal 2.5hr ride 1 week out stretch it to 3hrs , last long run of 70min stretch to 80min...
4. Body Comp- Is so much more about food intake than it is energy expenditure... Suck it up cupcake (pun intended) be disciplined to adjust that intake.
5. I'm in the same boat as you but I have an extra week going into IMAZ... Which as I mentioned above I do not believe is an advantage.
6. When in doubt . Less is More. Food and Training :-) Trust your KONA build and the recovery you already have in place.
I love this about EN. The "Coach" asking for advice from the members! The TRUE definition of a TEAM!! Everyone learning from everyone!
Thanks again CoachP and Team!
However, that said, I would go for it. Chances are, you will KQ given the field that shows up a CABOS and your experience going in.
I would rest my ass off between now and then, meditate, let the business stresses be managed by others (its only two weeks) and emphasize down time mentally as much as possible.
I know you can do it.
SS
CTL and ATL have been trending downward, but the ratios are consistent with the other races (expect for Texas 15 which seemed to have high fatigue). So to me the 32 TSB target seems in line. I wouldn't want it any higher simply due to the risk of feeling flat on race day. A point or two lower wouldn't hurt if it helps to get that "sharp" feeling and some spring in the legs
What I found myself thinking this weekend (when contemplating the same question!): PMC is a model. Like the models underpinning weather predictions on the news*. Extending that analogy, think of trying to shape a weather forecast model with the parameters that normally apply, except this month, there’s been in uptick of global warming, water levels are historically high, and a once-in-a-century storm just blew through last month. Which bested the records set in the storm that flattened Tremblant the month before that. So with this in hand, the model is nice, but probably doesn’t apply quite as much as it had at an earlier time. All the underpinning numbers, calculations, and assumptions are just out of whack.
That’s where I would describe someone with two high-performance races that are feeding into his PMC – his numbers are going to be out of whack, his capacity is going to be out of whack, and the premises behind each of those aren’t going to apply in the same reliable way that they had in, say, sunny July or sunny September.
That in mind, I think an amazing goal would be to be at the sbr and all-day AE fitness levels you carried over the season. You’re not going to physically sharpen, and your peak is much more of a mound, but there’s still a great day in there.
Now, contradicting my “all data bets are off” points from above, I'd zoom out to the more widely accepted taper knowledge from the literature:
-after the last two weeks, there’s going to be some decay of your fitness, and this on top of the decay of fitness from your Kona taper. But for the purposes of long course racing, that type of fitness can be clawed back, or arrested through minimal regular training, I think. But the top end stuff is probably best kept out of mind.
-to your question / thread: I wouldn’t be quite as fussy about the taper (and modelling the taper) as I would if it were IM #1 or #2 of the year. The normal taper week (say 5h tot) is fine, and a normal %25 vol decrease the week before that is also fine. However, to set these up, I would keep the weekend that is two weeks out from race day as a single long ride and MAYBE a abp, but preferably not both. I feel safe about saying “short taper” only because of the duration of the event (short event=long taper … not the case here!), the value of the taper to event intensity (I don’t believe there’s a lot fatigue that you’ll be carrying that comes from intensity), and the roll you’re on.
Last, my personal experience from closely-spaced races – and this was in a phase where I was kinda making it up as I was going along and not using WKO – was pretty much train as normal, and drop into a regular taper (more like a ledge!) at 7 days out. This was while I was in my 30s, but I think your resilience is that of a 22 year old, so it would probably apply.
So now what? My instinct would actually be to get EN counsel on following a deeper, Tinley-esque RPE, training (and recovering) by feel, approach to the weeks ahead. Get SUPER in touch with your body and the signals it's sending you (and earlier post suggesting meditation is a good start; also yoga ... keeping in mind that these aren't as much for flexibility as they are for mind-body connectedness). And, for dialing in the train/race how you feel guidance, @Al Truscott is the man on this, if only because what you need now is probably more wisdom than math, and you’re into the alchemy of art and science, which is very much a craft he has perfected.
My other thoughts on this:
-Passive “work”: Specific to a workup for Cabo, see the “heat prep” thread where Sheila had been advising on Sims’ sauna protocol. I think this is worth jumping on now in order to preserve and sustain some of your acclimation from a few weeks ago. Assuming you’ll be arriving shortly before the race, there’s some gold in that protocol, given the conditions.
-risk management / Kona GI issues: don’t buy Sushi at a Dollar Store the night before the race.
-Execution: I promise to get a giant back tattoo that says “EN Kona Stud” if, in exchange, you promise you’ll draft the F out of the swim. See @Mike Roberts Kona report, where he talks about experiencing a RPE of 1/10 when he fell into line. Now hammer the crap out of the first 400 and get with a faster-than-normal pack, and climb on.
Really excited about watching this one! (but I would be apoplectic if I were one of the other 40-44 guys who registered for Cabo and was expecting an easy slot!)
http://www.choosecherries.com/tart-tale/7-day-tart-cherry-juice-challenge/.
Go race without worrying about teammates and podcasts!
The PMC works pretty well for me (i.e., giving me data on one race that I can compare to prior races), but only when I have a full, pretty normal build. That is, CTL is a seven-week average. And your last seven weeks are all over the map, with peaks, two weeks of taper, race week, post race, etc. I didn't have a clean seven-week build to LP (injury) or to Kona (recovering from LP), so I knew my CTL would be a little skewed (when I took my five-week TSS daily average, I was closer to the 110-120 CTL I typically race at). Regardless, in both races I had plenty of fitness to run well and not fade at the end, despite the "low" CTLs. So, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on those numbers. That said, as you can see below, my day-before-IM numbers look pretty close to what you're looking at in Cabo:
ATL CTL TSB Race
56 96 32 Cabo (PREDICTED)
58 90 24 LP
59 89 23 Kona
As for the details, I'd just break it down piece-by-piece:
1. Humidity. I suspect the conditions won't bee too unlike Kona. So get in the sauna starting now.
2. Jet lag. You're only 3 hours ahead, so not that huge of an impact. But unless you're gonna be out there a week before, start adjusting your routine at home before you leave so that you go to bed a few hours early (9pm?) and wake up two hours early (4 or 5am). If you can shave off 1-2 hours of the jet lag effect before you arrive, you'll negate the advantages the west coasters have.
3. Nutrition. Whatever you ate the day before at Kona, eat something different. And earlier.
4. Hydration. Whatever you drank on the bike in Kona, drink 2x as much in LC. For me (and I think Tim and Withrow and Croucher), Skratch Hyper Hydration is pure $ in hot/humid races. Try it this week and see what you think. Regardless of your solution, hopefully it works because not peeing on the bike and KQing don't go hand-in-hand.
5. Swim. I don't think you need to taper much at all for the swim. I would go 12-15k this week, with plenty of take-out-speed work, to stay sharp. All those recent OW swims in HI will pay dividends. It's a rolling start, so start in an aggressive area (1:00) and work like hell those first 500 take-out meters to establish and maintain a good place behind fast guys/gals on the buoy line.
6. Bike. Less is probably more in terms of training, but you could go for a decent 60-80 sometime this week just to give you the confidence that the power is still there. On race day, I would go by RPE with a HR/power backstop. Be prepared to go 5-10 watts lower than Kona if RPE says that's the right output. Your "effective FTP" is probably lower right now due to fatigue, so chasing 72% of an artificial FTP may end up effectively being 75 or 76% of your real threshold. And you don't want that. Seriously, whether you KQ or not almost certainly comes down to the run, and your run is set up by your . . . well, you know. Your bike nutrition/hydration/pacing need to be dead-on accurate, if not a little conservative IMO, for you to go 3:30~ on that run course.
7. Run. Taper as normal. Get a massage or two.
8. Transitions. You gave up 3 minutes in T2 in Kona. Plan, practice, and mentally commit to blitzing them in LC. You just never know when/if you're going to need those extra couple of free minutes.
This ^^ is just what I would do . . . if I were crazy enough to do what you're doing. Best of luck. We'll be watching/cheering.
MR
Ed
Why do I say that? I've done this successfully twice (race Kona, somewhat unsuccessfully, then 4 or 5 weeks later, qualify & win AG @ IM AZ), so I went back to look at just what I did in the weeks before all four of those races, and see if there is anything I can learn from that review which might be of use to you or anyone else checking in on this thread.
1. First thing that jumps out... I was not afraid to run. In 2009, in the six weeks leading to Kona, I averaged 23.42 mi/week at an average pace of 9 min/mile (a lot of that was in Colorado, where I am about 20-30 sec/mile slower than @ sea level), with the first two weeks @ 36 miles (long runs of 16/4 split, & 17.5). Then, after Kona, leading up to AZ, I averaged 27.3 mi/week @ 8:25/mi, two weeks @ 34 & 37 miles, with two long runs @ 16.5 & 15.5 miles (2:27 & 2:25, 2 x 15' @ MP, 5' @ HMP, and 10' @ LP, or whatever crazy thing you were having us do then.) The result: my fastest IM run ever, hitting the BQ time for my age. At my third IM for the year...
Five years later, again for my third IM of the year, I had one week less to train, so I only had one "big" run week @ 37 miles, and two long runs @ 16 & 17 miles. I was only going 4 sec/mile slower though
2. Swimming - I was pretty much following whatever Rich had us doing in the plan for the final 4-6 weeks before an IM. Usually involving a couple of 3800m swims a week of various long intervals, and another session of shorter, quicker stuff.
3. Cycling - The first week, I did 1-2 bikes, of about 2 hours each. Then 2 weeks @ 170-180 miles (10-11 hours), then 2+ weeks out, a race rehearsal style ride of 5-6 hours.
4. Taper - I see I was doing 18-20 hours during the time frame 3 & 4 weeks to go, then dropping to 10/4 in the final two weeks. Meaning, I was following my dictum..."with two weeks to go, prioritize rest over volume, but maintain only slightly reduced intensity frequency, with longer rest intervals; in the final week, try to get 5 hours of work, mainly to shake off cobwebs and stay sane." Looking at the details of those tapers, I don't think I did anything different than I would before any other IM.
5. In general, I seemed to be able to pop back into a full-fledged training plan within 7-8 days from Kona. Weeks 2&3 post race, I was doing long rides of 5-6 hours each week, a session on the trainer, a session at the track, and a long run of 2:15-2:30 (with a split run one year added to that), along with slightly reduced swim volume. Meaning, again, I did nothing special to acknowledge the supposed fatigue I should have been carrying.
I think you can successfully add in the heat stress protocol Sheila pointed us to during this coming week. Just be prepared to feel more fatigued than you normally would during your second to last week before a race. I did something similar to that both of these races (actually, a ten-day course of intermittent hypoxication, which has the same effect of playing with your oxygen saturation for about 20-30 minutes) and was able to handle the usual taper protocol.
-stay healthy
-stay lean - step away from ALL Halloween candy today and throughout the week
-I had considered this race a while back and had fully stalked the entrants in my AG as of 3 months ago. the field is not deep, but is stacked at the pointy end.
-^^THAT^^ means you will likely need to dig deep on race day and will likely have to chase someone on the run course down, having the reserve of rest vs fatigue is going to be a big weapon. Kona at this point was a huge training day as per tim cronk above. to paraphase Jason Bourne (The ludlum version) "rest is a weapon."
Now here are my thoughts:
- Do NOT touch the Halloween candy. Body comp is your friend, especially on the run of a hot race.
- Swim MORE until the race. Your Vasa will help keep the lb's off and those swim TSS numbers will not hurt your legs at all. Following the advice of the smart swimmers above and start the race fast, then put it in cruise control will pay huge dividends in the last 10 miles of the run, but you MUST keep your swim fitness strong NOW. If you get lazy on the swim training until the race, the run risks go up exponentially when pushing on the edge.
- A few (but very few) High Intensity intervals (very short in duration, like a few minutes per workout) will jump start your legs, but if you overdo this (A la Dinhofer's OLY or intense trail run a week before your race) you run the risk of unknowingly cooking yourself.
- I would think more "Race Pace" stuff than a typical "first race" plan will re-calibrate yourself without over-cooking, and let you simply surf the fitness wave you're already on (the rounded top, not a sharp peak).
- You are FIT. You must be FRESH for the race... So TSB numbers be damned, make sure your have a good taper. But with this said, if you train properly the next couple of weeks and surf the wave without a ton of super high intensity stuff, that doesn't mean the taper needs to be exceptionally "long", just exceptionally smart.
- x3 on the yoga/stretching/meditation. Kona conditions IM racing (even if you don't think you trashed your legs) still caused havoc on your Endocrine system and your cellular level recovery. So in addition to putting your chi back in it's rightful place, you better be eating super healthy and supplementing with at least a minimum the important things (Omega 3's, Magnesium, L-Glutamine, and Adrenal Supports).
I'll get my popcorn ready for tracking you on race day!!!- The recovery days following a race add zeros into your CTL calculation and this causes it to drop quickly, and
- The exponential weighting emphasizes recent performance over earlier performance.
The net of these two factors means that following a race, your CTL drops relatively quickly. As you start training with your new (lower) CTL and doing workouts that you are fully capable of doing physically, the PMC shows fatigue (TSB) going negative quickly because you have some zeros working through the 6-weeks window and you have recent performances (ATL) that is based on a higher level of fitness than your model show.Bottom line - PMC is really designed to show the training effect more than the training-detraining-training effect.
Here is my favorite article about detraining: http://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/training/detraining-the-truth-about-losing-fitness-22330
I believe that in the short term, the main physiological effect fo detraining is the reduction i blood plasma volume. Said differently, one loses their 5-hour power quicker than they lose their 20-minute power. As the detraining time extends, of course, they lose both. Since you started up so quickly after Kona, your strength probably increased due to the training effect from the race, so the main physical challenge is keeping the stamina where it needs to be.
Your question: "Do I modify my typical taper to get my TSB values as high as they normally are pre race...OR...do I ignore those values and repeat the progression that has worked for me in the past?"
My Opinion: I would trust how your body feels to guide your taper rather than what the PMC is telling you, because I don't believe the PMC is a reliable short-term measure of detraining.
But I am taking it all In and made some very quick adjustments. Most of all, you’ve given me some confidence that what I’m thinking about doing is in fact possible… Assuming I can get my head around it. I will keep everyone posted.
Coming out of IMMT, with 11 weeks to Cabo, I had time to go through a build phase, so my training this time is slightly different than what I've done in the past or what I believe would be optimal for a 4-6 week turnaround.
I believe a good approach would be to read the article that I posted above, then choose workouts specifically tailored to mitigate the predicted effects.
For example, one of the first things that happens is the reduction of blood plasma volume. Our increased blood volume that comes from long workouts leading into a race is one of the primary drivers of stamina. So, by race day we have tapered our volume, then we race, then we take some time off... we easily have a 3-4 week window of lower volumes and our stamina has decreased. One could advocate that quickly getting back on the bike for longer rides (measured in hours rather than miles) we could stop the detraining related to blood volume.
A second effect that quickly starts impacting our fitness is that the high intensity work that keeps our VO2 high has been tapered. Our training during the weeks leading into a race followed by the recovery period don't have the longer, high-intensity intervals that we have mid-plan... so hitting those high hear-rate numbers between races can help mitigate the detraining effect.
The work that we do building to a race is always focused. Each workout has a specific goal and targets specific adaption. When we do a follow-on race, I believe that we need the same focused approach of targeting specific adaption, but that the systems that we are targeting may be different than the ones that we targeted during the build to the first race.
There is a huge mental aspect of all this that needs to be addressed... I don't want to diminish that, but am just thinking about the physiological aspects here.
Here is a quick way to get it done https://www.directlabs.com/OrderTests/tabid/55/language/en-US/Default.aspx
Iron: I'm not certain what role Iron plays in any of this (except I want a lot of red blood cells!). My own iron levels seem pretty unremarkable... Here is a graph over the years. My first full-distance IM was the fall of 2013. All of these tests were done in April - June with the exception of the first and the last which were November & February. I did 2x half + full in 2013, 3x Full + half in 2014 and 2015, Full in 2016 and will have 2x Full in 2017. In general, there could be a slight upward trend over the years, but looks pretty normal to me.
Effects of Blood Volume Expansion
https://www.peakendurancesport.com/endurance-injuries-and-health/endurance-health-and-lifestyle/plasma-expansion/#
Dehydration Effects on Performance
http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/dehydration-and-its-effects-on-performance
Detraining Effects
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/training/detraining-the-truth-about-losing-fitness-22330
https://www.peakendurancesport.com/endurance-training/base-endurance-training/detraining/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3944049
Another question @rich stanbaugh - is reduced blood plasma a marker of an erosion of fitness, or is it an actual erosion of fitness? I would imagine there are lots of other things that are metabolic that are real indicators of fitness (and fitness decay) that might be more telling ... and not just from the point of view of arresting or slowing decay, but also the implications for the taper. Where I wonder the money might be is things like o2 expenditure or muscle strength (though blood plasma vol might be markers of these and lots of other things). Also, there are ways to increase blood plasma levels that don't necessary increase the fitness that determines success over a 10-hour aerobic day (for an extreme example, my non-triathlete GF and I could do a head-to-head sauna competition and experience comparable adaptions, but we would have different relative outcomes on race day).
Also sorry if these derail the original discussion (and to have shown by poor understanding of basic physiology), but these things rattled around my brain as I was thinking about poor @coach Patrick's fitness decay!
@Rich Stanbaugh - I had avoided iron for years thinking it was only for women. But by the summer of 2016 I was beginning to wonder if I was getting anemic because I would literally be gasping for breath the first 1/4 to 1/2 mile of each run I did ... then I would be OK. I read that you lose iron through your feet when running and from sweating which I do heavily in the summer here, so I started taking a low dose daily iron tablet and scheduled a physical since I hadn't seen the doc for anything but running injuries in over a decade. I didn't get lab work until a month later and my iron level was fine, but by that time all symptoms were gone and I'm convinced it was due to the pills. As long as I'm training heavily, I intend to stay on them.
I don't know if it is actual fitness erosion or not.
Thinking of my own ability to perform, I find myself separating "strength" and "stamina." If I do not ride my bike for 10 days, I do not believe my ability to perform on a 20-minute test (strength) would be impacted. I am 100% certain that my ability to hit a 5-hour target and then run (stamina) would be impacted. I am also reasonably certain that it would take me ≈4 rides to recover the 5-hour performance.
I believe that there is an immediate / very-short-term degradation in performance related to detraining effects such as blood plasma volume decreases. When looking at how to taper, or how to race-recover-race again, I believe that targeting these systems to avoid the detraining effects can be more efficient than doing 'random' workouts that do not target these systems. Blood plasma volume is one of the first systems impacted and relatively easy to target.
The first link that I published above seems to indicate that increasing blood volume through exercise has a very similar effect to increasing it artificially (transfusion). Maybe the sauna did not have an equivalent effect on you and your GF?
"I love this about EN. The "Coach" asking for advice from the members! The TRUE definition of a TEAM!! Everyone learning from everyone!"
I've said this before but it warrants repeating... The second Coach Patrick thinks he knows it all , I AM GONE.... This is yet another example of his modesty, interest in what we do, leadership skills , knowledge, willingness to continue his own education to not only better himself but to help all of us, and his down to earth personality that makes EN so special...
This Thread is Amazing. Can you imagine knowledge, data, facts, studies, and opinions getting discussed in such a civil manner? Incredibly interesting topics about blood plasma and rates of detraining vs training... Very very interesting...
I have always observed long endurance deteriorates quicker than short and hard intensities which I believe is opposite of what we originally believed... The thinking always was we just did a long race so therefore we still have that endurance... But 2-3 weeks after an Ironman I am always amazed how much power I can put out on the bike for say 20minutes and how absolutely horrible I feel on rides past 2hrs...
Detraining vs. Tapering - same but different, the second we end a wko and rest we are essentially detraining, this is necessary to recover and adapt, tapering is balancing this time to allow that recovery while minimizing detraining.... The amount of time is as individual as the training itself....Tapering is partial art , partial science to get an individual to peak on race day, not the day before and not the day after....
Not a one size fits all- what works for @Poor Coach Patrick may not work for Tim Cronk.... Large Male vs. Small Male , Old vs. Young, Male vs. Female etc.... So its important to think like @Rich Stanbaugh and become educated but also observe via our own experiences/data what works for us....