Matt Limbert Coach Thread
Coach Patrick,
I have submitted my TSR survey. Here is a summary and some additional context.
2017 Racing:
Dec 2016 2:52 Marathon
Feb 2017 1:16 Half-Marathon
June 2017 Al Truscott Badass Camp Colorado
July 2017 Ironman 70.3 Canada - 5:02 (0:32 swim, 2:44 bike, 1:39 run)
Nov 2017 IM AZ 10:15 (1:00 swim, 5:15 bike, 3:52 marathon)
2017 Training progression:
OS, Advanced HIM, Advanced IM
2017 Insights:
I expected a better run at IM AZ. My bike was within or lower than race rehearsals (IF=.68, VI=.99, TSS= 250). I have several 20 mile runs at 7:20 / mile for the Thurs long run. No injuries. I plan to work with Core Diet to refine/improve my race day fueling strategy. I also intend to swim through the OS. I have a Master's group that I enjoy and it is easy for me to get there in the morning (<10 min drive). What recommendations / advice do you have?
2018 Events:
April Mallorca Camp - EN
June Al Truscott Colorado bike Camp
29 July - IM 70.3 Canada Whistler
Nov IM AZ
I have submitted my TSR survey. Here is a summary and some additional context.
2017 Racing:
Dec 2016 2:52 Marathon
Feb 2017 1:16 Half-Marathon
June 2017 Al Truscott Badass Camp Colorado
July 2017 Ironman 70.3 Canada - 5:02 (0:32 swim, 2:44 bike, 1:39 run)
Nov 2017 IM AZ 10:15 (1:00 swim, 5:15 bike, 3:52 marathon)
2017 Training progression:
OS, Advanced HIM, Advanced IM
2017 Insights:
I expected a better run at IM AZ. My bike was within or lower than race rehearsals (IF=.68, VI=.99, TSS= 250). I have several 20 mile runs at 7:20 / mile for the Thurs long run. No injuries. I plan to work with Core Diet to refine/improve my race day fueling strategy. I also intend to swim through the OS. I have a Master's group that I enjoy and it is easy for me to get there in the morning (<10 min drive). What recommendations / advice do you have?
2018 Events:
April Mallorca Camp - EN
June Al Truscott Colorado bike Camp
29 July - IM 70.3 Canada Whistler
Nov IM AZ
Tagged:
0
Comments
This year (2017) and next year (2018) will be about the same schedule (minus the new Mallorca Camp in 2018)
In 2017 followed:
Jan OS
Advanced HIM plan - stopped plan during Al Camp, picked up plan following Al Camp - ended for Canada 70.3
Advanced IM Plan - ended for IM AZ
@matt limbert - Analysis below and on our call...but first tell me about your races. You mention ^above^ the years will be the same but then you don't select Canada 70.3 or IMAZ, you instead select AZ 70.3...can you please tell me exactly what races you are doing for 2018?
Races You Submitted
Main Race:
04/18/2018 Mallorca EN Camp (bike)
06/01/2018 - Al Truscott Badass Colorado Camp (bike)
Ironman 70.3 Arizona (TBD) #703Arizona_18
+++++++
As for your race, this is what I see on Strava...note, there is no run file there, could really use it!
1) Your HR was way too high at the start. Took too long to get down. Contrast with @tim cronk Here: https://www.strava.com/activities/1282829762/analysis
2) Your HR doesn't "Settle" to normal long ride start levels until Halfway.
3) You regrouped but by the time you hit mile 95-ish you were pretty toast...not done, but unable to keep the pressure on the pedals.
My gut reaction is that swim + early bike at elevated HR just crushed you before you even got to the run.
Your HR file, If flipped on a vertical axis (aka read backwards) would be AWESOME RACE EXECUTION.
You are an incredible runner, but you still need to build your bike up to get you into a position where you can run.
I honestly think the HR variability did you in unless your gut blew up (we can discuss). As perspective...
• Me too aggressive in Cabo, but still "steady": https://www.strava.com/activities/1273103212/analysis
• Much better "Steady" file from IMMT https://www.strava.com/activities/1143993187/analysis
Hope to hear from you soon!
~ Coach P
Thanks for working on my TSR and looking at my race data.
For my TSR:
I updated my races / significant events
-Mallorca
-Al Truscott Camp - Colorado
-July 29, 2018 - IM 70.3 Canada
-Nov 18, 2018 - IM Arizona
For race data analysis:
Here is a link to my race report:
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/24215/limbert-ironman-arizona-race-report-2017#latest
Data files:
swim: http://tpks.ws/G2FCs
Bike: http://tpks.ws/4be76
Run: http://tpks.ws/5eD8I
Bike:
I see what you mean by "reversing" both my bike and run files....
The dip in HR late in the bike that you note is me attempting to pee on the bike one last time on my way down beeline. Yes, it did take me that long to figure it out - I am still working on that skill. Although, once I got that taken care of I didn't do a good job of getting back on my HR and power numbers. The data looked good while I was riding, but in retrospect I could have been more disciplined late and learning when I am "settled" early....
Run:
I felt that I was doing a good job of running slow and getting my HR under control, but I might need to go even slower or walk more up front to run faster at the end. My pace felt super slow and my self talk was very positive. My long bike and run HR during RRs is 140 -142. My goal was to use the "art" of RPE all day and the "science" of HR and power to ensure I didn't over do it. I used conservative limits based on my RRs, 5 hour rides and long runs. In both case, bike and run, as soon as I see the 140-142 numbers I considered my "HR settled."
In terms of my gut. The best way I can describe it is a tightness. I did not throw up. I did not cramp, either in my gut or body. I was overly concerned about it and started to play too much defense. I started to focus on it rather than the race. I didn't know it at the time, but Satish and Tim Cronk were chasing me. They were focused on me, I was focused on my gut. I don't experience gut problems in training or RR, so problem solving it in the race was tricky. I took my last Clif Shot gu just after my extended pee break (approx 30 minutes to go on the bike). I didn't take my next Clif shot until 45 min into the run. This was most likely too late. I also took 1x Double Expresso Clif (100 mg) caffeine / per hour during the last 2 hours of the bike. So my last 2x Clif Shot GU on the bike were heavily caffeinated, but my first Clif Shot GU on the run was not. Seems minor at the time, but timing of those calories and caffeine later in the race seem to make a difference. Otherwise, I used GE for the first half marathon and coke for the second half. I plan to change with 2x GE + 2 clif blocks w/ extra sodium on the bike (same calorie and sodium as GU but give my stomach something more solid earlier, then shift to caffienated gu on the run - taking it a little sooner.) I plan to have Core diet go over my fueling plan to ensure that I am not missing something and practice it with all my training and race rehearsals etc.
In review, I learned that I need to shorten the time between efforts during RRs in order to better simulate race conditions. I would typically wait 20-30 minutes between my swim-run and bike-run RR, just due to driving/logistics or poor organization. I thought this was "good enough." Its not. Not against apex predators. I need to make these days more race realistic. I need to make the Big Days and RRs more like RACE rehearsals in order to get similar race HR and RPE conditions. I now see those minutes are critical, as my body quickly recovers and potentially skews continuous nature managing RPE and HR in a race. It seemed minor at the time, but if I want to learn to manage a 9:xx race, I need to simulate the continuous nature of the race. Also, I need to stay focused on the race. My gut distracted me from a competitive mindset late in the race. Understanding what is urgent malfunction vs. racing stress I hope will come with more experience.
For 2018 season I was thinking:
I ran the numbers (TSS, IF, NP, etc), and to move up the age group food chain I'll need to make gains in fueling and execution skills along with pure bike and run fitness.
Goals/focus areas:
Flexibility and core strength all year: more aero position + run durability + injury prevention
-Jan - Apr (end at Mallorca: build FTP and sustained climbing strength on the bike. Run Durability. Swim technique, fueling/hydration/nutrition review by Core Diet. Re-evaluate my aero position with Todd Kenyon. (He fit me 2 years ago and I might be time to take another look at it...)
-May - July (end at Whislter 70.3): HIM intensity + with longer/additional rides and mental toughness at tempo (Bike, run). Build long run strength/duration on fatigued legs.
-Aug - Nov (end at IM AZ): transition FTP gains, climbing strength and HIM tempo intensity to 5 hour power, Longer Brick runs, fueling/hydration focus on big days and RR, along lower early HR discipline on big days and RRs.
I considered doing 2X IM this year instead of 1x 70.3 and 1x IM in order to gain more IM racing experience. I considered replacing 70.3 Canada with IM Mont-Treblant. But, I liked the idea how the season would progress in terms of OS FTP + strength build, HIM intensity and then IM. Maybe 2X IM in 2019?
I live in California and I can/will ride outside year round. But, I plan get my intensity rides on Zwift because its the easiest way to get the intensity without the cars and the traffic and will most likely balance that with longer ABP rides outside.
What else do I need to consider incorporating or focusing on to move up the age group food chain?
Here's your updated Season Plan, as promised. This is where you'll return to post all your "coach" questions as responses; I'll see them and reply. This first post is my best outline of how to proceed with your races, but you can ask any / all questions you want. So post away, know that I reply here usually M/W/F each week.
Power User Tip: Click the Star icon by the Title of this thread to subscribe, and you'll get email updates when I do reply.
Your Notes
See forum post ^above^ ... OS, Advanced HIM, Advanced IM, No injuries.Coming off 10:15 @ IM AZ
Your Races
Season Update
These are your recommended training plans, including the date you should start each one (sometimes you won’t complete a full plan but transition to another one). You can change your plans on the Training Plan page by clicking the Move / Change button. Learn more about each plan on the Training Plan Central Page.
Last updated by Coach on 12/11/2017
Coach Notes
Let's get to work!
~ Coach P
1) Thanks for the TSR and the video. Thanks for taking a look at my race data again too. The mistakes you mention (i.e. starting too hard on the bike) were some of the mistakes I was trying to avoid. But, that's one of the reasons I like the IM distance, is that if there is any weakness in your preparation or execution it will show up in the race. And although I avoided some mistakes, some I could only learn where my preparation and execution skills are at by racing. (Although, early bike pacing is a rookie mistake.)
2) Your comments about "your expectations based on good run fitness" really resonated with me. I get it. While a measure of fitness, there is a lot more I need to learn in execution to leverage the run better. I see where I need to get a lot more right leading up to the run (i.e. early bike effort, hydration, nutrition, etc.). While I thought I was "settled in" - I wasn't and I need to be even more patient at the beginning of the bike (i.e. letting my HR / power / RPE get WAY below my RR RPE & data. And now I see that although, I rode conservative based on RR data - that data / RPE was most likely a bit skewed based on too much time between events. I get it. A good try, but far from ninja execution. I can definitely improve my organization and logistics to make my RR as realistic as possible. Its only a matter of organization and more forethought. Its all fixable and doable - but that is for later in season. For now, I'm focused on run durability, developing good habits for flexibility/foam rolling - remain healthy and gain bike fitness to apply to my future self's better execution skills.
3) You commented that I need to "Get used to riding my bike harder...." That light bulb went on for me after talking this past weekend with Paul Curtin. He walked me through his "crush" intervals and "inside out" workouts - and I see what he did was at another level of focus and intensity - and doing it consistently. So, yes. Bike intensity and "defining a new level of what is hard on the bike" will be a goal for the OS (and the rest of the season), - then I can focus on my execution / dial in my nutrition during the RRs and Canada 70.3 to setup the run.
4) Thanks I feel good about the plan. Thanks for the encouragement and insight. I'm eager to get to work and following up with you after a couple weeks in the OS.
for both. I’m happy to see you’re not taking any of my assessment personally, as it is certainly not intended that way.
Cue the music for Paul or Tim or Al or Jenn or Dawn. One of the easiest ways to make room for your bike to Grow is to make your run a little less flashy. I’m not talking about your entire season but certainly for key parts of it.
I would like your advice on an early season Ironman using my OS fitness.
I am considering IM Santa Rosa - May 12.
What would my training look like and what is your recommendation?
Here is my situation after completing the Advanced OS - bike focus:
Recap of season:
- 04/14/2018 Cycling - Mallorca Camp
- 06/01/2018 Cycling - Al Truscott Colorado Camp
- July 29, 2018 - IM 70.3 Canada
- Nov 18, 2018 - IM Arizona
Current Volume: Swim 8800 yds, bike: ~180 miles, run: ~45 miles (last week)CTL: 134, TSB: -30, Ramp Rate: ~7
I have made significant improvements in my FTP this OS. The changes to the OS, worked well for me. I increased by FTP to 314 and I worked on my body composition, which together have helped my W/kg ratio. I get 8 hours of sleep and I did a better job of managing my work and rest balance this OS. My morning heart rate is a bit higher, most likely due to the training load of the last few weeks but I felt good enough to give myself a IM fitness test before Mallorca this past weekend just to see where I stand and what I need to work on. You mentioned a couple of things that I incorporated this OS: make my run "less flashy" at least for certain parts of the season - in this case I did more work in the Easy and Aerobic zones, focused less on pace per run and more on cadence and rhythm; I also focused on building the overall bike power which has improved - through Zwift races, use of ERG mode workouts and outside roadie rides; finally you mentioned racing at a lower heart rate (after reviewing my IM AZ data - when I benchmarked my day at 142-145 racing heart rate which (as you pointed out) was just too high and I aerobically decoupled in the warm conditions by the end of the bike) - therefore I wanted to try starting easier and benchmarking my day a bit lower was a goal).
I did a abbreviated I race rehearsal. I swam 4800 yds, rode 99 miles, and ran 13.1 miles. I figured if it went south at any time, then it was easy to call it a day and go back to the drawing board. The weather was absolutely perfect - overcast, 60-65 all day with the wind picking up across the day. Here are the results w/ links to TP files and a short narrative:
Swim 2.7 miles - 63 min @ 1:19 pace - with sim shorts short course pool
Swim Data: http://tpks.ws/RX6Z3CTNQ6UPQOJXBH3NCMI7FI
Swim Narrative: The sim shorts certainly helped. I felt relaxed the entire time. I let my watch count distance. I swam for a hour, which is usually just short of the 2.4 mile swim. I was surprised to see 4800 yds. I watched the clock and my mental math was around 1:20-25 min/100 yds or so I thought. Bottom Line, I swam relaxed and aerobically.
T1: 15-20 minutes
Bike 99 miles - 5:03 (5:35 total time), (~@ 20 mph pace)
Bike File: http://tpks.ws/YG7XD5JIYJVQENVMY5EWKHHABY
Bike Narrative: I have chased power numbers in the past and thought my racing heart rate was around 142-145. This time I rode more by RPE and wanted to keep my heart rate below 142. I thought 135-138 would be great. I was also just re-fit on my bike by Todd Kenyon and wanted to know if my new lower position would hold up over that long haul. The position worked out good and I rode faster, with a lower heart rate and lower power than anytime last year during my race rehearsals for IM AZ. (Though, not a completely fair comparison - those were hotter rehearsals. But, looks like an encouraging improvement to me.) The ride looked good from a data perspective: IF=0.59, NP=180, TSS=205, 2.3 W/kg, Pwr:Hr for the entire ride 6.89% which is a little high, but my 1 hour lap segments are all under 5% - so I remained aerobically coupled during the ride, which makes sense considering the low heart rate and IF). Nutrition was a bottle of GE and 3 shot blocks per hour - which fits into the high end of 3.5 Cal/kg/hr which seemed to work. No GI issues. No significant weight loss. I was 1 pound lighter when I got back. I had to pee a lot, so less water loss due to sweat, again the weather was optimal.
T2: 15-20 minutes
Run: 13.1 miles -1:35 (~7:16 pace)
http://tpks.ws/ZZESUA5POKNE76PGBG5M5IYGTY
I felt that if this race rehearsal went well, I would consider IM Santa Rosa. I haven't done the long rides (5+ hours) or the long runs (2 hours). Going into this fitness test I didn't expect much - considering I was carrying some training load (TSB: -25 ish). I thought the ride or the run would fall apart and I would learn where I needed to focus for the next phase of training. I'm surprised and really happy with the OS and how my fitness has progressed. im getting fit. Thanks. What do I do now?
Here are the options that I am considering - and I am open to more:
1. Do nothing. Be happy that I have great fitness. Just follow the plan as you laid out earlier,
I would ride the bike harder. I would spend the time between Mallorca and Al Camp doing more Zwift racing and some outside group rides while starting the 70.3 build with a bit more volume. This would bring my peak my bike CTL to around 80 (25% of my FTP). For reference my bike CTL in prep for Canada 70.3 last year was about 52 and for AZ it was about 60, which was (20% of my FTP at the the time). April is pretty much Travel - Mallorca - Travel. We will show up early and leave late from Mallorca doing some tourist stuff before and after Camp. That puts me at roughly May 1 which is 12 weeks out from Canada 70.3. So I could emphasize Zwift racing and adding additional ABP time to the weekend rides to dial-in the IM race heart rate, power and RPE experiment with ways to slowly build the bike CTL. My run CTL seems good, I would try to fit in a bit more riding and see how my body feels.
2. Experiment with IM Santa Rosa. I would race to put these new ideas to the test and learn some more about racing in warmer conditions and the impacts to my nutrition plan. But, I might punch a big hole in my training and I don't know what to do with the weeks between now an IM Santa Rosa (May 12). We leave for Mallorca April 9. The travel, time zones, new country etc will make the week before camp easier and then the same thing on the return. What would my training look like over the next 6 weeks?
I learned a lot from my little race rehearsal - The bike position works! Nutrition worked in easy to control conditions. I'm close on dialing-in the correct bike effort. I will need to get my IF a bit higher, but not at the expense of heart rate. Staying aerobic is key, which will be more challenging in warmer weather. Blah, Blah, Blah...
I did some homework on IM Santa Rosa. It was 80+ degrees last year. Different bike course this year - back to the old Vineman course. I guess they changed it last year, lots of complaints about crappy roads. Other than the bike course will be hilly 3900 ft of rolling terrain - run along a creek trail - no shade, no fan support blah, blah, blah...
Thanks for reading. I look forward to hearing from you. Matt
I am really pleased with your mental and physical progress. It's not easy to slow down and work on doing it right vs doing it faster, but you have made huge strides. Those bike numbers are legit...nothing like riding 20mph on .59 IF!!!! You'd be running an IM Marathon off a bike that was 230 TSS...crazy.
So, I think we go for IMSR, but not in the "lock in six weeks and crush yourself" mentally kind of way (If that's your plan then I say no). Rather, your fitness is great. All numbers look good. You need a few key workouts (and weekends) as you recently did but not much more. This will allow you to compete a little "pressure free" and leave room for the rest of your year if you want to get stronger.
This is what I think you should do.
1) Load the Full Bike Focus Plan to end on IMSR and let's use that to frame your work.
2) Between now and Mallorca we will want to get in a split long run (this Sunday) of 10 and 10. All steady. Friday is Swim and Saturday long...or Swim+Bike Saturday (another 6 hour day). Rest of next week follow the plan as best you can and get that long run in before we start camp on Sunday (don't worry bout long rides before camp).
3) We do Mallorca camp and you commit to running off every bike...like 20 to 30 minutes. Nothing crazy, just let it add up. Swim as you are able. Wednesday is OFF like everyone else though. End of camp (Sat? Sun?) is another 10/10 split run in Spain. Maybe we can sit down one night to talk about a race plan, etc
4) I don't know your return plans, but that week of 4/23 is your last real big week. We'll want two longer runs this week: a Split one early of 8/8, and then a long steady one on Sunday of about 2 hours. That will be your only real long run...again, TRP effort there with the last 30 minutes pushing a bit harder. Friday of that week is a long swim (5k) and Saturday is a long bike aerobat FLAT session.
5) Week of 4/30 is time to swim like 16k to 18k...lots of sim shorts and pulling. You should plan on an easy 4 hour Saturday ride and a Thursday run of a bout 90 minutes...30' at TRP, then 60' at Goal Race HR/Pace. Sunday OFF.
6) Last week is swim another 16k to 18k. A few bikes and runs but not much else here.
LMK what you think!!!
~ Coach P
Thanks for the chat while riding on Sunday and vote of confidence for racing sooner. All of your comments above and on our chat sound good to me. I have two interests:
Part I - Race plan
Part II - Training for the next few weeks
Part I -Race Plan Stuff:
Here is my research and my initial race process goals.
My goal is to keep it as simple as possible.
Overall is to stay aerobic all day. Nail the nutrition (hydration and water) and remain present in the moment on the bike and run.
Swim
Course descriptions: 2x loop swim lake. ILast year it was borderline wetsuit legal - I have a swim skin if necessary. There is a steeply inclined boat ramp and quarter mile run to transition out the swim - which makes heart rate control post-swim more challenging. I plan to walk with a purpose up the boat ramp and jog (really slow) for the quarter mile to transition - keeping it easy as possible without walking.
-Race process goal: Swim easy and stay aerobic or easy. Nothing fancy.
Bike:
-Course description: 2x loops. Initial steep climb out of swim, 3 miles decent, 3 mile climb - then rolling. 70% of the course is either +/- 2% grade, with 9% of the course between 2-5%. So, nothing intense. But a lot of up and down, rolling, false flat etc. 3x 5+% grades at 5-8 minutes each. (Chalk Hill x2 and some other no name hill)
-Bike process goal: Nail the basics - HR, VI efficiency and nutrition. Focus on:
Get heart rate down and keep it down. Ride at whatever power 138 or less gives me, and shoot for the 195 NP, staying easy/aerobic. Arizona I biased my HR a bit too high and was not patient long enough to let it settle. I got to
-Focus on a low VI and cadence efficiency. Nothing fancy. The first 9 miles will give me some challenges for getting the HR down with the short steep climb out of T1 and the 3 mile climb. The rolling and gradual grades tend to lull me into using power vice cadence to climb. So, staying present, using cadence and efficiency to adapt to the terrain vice absently plowing away on a bigger gear is a significant goal.
-Power target of 190-200 is approx 2.72 W/Kg, and ).62 IF - which I know is low. But, since I have not run 20-30 minutes within my marathon PR off the bike yet, I figured I would go conservative. Especially, if it is warm ~80 degrees.
-Nutrition: Focus on staying hydrated and fueled to set up the run. 1x GE bottle + 3 GU shot blocks per hour is the baseline 60ish degrees. I will add 1x bottle of water per hour if 75+ degrees or warmer. The difference I plan for this race is to stay easy and areobic earlier and longer. There appears to be a big efficiency difference for me above 138. I don't feel that different at 140-143, but over the longer race I might be sacrificing the ability to absorb calories and fluid. I typically sweat a lot - so absorbing the fluid I need has been a challenge in the past. But I hope to absorb more if I am smarter with pacing earlier. I have used Base Salt in the past but don't have any data or reference on quantity, timing etc. (Pre-EN). Could use some advice.
Run:
Course description: 3x loop. Not a lot of fan support, path along creek. Hot, mixed with some shade. Generally flat (60 ft of ascent and descent).
-Run process goals: Easy early and aerobic. No pace goals. Stay on the hydration and nutrition. 1x GU taken in parts over an hour, alternate GE and water. Read my body for what it needs. Race saver bag for ice etc. Nothing fancy.
Thoughts?
Part II - Training next few weeks
Camp Week: Play this by feel - but I plan to run or swim after the rides (alternate days) and let the time just add up. But we'll see how I feel.
Sat will be off or a short run - we move to a new place on Mallorca - farm country, Sencelles.
Sun 10/10 split long run in
Mon Run (?)
Tues - OffTravel
Wed - Off Arrive in CA morning. See how I feel. Swim?
Thurs - 8/8 split long run - per guidance above
Fri - Big Swim 5k - per-guidance above (why?)
Sat - Long Ride - pre the plan (112 miles TSS between 270 and 310; IF 0.70 Pacing and nutrition as if race day.) Aerobar session, flat. per-guidance above.
Sun - Sunday of about 2 hours. That will be your only real long run...again, TRP effort there with the last 30 minutes pushing a bit harder. - per guidance above
This week feels and looks like a mash up of the Full IM bike focused plan, your guidance above and reading my own body. At this point I am 2 weeks out. My goal should be to do workouts leaving me wanting more, with enough intensity to keep me focused and sharp - nothing that would drain me. Correct? What other guidance should I keep in mind here?
Mon - Swim - 45 min
Tues - Swim - 45 min + Run 50, w/ tempo section (optional ?)
Wed - Bike - 3 x 6' (4') @ Zone 4. TSS: 82, IF: 0.81 - 75 min (do just enough work to stay sharp)
Thurs - Run long 90 min TRP - per guidance
Fri - Swim RR 75 min (?)
Sat - Easy 4 hour ride aerobars - per guidance
May 5 Sun - Off
May 12 (Sat) race
Race week Follow-standard taper
Thanks for reading. Thanks for the advice. Thanks for a really cool camp. I look forward to talking with you more.
Matt
From a macro level, I love you aerobic focus. That is key. Aside from maybe a few strategic parts of that bike course, there’s no reason you should be over exerting yourself. Your goal is to go out and establish a rhythm and others will eventually struggle to maintain what is your version of steady.
Swim is good. I prefer wetsuit but if it’s warm / borderline go skin.
Bike - we need you to settle in but I don’t want you to go backwards on those early hills. You can be steady on them as long as you plan to have room to recover once they are through. Maybe a 145 hr target here...then you back off.
No no water on the bike please. Only more GE. Water only is evil. If it will be hit the early fluids matter more. So 2 bottles first hour (or 2 hrs) then 1 bottle for rest...water over head and body to keep hr down.
If you have to then you need to supplement with salt. For salt I prefer salt stick pills 1 per hour.
For your bloks do this:
H1 - 3 non caffeine
H2 - 3 non caffeine
H3 - 3 caffeine
H4 - 3 non caff
H5 - 3 caffeine
T2 = half a banana as you exit.
On the run run the first 6 miles of HR and food matter most. If it’s going to be hot, then you need to be soaking wet answering T2 to keep your heart rate down and don’t ramp it up with the temperature. I recommend you want to have two gels in those first 6 miles, basically double what you’re planning. I also suggest doing GE every aid. Water only if it’s critical.
If you prefer base salts on the run, that’s fine. I continue to take one of those salt stick pills per hour only this time I usually use the caffeinated ones. All your gels on the run should be caffeinated.
Eventually you will need to alternate Gatorade and Coke my station and finally it will be cold calling as you’re pushing to get done. If your fingers to tingle eat half of banana, and feel free to munch on a banana instead of having a Gel after the first hour.
As the heat bills, you will need to continue staying soaking wet. Do you need ice in your hat and down your shirt. I recommend some kind of belt around your waist so that the ice does not fall out of your tri top. I often will run with the Fuelbelt just so that the ice doesn’t fall out.
Ask your training, I like one over distance swim just to set your head straight. Weekend rides are perfect, we want the aerobar time and excellent nutrition per the above. You should be practicing your nutrition for the bike and run sessions from here on out.
Your fitness is exactly are you going to get right now, which is super high. Now it’s all about the details and recovering enough so you are ready to do the work. Keep me posted!
Thanks - that was perfect. Everything I was looking for. I'll post a race
plan for the community input. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for the
advice and the training.
Matt
Thanks for all the above ^^. I owe you and the larger EN community - for your/their encouragement and advice.
"Your goal is to go out and establish a rhythm and others will eventually struggle to maintain what is your version of steady." - Coach P
- I carried this with me all day.
Here are my splits for the marathon:
7:46, 7:50, 8:03, 8:02, 8:04, 8:05, 8:01, 7:54, 8:12, 7:53, 7:52, 7:54, 8:06, 8:05, 7:59, 8:01, 8:01, 7:28, 7:32, 7:17, 7:13, 7:34, 7:20, 7:30, 7:43
Never looked at pace. Just ran by feel and HR.....
I have some work to do on the bike to develop the same sense of sustained RPE and efficiency I have for the run.
At the end, I didn't know if I was in 3rd or 103rd - all I knew was that it felt like racing and it was fun.
I'm writing a race report. But, I wanted send you a note for thanks.
Talk to you soon.
It was fantastic to watch you work your way through the field at the end of
that bike and throughout the run.
We were all jumping up and down looking at your pace relative to the
competition over the last 10 today. I bet you felt like you were flying
past people.
I know there will be lots of lessons learned from this, and I can’t wait
to see them all the catch up in Colorado. Congratulations on punching your
ticket. It’s been a multi year journey and there’s no doubt you belong on
the Big Island in October!!
~ Coach P
@Coach Patrick
I would like your advice for Kona.
I am anticipating using HR all day and expecting to adapt to lower power numbers for the bike and run - based on the heat & humidity. What else am I too naive or too conservative about? What am I missing?
My goal is to stay present and process focused. I want to make decisions that keep me aerobically disciplined and executing my fueling plan under the conditions (heat, humidity, wind - while biking, lack of wind - while running, and super fit athletes in my face all day - doing all kinds of random things etc).
We went to watch the race in 2016. Swam the course. Rode to Hawi. Ran Ali', Queen K and Energy lab. So I have a little understanding of the course. I have read race reports from you, Mike Roberts, Jenn Edwards and Jeremy - all have been super helpful as always.
Here is a summary of my training data, training narrative and my macro plan for Kona:
Training Data:
Current Volume: Swim 14000 yds, bike: ~256 miles, run: ~52 miles (last big week ending 23 Sept)
CTL: 132, TSB: 5, FTP: 280, Sleep 7-8 / night, morning HR is trending down, HRV trending up (all good signs, right?), Body Composition: 72 kg / 160 lbs (any lower right now and I get really grumpy)
5 Hour rides: 2.6 W/kg, 188 w/ Avg HR 130. Heart rate distribution: 56% @130-138, only 7% above 138, and the other 37% below 130) TSS ~ 220 (a 10+ watt gain from IM SR).
13 mile brick runs: ~270 NP, 175-180 cadence, w/ Avg HR @ 139. Heart rate Distribution: 39% @ 140-145, 15% above 145, the remainder 46% below 140). 5-7% Pwr:HR aerobic decoupling. 270 was also my 2+ hour long run power, but my avg HR during a stand alone long run was <130 for the same power.
Training Narrative:
Things have gone well. I like the way my volume transitioned from 70.3 focus mid-summer to IM volume in the last 8 weeks. My swim has improved since IM Santa Rosa - but I plan to use my swim fitness to "swim with less cost." These last few weeks I focused specifically on run HR & run power pacing off the bike. I have done 4x 100 mile rides and follow-on brick runs of 60+ minutes. The focus for the bike was to: increase the amount of time in the 130-138 HR zone, limit power early by staying within 10-15% of my expected NP for the entire ride, and limiting time above 140. The focus for the run was to: maximize the time between 130-138 HR zone, keep cadence around 175-180 and 270-280 for 3sec power for the run. My nutrition remained the same 1 to 1.5 bottle GE + 4 shot blocks on the bike per hour, GE and GU on the run and 2-4 salt stick caps / hour depending on the heat.
The numbers look good and I feel pretty good too. That is not typically my problem. I lack experience at racing IM and in Kona conditions (heat, humidity, super fit athletes doing all kinds of random things.)
Macro plan for Kona:
Stay disciplined and patient, because I want to run the marathon. My aerobic is good enough.
Swim: My easy start will be fast enough. Expect chop & contact early. Find a draft that fits MY rhythm and focus on good sighting. Nothing fancy.
Bike: Expect wind both ways and all day. Expect to get passed early / often and deal with draft packs. Use out and back on Kuakini to get control of HR and limit power early. Stay alert - here - lots of other athletes playing with computers and missing with bottles/gels etc. Find your aerobic rhythm on Queen K, Hawi (up and down). Keep the pressure on after the climb to Wiakoloa. This is when the early discipline and patience should pay off. Fueling/Hydration: 2x bottles in the first hour. Stay on schedule per hour (1-1.5 GE bottles depending on sweat rate, 4x shot blocks, 2-4 salt caps) + stay wet. GE in me. Water on me.
T2: Enter T2 and leave T2 soaking wet. Use aid station in transition.
Run: Ali = Easy. Low power & get control of heart rate. Walk the aid station early, if necessary. Be patient. Respect the work required to return from the Energy Lab. Find a rhythm and get on a fueling/hydration schedule that sets up the run on Queen K. After the climb on Palani and onto the highway - at this point I expect it to be all about adapting to conditions, staying wet, and finding whatever combination of cadence, HR and power that enables me to fuel and run. The down and back to the Energy Lab + the highway return will require significant concentration. The return from the Energy Lab is the second half the the race. I know its only 9-ish miles, but this is when the early run discipline and patience should pay off. I'll run with a hat, race saver bag and elastic belt (tight enough to keep ice in my jersey) - all to keep ice on me. To keep my focused on my form I'll use (Cadence, HR, power) or (HR only) on my watch. Nutrition: GE in me, water & ice on me, 3-4x salt caps per hour - 1 per 15-20 mins. 2x GU first hour, then 1x Gu taken in parts over the hour Once on Coke - stay on Coke.
What am I missing? What else do I need to consider? I plan to post a race plan in the forum too. Thanks for the help.
@matt limbert - Sorry this took me so long to reply to you. I’ve had it open on my computer for a few days and just keep getting distracted. My bad.
Overall I think you are focused on all of the right things. I like how you challenge yourself by staying in the zone versus challenging yourself to hit some lifetime best performance. It is incredibly tempting to join in the Mayham but I don’t think it’s worth it in your first rodeo. Personally I like your heart rate parameters as an opportunity for you to see exactly how you perform in those conditions, especially because how you are approaching it will give you a baseline against which you can make future strategic changes.
It appears that you know all of the unknowns that are out there, but that doesn’t mean things will get hard at some point and exceed your parameters of control. At the end of the day I think we can summarize your approach to be something like this: roll with the punches. When things are good enjoy it, when they get tough stick to what you know.
The only edit I have for your plan is a warning to make sure you don’t drink too much while on the run. It gets really hot and it’s very tempting to overcompensate and drink a lot. Too much fluid in your gut or really set you back regardless of your pace. That, and don’t forget to keep a smile on your face all day.
Even your build seems really deliberate...me likey!! 👍
what future me would tell current me about the race and my preparation......
BTW. I would totally have drank myself to oblivion on the run. Great to
know! Thanks again. And thanks for the video this morning. Look forward to
seeing you there.
It’s hard for me to give you exact advice because the extreme conditions on the island because everyone’s body to react differently. It really digs in and exposes your weaknesses. I have found that it’s better to be conservative with those fluids and let them be something that you add in as you go versus start strong and then have to deal with later.
I also recommend focusing on key aid stations versus every aid station. I say that because a lot of people will just go nuts that each one. I will need to get to the island for us to think that through given the new course layout and likely a change in the early mile markers so let’s follow up on that. Travel safely
@Coach Patrick
Who else is doing Leadville MTB this year?
You rattled off a list of folks - I want to tag them in a Leadville MTB thread I'm starting. Thanks.
@matt limbert I'll do you one better, there's a GroupMe group and you can join them: https://groupme.com/join_group/47550975/zbnNbx
I tried to add you as well...hopefully it works! Not all of them are in the forums (some of them are PlanEN only) but please add your mojo!!!!
~ Coach P
@Coach Patrick
Thanks for the video this morning. I'm still interested in the France camp. My wife wants to come, but will not ride. Are you bringing your family?
Thanks, Matt
Matt - you’re welcome, and thanks for the kudos. We would love to have you at camp in France, it’s going to be epic. Bringing a spouse alone is a bit of a challenge because of the logistics of transporting everyone from town to town this is going to be a point to point event with the exception of one Village where we will spend two days.
I am going to be meeting my family at the end of the trip to spend another week in France, this way it’s just one ticket for me and they aren’t getting shuffled around the countryside.
I will be announcing the camp very shortly and maybe you and I can get on the phone and discuss? Set up a call with me for next week here: https://calendly.com/pmccrann/15min
@Coach Patrick
@matt limbert what’s up brother? I don’t see anything here but I’m standing by ready to help.
It was great to talk with you on Thurs. Thanks for looking into France camp. I look forward to helping you wherever I can.
I would like your ideas and thoughts on training for Leadville MTB. My strength is that I have the time to train. My weakness is that I have time to train. I believe that I went into Kona last year fatigued, attempting to gain additional fitness in late Aug-mid Sept I did too much above threshold intensity on the bike AND the run. Although I felt okay, those workouts really took me too deep and had some residual cost in accumulated fatigue.
My goal is to build on a early season FRC work, add some fatigue resistance - but bias towards more recovery.
January through March I did a lot of FRC work and saw some good changes in VO2max, FTP, FRC. April was a mountain bike stage race in North Carolina (5 stages over 5 days) and rode BWR. I just finished a recovery week and feel ready to knock out some good work for Leadville. My VO2max, FTP and FRC, TSS and you name it metrics - have all dropped since the high in the end of March. I feel good and confident that a little more structured work and they will all come around again.
So....
Big training idea: . With my my focus on fatigue resistance - my key metrics are total time in sub-threshold, power at the end of 4.5 ABP ride, and then feet climbed. I figure sustained power at sub-threshold, and power produced after I am fatigued (post 4.5 hr ride) are good indicators of fatigue resistance. Heart rate and power data are interesting, but with the race at altitude I am going to have to rely more on RPE than pure heart rate and power because those metrics will be much different on race day.
Logistics, Body Comp, & Reconnaissance: We are going to Colorado early. Spending some time at 9,000 feet two weeks out, then Leadville one week out. So, I have a decent chance at gaining some altitude adaptation. I have always felt a little better at the end of Al Camp after the week, so I figure another week with reasonable rides I should get some adaptation. I have a goal race weight in mind but I don't want to obsess about it. If I get there great, if not this weight works too. I hope to recon the course a bit after Al Camp. I read Scott Dinhofer's race report, Robert Chose's podcast with you, there is a Leadville podcast I'm following and watched a good chunk of GoPro trail video on trail genius. I have talked to some folks and will test drive some specific tires - which after my BWR experience, tire choice is more complicated than just picking good road bike tire. My nutrition has switched to more bars then gu/gels and my hydration is on track. It got a good test drive during BWR and I'll get another shot at Al Camp and some of the longer rides I have planned. I still need to workout my aid station routine - switching camelback etc. Equipment, nutrition, course recon, training specificity in the remaining 12 weeks.
Timeline:
Goal Race: Leadville MTB Aug 10
Prep Race: Tahoe MTB 60 miles July 13
Prep Camp: Al Camp Colorado June 1-8, followed by Leadville Recon June 9-15
Next 12 weeks. 3 week blocks (2 build + 1 Recovery). I will put my run into maintenance/durability mode. No intervals, just easy run. Nothing flashy. ~20-25 miles a week, maybe less if I feel it impacts the bike too much. Its too hard to get started after zero running. I like to run and it keeps my weight down. I'll do a 1+ hour run once every 3 weeks just to keep me honest, but really just focus on shorter runs. It will be the first thing to decrease, if I don't feel like I am recovering or building too much fatigue. I will put my swim in maintenance mode swimming 2x week. Again, it is too hard to work my way back, I have a low admin cost, it gives me some upper body strength work and I think it helps with my mobility. The bike will be my focus of effort. I plan for one easy day per week that is swim only.
These are the bike workouts I intend to spread over 3x weeks: (5 rides per week as 2 hard, 1 moderate , 2 easy).After Al Camp mid-June, swap in sub-threshold work and sustained long climb day as the harder days. I need to include at least 1 day on the mountain bike just for position and confidence on dirt, rocks, bike handling etc. Leadville is not super technical but a mountain bike skills day it is a good way to get another easy bike day again.
I plan to work these 5 rides into a week. Varying the pattern over the 2 build weeks based on recovery.
1x 1.5-2 hrs determined by PDC / FRC modeling curve best place to test - making progressive builds
1x Split ride (3.5 mid week ABP/longer interval or Over/under threshold intervals ride AM, followed by a 2 hr MTB PM)
1x 1.5 hrs Easy, or sustained sub-threshold interval work, or climb day)
1x Easy mountain bike skills day
Rotate through these over the 3 week cycle as the fifth ride of the week.
Weekend #1: 3.5-4.5 hr weekend ABP ride
Weekend #2: 4-4.5 hr weekend ABP ride + ending with 20 threshold or 30 min at sub-threshold on the trainer.
Weekend #3: Long aerobic bike 6+ hours
Thoughts? Advice? Concerns?
This is in my inbox, I hope to have an answer for you by Thursday!
@matt limbert Okay, here we go. I think yo have done some great work already this year, so your foundation is good.
And the BWR was legit and proof of your fitness. That said, what’s required for Leadville success?
1. Overall Endurance and Fueling Strategy
2. Sustained Zone 3 time…these are the 30’ to 60’ efforts where you are likely climbing and doing work.
3. Short Super Threshold intervals for the key bursts (passing) and steep areas you climb. These are 110% to likely 130% FTP.
You are well on track for #1.
I think your split ride day ABP block is a good place to build up the 85% time (3 x 20, 3 x 25, 3 x 30, etc. With short breaks). The MTB ride later that day will improve that fatigue resistance fo sho.
The FRC stuff is still critical all year, you know this. The 1’ to 4’ range is what you should be targeting, with goal of 15’ total time above 95% VO2 each week across all workouts (not just the one).
Here’s how I think this should play out.
- 3 weeks as 2 work 1 recover
- block 1 is 2x FRC 1-2’ intervals, 1xSplit Day (ABP + MTB), Long ride on weekend at ABP, "Swing ride" on Weekend on MTB of adventure / aerobic time 3-4 hours (replaces easy day)
- Block 2 is 2x FRC 3-4’ intervals, 1xSplit Day (ABP + MTB), Long ride on weekend at ABP+threshold finish, "Swing ride" on Weekend on MTB of adventure / aerobic time 3-4 hours (replaces easy day)
Beyond here is TBD.
Note, the Recovery week can have easy rides with some FRC "Town Line" sprints in there but that’s really it. You can do ONE hard session that week….maybe a local MTB mountain TT climb? Something like a 40’ effort but because it’s technical you can’t get too obsessed…
Thoughts?