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Exploring Final Surge as the EN Plan Viewer + Training Log Solution (Reply by 12/15 please!)

Coach PatrickCoach Patrick
in WSM Admin
Folks, you should already have an invitation in your inbox from Me / Final Surge to join.  Once you confirm that invitation, I'll be able to apply a plan to your account so you can see how the system works (desktop and mobile). 

Why Explore Final Surge?

For Athletes
  • Not having a training log associated with EN is a massive deal breaker for new athletes, this eliminates that friction.
  • Ability to move / manage workouts to create a "true calendar" of workouts to come (or done)...long-standing request from Current EN members. 
  • Calendar reminders for workouts (also greatly desired).
  • EN workouts on Desktop and Mobile, fully functional, editable, etc. 
  • Integration with Strava, Garmin connect, etc, so data is automatically loaded to your log. 
For Administration
  • Would be a click away in the navigation (like the Forums are) and mobile friendly (unlike current plans).
  • Ability to outsource training log creation / update / management to third-party vendor (vs building from scratch).
  • Ability to scale EN membership to forms such as "Plans Only" and "Plans + Team" as it will not be hosted on the same platform. 
  • Easy for Coach to jump in and review / edit a particular plan as needed (no more "What Plan are You On?" stuff. 

What Am I Interested In
  • Your feedback on the Web and Mobile platforms. 
  • Your experience doing basic EN functions on the platform.
  • Your thoughts on how this will affect existing members.
  • Plus/Minus for New Members.
  • Anything else! 


Yes, there are still some TBD items such as adding EN Zones, and the ability for Members to Move/Change their own plans, etc...but I am really interest to hear from you directly.

Many, many thanks!

~ Coach P 
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Comments

  • Coach PatrickCoach Patrick
    Update...as you confirm, I will be "adding" the December OutSeason®  plan to your account so you can click around, do stuff, etc. Thanks again!

    Also, don't forget you can login on their mobile app as well: 

  • Al TruscottAl Truscott
    the easiest way I fond to add previous workouts was via TrainingPeaks. Surge doesnt allow bulk .fit file uploads, and direct transfer from Garmin Connect was only past 30 days, and takes 24-48 hrs. TP is via a .csv file, instructions are in Surge. I'll add comments after Ive played with it a bit. 
  • Paul HoughPaul Hough
    I think this is a great initiative for the more connected triathletes; but I have no interest whatsoever in it, although I will adapt if it becomes the only option to get my workouts.  I have my handwritten training logs back to 1980 and my big change came in 2009 when I developed an excel sheet that works for me with a new tab for each year.  It allows me to quickly explore my own training progress.  Meanwhile, I do not participate in Strava, Instagram, SnapChat, Twitter, Trainer Road, or Zwift.  I have a Garmin Connect account, but don't remember the last year I checked on that.  Jeez, do I sound like an old fogie or what?!   
  • Al TruscottAl Truscott
    Initial thoughts, based on my EN training plan having been loaded in, and all my workouts from TrainingPeaks since Feb 2017 loaded in:
    • Biggest plus is having a monthly view of my training plan going forward, AND the ability to EASILY move a workout from one day to another - just point, click/hold, and move. And easy editing to any individual workout. Since I routinely hack away at the EN plan, while still using it as my root structure, I find this an improvement on my current for doing this
    • I suspect that you, Coach P, may be hoping this will give you access to all of our workouts past and future, without having to go to multiple sites, or use individual passwords for each athlete - if this relieves stress and is a time saver for you, then that helps all of us.
    • I have not yet been able to figure out how to do any analytics on workouts, either individual or collectively over time. Maybe those TP workouts I loaded in did not have enough data within them (they seem to be only summaries, like how far, how long, avg power, etc, but no intervals, or graph over time, etc.).
    • Like most seasoned athletes, I suspect, I already have my own systems for recording and analyzing past performance, and unless this is way snazzier than it appears to be, I doubt it will replace the suite of programs I already use: WKO+, PowerAgent, Strava Premium, Garmin Connect, Stryd PowerCenter, and The Athlete's Diary. But since it auto uploads from Garmin and Strava, and my own data auto uploads to those sites, this will add no new work to my life. And it may, if I can figure out how to access it, provide new ways to analyze workout data.
    • For a new athlete, this may be a plus, as it combines a friction free way to load future workouts, and a very easy way to load data from workouts (via Garmin, or Strava.)
  • Jeremy BehlerJeremy Behler
    I just signed up to have my WKOs synced.  As @Al Truscott mentioned I don't imagine this will replace the existing tools I use to analyze my results (TP, Strava Premium, and Garmin Connect).  I do like the idea of an email/text reminder as it's often more convenient than pulling up the EN site.   I like the idea to be able to hack individual plans and more importantly drag and drop WKOs across days to account for scheduling issues.   

    Would like to understand what your vision of this platform is so I can advise on how it may or may not be supporting said vision.   If we could get these to push to devices (think Zwift WKOs for Bike/Run) that would be interesting.
  • Nemo BrauchNemo Brauch
    Coach P.  I received your email notice and came here to check things out, but I never got the "invitation" to accept.  So, um, I accept?
  • John WithrowJohn Withrow
    Here are my "Initial Impressions"...   Totally understand the concept and get the "why" this makes sense for the team (and for you).  Kind of seems like the "poor man's TrainingPeaks" to me.  I don't have a problem with that, but that's just my first impression.

    General Question first.  Is First Surge a small start-up mentality platform that is willing to take feedback to improve their overall platform which will ultimately improve our experience?  Or are they a big platform that you "get what you get"?

    Either way, here are my specific first impression quirks/possible improvements.

    • I tried to Import my 30 days of past data from Garmin and it did not come in...
    • Would be nice if they could integrate with a website like Tapiriik (which seems to link with every workout platform under the sun) to do a 1x dump to import "ALL" of our past workouts as a really good starting point.  this should be easy with a clean slate of new members and maybe more complicated as you get realtime workouts populated in there over time.
    • I setup the sync's with Garmin and Strava and my workouts came in duplicates for the new workouts, so tell people to only sync with a single platform.  I'm choosing Strava for this because all of my Garmin workouts push there anyways.
    • I tried to upload a "single workout" and it took me 3 tries for it to work: 1) it would not take the Zwift file I tried to download from Strava which was a .gpx file.  It would not take the same file as a download from Trainingpeaks which was a .fit.gz file.  It finally worked as a download from Garmin which was a .tcx file.
    • Like Al, I use the EN workout as a "Base", then move things around and supplement them to fit my needs/schedule (I currently do this in spreadsheet).  To that end, it was easy to drag/drop a workout to change the day it was on, but when I tried to change a 60 min swim to a 30 min swim it would not actually let me "edit" the scheduled workout because I am not a "coach".  Would be nice if I could move AND modify a workout.
    • Dumb one BUT here, but...  on the calendar view, as I scroll up or down it would be nice if the days of the week would stay visible on the top of the page instead of rolling off.
    • I couldn't see any of the TP style "Analytics" on any of the workouts.  I get that TP owns the intellectual property for NP and TSS/TSB/etc...   But I also know Strava has come up with their own "similar" metrics, and Garmin has also licensed these from TP for their use.  Even summaries of these most basic metrics would make this Platform much more valuable to the type of nerds that are in EN.  It looks like some simple summaries can be found on the Dashboard page for miles or time by sport (but a custom date range for this would also be nice).  Summaries by line for each sport type at the bottom when all sports are selected would also be nice.
    • The Calculators are pretty basic.  The current EN platform has pretty nice layout for the different Power and Pace Zones.  Can those either be integrated into the single workout views or at a minimum put somewhere on the calendar so they're easy to see in this platform?


  • tim cronktim cronk
    X2 with Nemo...
  • Coach PatrickCoach Patrick
    Great feedback all...first let me answer your questions...then we go from there...

    @Al Truscott  -  you can view workout analytics for completed / imported workouts...the system matches my bike with the scheduled bike, and then I can click on the right to view date or dive deeper. Video here: https://goo.gl/jrWmth I have a question in about "macro" analytics re all workouts and workout trends. 


    @Jeremy Behler what did you mean by this statement: "If we could get these to push to devices (think Zwift WKOs for Bike/Run) that would be interesting." Do you mean an "optional" Zwift alternative workout would show up here? Or Zwift results into log?


    @John Withrow - FinalSurge is a young platform, very much interested in making it worthwhile for new users, especially one the size of EN. I have passed on your questions to Tim at Final Surge to see what he says. 


    Updates:

     @Nemo Brauch I sent you an invite; @tim cronk you accepted the invite over the weekend...you should already be in (system says you are)...here's the address where the email comes from: notifications@finalsurge.com if you need to check again. 

    Why Use Final Surge?

    Athletes:

    • Interactive workout plans.

    • Calendar scheduling and workout alerts.

    • Mobile friendly.

    • No friction way to pull in data and enable Coach / Staff to ensure compliance and integration with the “EN Way.”


    Coaching:

    • Ability for athletes to 100% manage their season and plans.

    • Ability to see all workouts of any user as needed.

    • Ability to modify (if required) individual workouts or weeks.

    • Ability to capture successful blocks and convert them to new plans (can take “Al T’s” modified OS and then use that as a template, for example)..or Paul Curtin’s IM Build, etc.


    Business:

    • Value add for EN membership, fighting the pricing “race to the bottom”

    • Massive cost / time savings vs trying to roll our own system

    • Great benefit for NEW athletes...veterans likely not so much (unless personal coach input is requested).

    • Ability to scale EN beyond a “coach only” relationship. Right now everyone gets the same level of service which is not only unsustainable, it’s not smart. At some point I will have to solve for coaching expertise, but I think this log will allow us to do something more important -- roll out different tiers of membership.

      • Such as a “Plan” subscription tier with no forums or coaching to capture price-sensitive customers.

      • Or a “Team” tier where folks can get Plans, Forum & Wiki access to DIY their season.  

    • Members of EN could then navigate around based off of what they “need” from EN (folks might not need coaching after their A race).
  • Jeremy BehlerJeremy Behler
    @Coach Patrick what I meant is that the WKOs show up as actual workouts in Zwift.   I often prefer the old school prescribed workouts like we have in Trainerroad and would like to be able to choose them in Zwift (vs. just riding in Zwift with a group or race).   I loaded some of them that @Francis Picard developed for the OS, and would be great to have all plans available.
  • Jenn EdwardsJenn Edwards
    My thoughts - hope you're not sorry you asked! 
    1 - TOTALLY get that EN needs something like this.  When I joined EN I actually "unjoined" for a month because the thought of copying/pasting all my workout into TP seemed ridiculous.  Now it's just part of my admin.
    2 - From an Athlete/Consumer perspective this doesn't provide me anything more than TrainingPeaks and actually provides a lot less.  What would be the benefit to the athlete (taking the EN is a business hat off) over TrainingPeaks?
    3 - FWIW, I've had an account on their site for some time for another (running only) plan I continue to use at times as a hack.  How do I use it ?  I copy/paste into TP.   ;) 
    Party Pooper - Out
  • Coach PatrickCoach Patrick
    @JeremyBehlerYou mean I could "associate" a file with a specific workout...that you could say download from that workout interface and put it right into Zwift (vs right now having to search elsewhere). Right? 

    @Jenn Edwards Never sorry!!!! That's a great piece of feedback from a TP.com user. Since < 30% of our folks on are TP.com now, and new athletes are a toss up, I think it's a value add from an "already ready to go" solution where folks can either use or, as in your case, copy and paste. 

    Additional info from the Team there before my Friday call with them...  @Al Truscott  @John Withrow  @Mike Roberts @Nemo Brauch  @Paul Hough  @Dave Tallo

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Can we get “EN Zones” as listed calculators that our athletes can select and use? We are just looking for Bike Power, Run and Bike Heart Rate. - Yes, as long as you give me the method to do the calculations, we can build this. 

    Can Zones be displayed next to the workout?  This is TBD right now, but we have an option of putting zones from your saved calculator right into the workout itself. 

    Are workout analytics available for “imported” or historical workouts?  Yes.  You can go back and see analytics for all historical workouts.

    Are there “macro” analytics available? Such as monthly run volume, etc. Trying to see how I could tell folks to “Get” that as a part of Final Surge. Yes.  The charts on the dashboard show this and they can also run the Workout Report on any date range to see macro data. 

    I get that TP owns the intellectual property for NP and TSS/TSB/etc...   But I also know Strava has come up with their own "similar" metrics, and Garmin has also licensed these from TP for their use.  Even summaries of these most basic metrics would make this Platform much more valuable to the type of nerds that are in EN.  It looks like some simple summaries can be found on the Dashboard page for miles or time by sport (but a custom date range for this would also be nice).  Summaries by line for each sport type at the bottom when all sports are selected would also be nice.  We have very similar metrics to Strava.  We show Weighted Power which is the same formula Strava uses for Weighted Average Power.  We also have Intensity, Variability, 30 second Mean/Max average, and have the data to show a power curve (we have not lit up the power curve in our system yet).  The custom range of summaries can be done on our Workout Report page: https://log.finalsurge.com/WorkoutReport.cshtml  If we need to add some power data to this report that is not a problem

    Would be nice if they could integrate with a website like Tapiriik (which seems to link with every workout platform under the sun) to do a 1x dump to import "ALL" of our past workouts as a really good starting point.  I can reach out to Tapiriik but we were also planning on lighting up a historical Strava import which should work for the majority of the users.  If we need to launch this before your club launches we can make that happen.

    Is there one right way to do this? Here’s what my athlete said “tried to upload a "single workout" and it took me 3 tries for it to work: 1) it would not take the Zwift file I tried to download from Strava which was a .gpx file.  It would not take the same file as a download from Trainingpeaks which was a .fit.gz file.  It finally worked as a download from Garmin which was a .tcx file.”  Right now we accept FIT and TCX files (GPX is done on our development server but we haven’t launched it yet as it’s the least detailed type of file).  The TP file has to be un-zipped so it’s just a FIT file (the .fit.gz is a compressed zip file).


    Would be nice if I could move AND modify a workout. “it was easy to drag/drop a workout to change the day it was on, but when I tried to change a 60 min swim to a 30 min swim it would not actually let me "edit" the scheduled workout because I am not a "coach".”  This will be possible as athletes will control their own calendars.


    on the calendar view, as I scroll up or down it would be nice if the days of the week would stay visible on the top of the page instead of rolling off.  Our next big upgrade to the web platform is an infinite scrolling calendar.  This will solve that issue as well as several more.  This should happen in the first part of next year.

  • Al TruscottAl Truscott
    Coach - My updated comments, knowing you have a follow-up on Friday, expressed in Q/A form:
    • Would I adopt this program? Meaning add it to my stable of analytics...Yes. That's a no-brainer for several primary reasons: it's free; entering workout data is friction free (in other words, automatic from my Fenix >> Garmin Connect >> FS), it seems to offer a very good run power analytic mode, and my Coach may be using it when I want to communicate with him about my recent and upcoming training.
    • Will I abandon any of my current analytics? Doubtful. WKO+ is so granular and user configurable, for specialized uses and for multi-year PMC analytics; PowerAgent has been my go-to for day-to-day cycling analytics for 8 years now, something would have be both easier and more complete to replace it; and for high level summary analyses, it's hard to beat a small little app called The Athlete's Diary that I've been filling with my daily workouts for over ten years now. Garmin Connect, Strava, Stryd PowerCenter, and TrainingPeaks online  are overall inferior to what FinalSurge seems to offer, but I will continue to use them for (a) collecting data and shooting it out to other sites (Garmin, TP) and (b) social media orientation (Strava, Zwift). For workout analyses, FS is better than them, but not good enough to be my one-stop shop.
    • What's the biggest drawback from my perspective? As someone with a decade or more of data in other locales, I would like to be able to dump all of my past workouts from, say, Garmin Connect into this app, just as I did with Strava when it came out, and was able to do between TP and GC.
    • What about a newbie? For someone just entering the workout analytic game, I see no reason not to recommend this as a first choice over other free online options: GC, TP, Strava. The double negative means it's not a perfect system, but better than others.
    • What about the calendar link-up with EN? With only a few days' experience with this, I am not yet ready to say it will be my go-to method for planning my future workout schedule. Currently I use a combo of the EN web site and a white board for my hacks. While FS seems to be superior to the online EN week-by-week system, there are several drawbacks: what about when I want to change my plan mid stream, like changing the end date (which I do several times each OS as I take time off for skiing)? how fast can I modify the specifics of a future workout, compared to just writing in code on my white board? (That's something I'll be testing over the next month, but I suspect a dry-erase white board works best.)
    • Is there a risk to EN? Sounds like a big reason to develop a relationship is to become more attractive to new members. If FS doesn't take off or changes course over time, and you have all your eggs in this basket, you'll need a recovery plan.
    • Number one recommendation? Create a robust social media component. The success of Strava and Zwift (to say nothing of Facebook/Instagram, etc) should make this obvious. And given the value of community in EN's enduring and growing success, I'd think that would be imperative for you. We love to talk to each other about our workouts; creating an environment for that would greatly enhance the stickiness of the site to ENers.
  • Jeremy BehlerJeremy Behler
    @Coach Patrick I was referring to full integration.  Idiot proof...like the old Trainer Road setup...I sign in, search for my plan (eg. Week 4 OS Advanced Tuesday Bike), click it, and do the workout.   I didn't have to download anything, update anything, etc.    There may be technical limitations to that now...but it would be huge to me....I like races, but for targeted VO2, and sometimes FTP work I prefer a structured workout, especially since my training windows are not super flexible so if there isn't a race I have to improvise.

    Also...I noticed that the plan on the EN dashboard is not the same as what is showing up in FS.   Yesterday, for example, my run on the dashboard showed Level 3 at 75' however on FS is only 60' for Level 3.
  • Coach PatrickCoach Patrick
    Thank you all for your feedback here...great call with them today...more to come.
  • Coach PatrickCoach Patrick
    @Al Truscott @JeremyBehler @Tim Sullivan @Jenn Edwards @tim cronk @John Withrow @Paul Hough

    Just A heads up that Endurance Nation Heart Rate and Power Zones are available now in Final Surge...

    https://goo.gl/Jw8n8E
  • Al TruscottAl Truscott
    @Coach PatrickAny update on this? I'm finding I am using FS routinely (but not exclusively) to help analyze all my work. The only thing it lacks - or that I haven't yet discovered how to implement - is tracking changes in metrics over time, rather than just looking at individual workouts.
  • Al TruscottAl Truscott
    I'd already set up my zones. Now I rolled in my current plan (~Jan OS). Which I'm not really following very well as I am in Run Purgatory and riding daily, as well as swimming 3x/week.

    My continued assessment: this is good for scoping out upcoming workouts, moving them around, and reviewing completed individual workouts. As well as facilitating Coach/Athlete communication. But if aggregate data reports (like TP's Performance Management Chart) exists in Final Surge, I have not found it yet. Of if it's not there, that's a big hole that needs filling for it to be a robust stand-alone training log.
  • Coach PatrickCoach Patrick
    @Al Truscott Thanks much!!!

    I agree that the basics are great. Don't discount being able to "capture" work and then use that moving forward as a plan as well...although that might be a coach vs athlete function. At the very least you can use the weeks moving forward.

    I think the phases on FS side will be basic charts (miles run, etc) before bigger charts. But honestly, 95% of my coaching work is looking at workout completion / overall plan compliance  and individual sessions (that race or that rehearsal or that run). 

    I love that the EN zones (or other zones) are in there, you can dial in Imperial / Metric, have the auto upload, and I can check/manipulate anyone's plan at any time. The amount of time I spend managing Strava and TrainingPeaks and all of our folks is crazy. 

    More to come soon...anyone else?


    Calendar View...



    Advanced View of Workout Data, with Zoom...
  • John WithrowJohn Withrow
    I like the simplicity of having the auto-email I get from them with the next day (or 2 days) workout.  I'm on my email pretty much all the time and it's a nice little reminder without having to actually fire up an app.
  • Jeremy BehlerJeremy Behler
    I like the email reminder along with the calendar visualization when on my desktop or ipad.    Having the exact zones for me isn't a big deal as I already have them ingrained in my head so just knowing Z3 vs. Z4 is sufficient.   Like most others I've become accustomed to the TP dashboard and the CTL/ATL/TSB metrics as a gauge.   FS may have the ability to do this, or at least supplement but it will require some reprogramming in my mind.    At the end of the day I want to make things as efficient and integrated as possible so not having to go to the EN Dashboard, TP, Strava, etc would be a benefit if FS can accomplish all of the training aspects.   

    For some reason my plan isn't showing up in FS since I changed plans about a week or two ago.   
  • Coach PatrickCoach Patrick
    via Email
    Jeremy -

    Thanks for the feedback on the integrations. I agree; 90% of what's coming
    is great for folks with <1 year of EN membership (or ability to remember
    numbers).

    The way things are working now, I like the following set up...which only
    involves a "Deep Dive" into EN when I Want to learn something indepth...

    - Final Surge emailed workout to me.
    - EN Forums email updates (so I can reply) to what's front of mind.
    - Autosynced data for when I needed (your choice of platform)
    - Resources / meetings / content on EN when I want to deep dive.
    - GroupMe for instant chatting.

    ~ Patrick

    PS to see your plan in Final Surge you'll need to load it via the Final
    Surge interface...
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