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EN strategies for use of Zwift

I wasn't fully satisfied with the recent coach chat about all things Zwift.  I thought it was going to be more specific on strategies for how to incorporate the difference aspects of Zwift into our training plans.  Obviously we can do the workouts as written in the OS or other plans on Zwift.  The Saturday and or Sunday EN group rides are perfect ABP rides with some bursts of effort for KOMs and sprints.  With the group dynamic to keep the effort up and make it fun, the time really flies by.  My goal for this year is to really focus on my biking and my question comes as to how to raise the roof (short - think 1 minute power) as well as the Ceiling (FTP).  Racing everyday, or many times per day (aka "Sullivaning") may be fun for some but it's not for everyone and may have unintended effects on consistency of future workouts.  For me the 45-60 minute races are excellent FTP work and really push me beyond what I would normally do for a 2 x 20'.  I don't have the upper end to get in a good pack and survive the hills or surges so I need to do something else for the VO2 max or higher.  I like @Paul Curtin Crusher workout - 1 minute at 150+% with 3-4 minute recovery x 8.  I also think some of the very hilly rides are good as well.  I'm thinking maybe a one loop course (10k) may also be good. 
I guess my point is that workouts should have purpose and it's good to know what we are trying to accomplish with those efforts.  Having fun,  just thrashing yourself, or love of competition are all good reasons to workout as well. 
We have many different goals on this team and that's the great thing about us. Some of us are more experienced (for better and worse {need more recovery})and others are newbies.   So I thought this would be a good place to share our strategies (particular races, workouts, or courses) that we use on Zwift for better achieving our goals.
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  • @Robert Sabo
    I am in a minority here at EN, but I thought I would give you my answer anyway.

    The naive way to systematically train your maximum power at any time duration (longer than about 20-30 secs, and less than about 4 minutes) is to do intervals @ 90% of your max for that duration, with a work:rest ratio of 1:1.2. So in the case of 1 minute power, you do intervals @90% of your max, with a rest of 72 seconds. You should do 4 - 8 intervals per session, with total weekly work in the range 4 to 12 minutes. Over time, you work your way towards 95% of your max power. Then test your 1 minute power after about 5 weeks.

    Actually, I believe that it is more complicated than that. But that said, the naive approach would definitely work. IMO, to get the very best out of your 1 minute power, you should systematically train the different energy systems responsible for 5 seconds max power, 20 seconds max power, and 40 seconds max power. This is the WKO4 approach, I believe.

    Just my $0.02.
  • Rob - here's a thought specific to raising the roof, using Zwift. I find that the Sprint banners really motivate me, and I can ride @ 1.2-1.5 IF for the 30 seconds or so which are timed by the game. Consider this: just cruise around the 10 K Watopia flat loop, which has a Sprint in it. Hammer the Sprint. You could turn around there back to the start of the timed zone, and do it in the same direction again (that would give you pretty close to the 1:1.2 ratio of work to recovery Peter mentions), to you could keep going, then turn around at the Sprint start in the other direction. Do that 2-4 times, put in some steady state work, and do 2-4 times again on the second lap. Total time would be in the range of 45' +/-. There are always people sprinting towards that banner, enough to get the juices flowing.

    Another good thing, is the timing of your sprint is automatic, and you are shown a list of your most recent and al time best times in the left hand column of data after you finish a sprint. And, during the sprint, you have a clock in the HUD at the top showing your estimated finish time, providing further motivation to beast your time from the last one. And, as you approach the sprint, there are signs at the side indicating 300...150...meters to go to the finish, and you can see the banner in the last five seconds providing further motivation.

    Just a thought about how to use the "fun" and data-rich features of Zwift as a do-it-yourself VO2 workout in a short period of time. Without the drudgery of loading a standard workout, or riding around with a curved translucent screen in front of your avatar.
  • Great topic Rob!  Zwift is great for most workouts, but not so good for others.  My ratings so far:
    • Recovery rides: Excellent.  Did an easy spin yesterday on Zwift and it was fun.  Found myself looking at the scenery, pacing with other riders, and even did my first u-turn.  40 minutes went by in a hurry; much better than the usual trainer rides
    • ABP Rides: Very good.  The group dynamic is great, but the pacing has to be spot-on for what you need from that workout.  During the IMLOU build I stopped Zwifting because it was too easy to get caught up in the group ride instead of what I needed for a given day.  For OutSeason rides though it's excellent
    • EN Custom Workout: Poor.  Did the custom Tuesday OS WKO and didn't like it.  The ERG mode was out of sync with the terrain (it was effortless going up hills during a recovery interval).  Maybe there's a setting that can fix this
    • 30/30 WKO: TBD (will try this today)
    • Races: Very good.  These don't match perfectly to the EN plans but it's easy enough to adapt.  I like your idea of 45-60' of racing as a substitute for FTP work.  I need to race more frequently -- 4 out of 5 roadies say racing makes you faster
  • An update to the ratings:
    • 30/30 WKO: Excellent.  Rode yesterday on a regular Zwift course; did the normal warm-up of high RPM and power-ups; then pushed through 7 x 30" at Crush intensity with easy spinning to recover.  Picking a flat course probably helped
  • I tried Zwift briefly 2 years ago... Looks like I am do to try it again soon...But here are some thoughts I have which are general to training...
    1.Could help a lot in the motivation department. (good)
    2.Its not how much you can do its how much you can absorb. (could be bad for those overachievers or competitors who cant control themselves)
    3. Most people dont train the hard (hard enough) and train the easy (easy enough) and end up with too much time in between.
    4. Need to make sure you are accomplishing what you need/want to accomplish on each ride

    @Paul Curtin nice write up and review of many different types of rides great example of purposeful training.

  • I really like the flexibility/ease of use/motivation from Zwift.

    When I go into a Zwift ride there two things I go into  each ride with:

    1) Purpose - meaning I have an idea of how much overall time I want to spend in Z3 or Z4 or V02 work, or it may be a Z2 and below (2.5 w/g and below) recovery ride.

    2)Overall load/TSS I am looking for in this workout.  

    I am not focused so much on number of miles/total time as much as I am on the first two.

    With that in mind, I then decide if there is a race available at the time I can ride for FTP work, a 1 lap race for V02 work, a Zwift workout more for recovery work, or if I just need to go at it alone.

    I can say that those races have definitely helped me to push harder than I might otherwise push for the FTP work and have resulted in a current all time high FTP equating to 4.0 w/kg for me.

    Now, is that an FTP I can base a 5 hour power number  off of?  Prob not, but either way, I am stronger than before at age 50 and it gives me a strong base from which to work going into the longer rides as they come up.............and all this while run durability (day 51) has been in progress......

    SS
  • Not in Zwift yet but if @Shaughn Simmons has pushed up his FTP using it, that's legit given he was going 2X20+ (22'-24' if I recall correctly) last year in the OS to garner a small increase in his cycling power.  Let's just say he was pushing some long FTP intervals. 

    BTW nice work on the 4.0 w/kg.
  • @Gordon Cherwoniak - no tricks or gimmicks, just good ole fashioned, @tim cronk  style, roll up your sleeves and grind it out work......using a 12 year old TT Light Speed Saber and G3 PT in the hub.......be ready to get comfortable with getting your a$$ handed to you 2 to 3 times a week while racing......

  • @tim cronk Totally agree with your point 3 above.
    Am attending to that this season!
  • Great thread. I started with Zwift because I didn't know anything else and I find it a great motivator.  When I started Zwift last year I would die 10 minutes into a race so to fix that I just kept pushing. Eventually I  could ride hard for the 40-60 minutes of the race and I started to move up categories.  

    As I am new to endurance sports my weakness is holding my power for hours at a time while also not letting my mind get in the way. I am a fast twitch trying to convert to slow twitch.  As I got more fit I tried racing twice in a day to help build my fitness. Now a little more than a year later I can strimg 2-3 of these races and stay with the pack unless the race has a long climb. I'm not worried about getting my power up for my FTP as I would like to have my 4-5 hour power come up to my current FTP.  That will take a while. 

    Zwift has been a great tool to see how I have improved on the same race course over time.  From last year to now there is a huge improvement in my HR as well as power over time. 

    Like many of you have said.  You must give yourself time to recover. I always listen to my body and take breaks when needed which is more often than younger riders. No crazy ramp rates here. 

    Zwift is just a tool that I find extremely helpful to utilize.  I can train crazy hard when needed and also train early in the morning while also getting some social interaction while still pushing.  As I figure I have at least another year of base building I plan to keep going on the current track unless I don't see improvement. 

    The best part of Zwift is that next year I will probably ride about 8-10 thousand miles or more and enjoy most if not all of the training
  • edited December 28, 2017 1:26AM

     :) 

  • edited December 28, 2017 2:34AM
    Did the Dec OS last year and used Zwift for 100% of the bikes.  Did all the workouts as written and didn't mix it up at all.  This worked great and I enjoy the structured aspect of the training.  Today I have to do A, tomorrow B, and Saturday C.  Simple, straight forward, and easily planned into every day life.

    I am doing the Dec OS again this year, but I am changing it up a bit.  I have a specific window in which I can do my Tuesday and Thursday rides.  I'm leaving the Thursday VO2 work as is.  But on Tuesday, if there is an appropriate length race available, I will substitute it for Tuesdays bike workout.  The weekend, I ride Saturday or Sunday depending on everyday life schedule.  So I will either do the 2 - 3 hour ride as written, or if a 17 to 26 or so mile race is available in my workout window, I will do the first 90 minutes of the bike workout, then substitute the race for the 60' in Z3 steady riding.  Thats a brutal race after the hard work of the first 90 minutes.  Seems to be paying off.  FTP up 20+ watts in the first 5 weeks of the OS.  Very happy with that, especially considering I had to miss a handful of bike workouts due to a defective Kickr Snap that had to be returned and a new one shipped.
  • Great comments above.
    • For the Outseason my plan is to use a Zwift race to take the place of the 3 X 20' FTP sets. Its just easier staying motivated to push yourself for a full 60 minutes when your racing. Per Tim Sullivan's comment above it will be interesting to track improvements over time.
    • I have not tried a 30/30 workout in Zwift yet. I'm thinking that Trainer Road might have the edge for this type of work. Al's sprint repeats are an interesting idea. Guessing you could do hill repeats in the same manner.
    • Saturday/Sunday group ABP rides are excellent if you haven't joined one yet, you should.
  • Rob, are you using WKO4?  I had a lot of success this summer addressing what you are looking to do using Optimized Intervals from WKO4.  I did them outside on the road, but have also been doing them on Zwift by using the custom workout creator and creating my own.  I have an old dumb trainer, will upgrade to Kickr in the next 2 weeks, but I've been told that short intervals in ERG mode leave something to be desired.  The dumb trainer works fine, up to about 800 watts.
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