Slowtwitch Article on Positive Test for 63 YO; Angry Comments

Paul Curtin

http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/Kevin_Moats_positive_again_8yr_ban_announces_retirement_6712.html

Interesting that this guy took his own story to Slowtwitch.  Maybe to lessen the impact if it came out from another source?  (Not even sure whether Ironman or USADA announces positive test results)

The comments on the article are interesting.  There's a lot of anger.  Rightly so

Paul Curtin

Here's a comment worth discussion:

I think it's critical to announce and publicize these things. Although Slowtwitch picked too "favorable" of a photo in my opinion ... maybe it's all they had on him ... but it comes across as too friendly

Broadcasting this is essential to help get the cheaters out in the open.  If someone has a breakthrough year at age 55, people will look at the margin of improvement and unfortunately assume it's attributed to doping rather than very hard work

Paul Hough

As a 60 year old (61 later this year), I will attest that you must come to grips with declining performance as you age.  The worst part is needing even more recovery time from performances that fall far short of what you did just 10 years ago, or even 5 years.  But doping is just completely unethical.  Interesting that I saw a commercial for HGH on TV just this morning.  It's all out there and widely available today, and it's not illegal.  But you can't take it and race ethically.  I can only wish the worst karma on cheats like Moats (who besides doping was well known as a shameless drafter).

Al Truscott

While the ethics of competing in WADA-sanctioned events as an age grouper while taking Testosterone, HGH, etc for "low-T" with  or without a TUE are one thing to ponder, I also worry about  my peers who believe there is no potential downside to playing with their body's chemistry. We are always changing over time, we are not static organisms. Its obvious that as Paul H notes, what we can handle when we are, say 25 is different than when we are, say 15 or 65 in terms of exercise frequency and intensity. A 65 year/old body is not designed to handle the anabolic boost from higher levels of testosterone, and potentially, bad things could happen. I always note as a women's physician for 40 years, that we (the MDs) used to think that women over 50 would only benefit from having their lowered estrogen replaced. We have subsequently learned that doing so increases the risks of breast cancer, stroke, and heart disease, while providing benefit to bones and reducing hot flashes and some other cancer.

I'll also add another comment I usually make: I think WTC should offer two tier pricing: For $100 more, to cover increased testing, you can sign up for a race as an "elite age-grouper" who will then be eligible for podium placement and/or Kona qualification. Don't pay the extra $, and you don't get a chance to win or place or KQ. But you can also dope to your heart's content without a TUE. Then, everyone in the testing pool is at risk of a pro-style testing regime both in and out of competition. Won't catch everyone, but it may put a damper on things.

I agree with Paul, learning how to mentally deal with the inevitable slowing down is the hardest part of what I do in triathlon. Paul is a life-long runner, and deals with knowing he was a mid-teens 5k runner; I'm a life-long swimmer, and that is where it hurts the most. Some days it feels like I am getting preceptively slower with every workout. 

Sheila Leard

The spot light is always on Men. But I wonder about the women in my AG 60-64. How is that they continue the same IM pace as the 55-59? The KONA Champ is not slowed down. I saw my running times and RPE change at 57. That was the beginning. If I think about this stuff too much I get a bad feeling about our sport. The women are no angels!! How much DHEA and T are they taking?

Satish Punna

It seems there is a fair amount of cheating going on amongst age-groupers, and it is discouraging.  I feel sorry for those people who must cheat to derive satisfaction from participating in a hobby.  

tim cronk

In general, I have lost my faith in humans, that is why I like dogs.... All you have to do is turn on the TV, scroll FB , or engage ST forums... Try to have a discussion about politics, religion, or diet...We are doomed, doomed I tell ya :-)

Been following the current Moats thread and followed the one in 2012 as well. Had no idea he was in KONA... I guess once a cheat always a cheat.. Its his remorseless attitude that is amazing... Just doesnt have the ability to see it as wrong (doping or drafting)...

History has shown people been cheating anyway they can for anything and everything ... Nothing will change ... 

STRAVA Doping- People even cheat for KOM's??? WTF do they matter?

ZWIFT the next frontier - Lets cheat on a virtual platform...I'm sure people are cheating in ZWIFT, probably lie about age, weight, etc ... I bet there are even dopers that compete on ZWIFT and feel good about themselves...

EDIT:  I left out the best part....IMO EN people and forums have been exempt from all of my above beliefs as far as I know...Its truly amazing that in todays day and age we are so civil, supportive, and helpful to eachother here on EN :-)

Paul Hough

@tim cronk  - I do not Zwift, but yes there is cheating on there which is why they have "ZADA".  https://zwiftinsider.com/zada/

 

tim cronk

@Paul Hough  that is just too funny... I guess I should have known!

Paul Curtin

tim cronk said:

EDIT:  I left out the best part....IMO EN people and forums have been exempt from all of my above beliefs as far as I know...Its truly amazing that in todays day and age we are so civil, supportive, and helpful to eachother here on EN :-)

Could not agree with you more!

John Katsoudas

I agree 100% with the anger against cheaters in our sport.  However, as a 48 year old coming back to the sport after an extended absence due to multiple injuries, I can totally appreciate that I already don't recover as quickly as I did, say, 15 years ago, and that this will be more pronounced as I get older.  That's a fact of life.  But, this comment in the Slowtwitch thread was pretty candid:

"I was thinking about this the other day as I have been struggling with getting older and taking longer to recover (especially being out of training for a while). All I want is to be able to run, whenever I want for as long as I want. It crossed my mind to never race again and look into supplementing if it would help me recover and continue to run as long as I want. I can completely see why older guys would choose to supplement. I can certainly understand and empathize a lot more than I could when I was younger."

I believe that, while there is some segment of the population that cheats because they are morally unhindered by the notion of fair play and will do whatever they can to win, there is also some portion of the population (especially in the older age groups) that are just conflicted around the choice of competing fairly vs. enjoying an improved quality of life.

I'm squarely a MOP'er.  I've never raced triathlon with the mindset that I'm competing against others in my AG - I am largely (entirely) competing against myself, my prior performances, and my own expectations of myself.  I derive joy from the journey, the training, the lifestyle, and the satisfaction of finishing (perhaps a few minutes faster than I did last time) and most importantly I want to balance triathlon with an overall quality of life.  So, hypothetically speaking, what would be the harm in having an "open" group, where you could race, get your photos, finisher medals, hugs from the family, and good feelings, but there would be no published times or standings for your group.  You'd get an e-mail with your splits and overall time, but no idea what place you came in your AG or overall, no qualification for world championships, nothing to 'feed' the compulsion to cheat as a means to best others.  Would that be so bad with that?

Al Truscott

John Katsoudas said:

...having an "open" group, where you could race, get your photos, finisher medals, hugs from the family, and good feelings, but there would be no published times or standings for your group.  You'd get an e-mail with your splits and overall time, but no idea what place you came in your AG or overall, no qualification for world championships, nothing to 'feed' the compulsion to cheat as a means to best others.  Would that be so bad with that?

There are many triathletes in all distances who are "completers" (participants), not "competers" (racers). Gran Fondos in cycling, where everyone starts at the same time, but  no one wins, and "fun runs", where the emphasis is purely on being out amongst others, while all starting together and getting timed, are in the same vein. These are great events, as they widen the spectrum of those who exercise with purpose, a key element of health and well-being. But even if Ironman were to add that to its repertoire, I think we'd still need a more robust anti-doping regime than we have now.

To repeat myself, we tinker with the changes over time of our body's inner workings at our peril. Having spent all of my professional life not only as a doctor, but as a manager of other doctors, I know too well the hubris our profession has. We are not nearly as smart as we seem, or think we are...

Dye your grey hairs, wear corrective lenses for loss of near vision, etc. That's all external, carries no risk. But think three times before adding more anabolic steroids into your system than your body is designed to handle at any given age.

John Katsoudas

@Al Truscott for the record, I agree 100% with everything you've said.  I usually even avoid taking things like Motrin and vitamin supplements.  With regard to T supplementation and the like, the rules are the rules, and they should be enforced vigorously to keep the playing field level.  My previous comment was more of a philosophical musing around the motive behind doping.  Those that dope for the purpose of cheating in sport and 'winning' should be weeded out of the sport.  Those that dope for perhaps the more benign motive of preserving quality of life could be given a 'legal' avenue to pursue their continued participation in triathlon vs. being driven out of the sport and into other things.  With triathlon on the decline over the last several years, this could be a way to keep folks in the sport that may otherwise have to make the choice between competing illegally or leaving triathlon.

Mark Hickman

@Al Truscott  Don't agree with the option to pay more to compete in an elite field, which is the only field eligible for awards, etc.  I think it gives an implicit okay for others to dope and race in the rest of the field.  While I am not yet competitive for AG awards or Kona slots, I AM COMPETING.  Trying to reach a top 15%, top 10%, or otherwise is a motivator for me while training and racing.  I'm sure there will continue to be a few (or a lot more) ahead of me "doping," perhaps I have too much faith in general humanity, but I'd like to think the majority are racing fairly within the rules.

While the option of providing a "doped category" has been thrown around slow twitch, I'm doubtful this would deter folks from continuing to dope and compete for awards.  It may provide an option for those who use unauthorized substances for health reason, whether medically good or bad for you, to race without worry of being shamed should they get popped.

Mark

Paul Hough

If you aren't following the Moats thread you might have missed this latest doping bust...5 time Kona XC competitor.  So yeah, they are even cheating in that division.  https://www.usada.org/bill-beyer-accepts-doping-sanction/

Paul Curtin

So they do indeed announce these things, albeit rather slowly.  That article was published January 19, 2018

"Beyer’s two-year period of ineligibility began on April 14, 2017, the date he admitted his violations"

Maybe the gap was time between admitting and finally accepting the sanction

scott dinhofer

I've read most of the ST thread and the comments above. I've also had a deep conversation with a well known pro on the matter. 
One-WTC has no incentive to decrease doping. The biggest mark of a doper is repeat-ability. 2 years ago, the guy who won my AG at LP with a time 1 hour faster than @tim cronk's winning time the year before, went on to do MT  3 weeks later in 3rd place, 4 weeks later, he was the 3rd over all male at IM-Moo and 4 weeks after that was #5 in his AG at Kona. 
sure seems like a doper to me. Why would WTC want this guy outed? have you not noticed that IMs don't sell out anymore? this guy did 4 events in 10 weeks. I am sure he did others that year as well. If I am a business, and we know WTC is, I am not going to do anything to dissaude people from flying frequently. WADA, etc needs to come in and police it. If IM has to raise prices to pay ADA testing fees, so be it. 

I remain confident that I can get to the top and follow the great people in this haus that win K slots the old fashioned way. At 53 in a few weeks, I know that my increasing performance of the last few years is going to hit the peak of what I can do with my age and will then start to see the depressing decline.  

Paul Hough

@PaulCurtin - yes, the lag time between admission and the announcement was too long, and his penalty was too light.  The guy had been cheating for 7 years and he is only banned 2 years.  

@ScottDinhofer - I'm very cynical when it comes to doping in the sport.  I just do what I can and look for enjoyment in other aspects of the racing.  But I'm not willing to concede that repeatability is THE marker.  Think of Joe Bonness who typically did 3 x IM in the space of two months each fall.  Nobody suspects he was a doper.  In fact, he quit because IM would not do anything about Moats.  To me the biggest marker is outlier performances 30-60 mins faster than the natural FOP break in the same race same AG.  I.e., say in M60 the winner takes 10 hours flat, and the next three guys come in at 11:02, 11:05, and 11:07.   You know the guys in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th had trained their asses off and yet were destroyed.  I want WTC to test that guy in front both in and out of competition to verify that he is a true outlier and not just doped up.  I don't expect change in the Age Groups but I would argue to WTC that they lose more people to the sport (aka Joe Bonness) than they keep by not cleaning it up.  The guy who flies regularly might do 4 a year, but has discouraged 10 or more to not bother with ironman or 70.3.  Meanwhile, I'm still going to give it my very best shot at Norway even though I will have to turn it down if I finally KQ.  One can dream.

tim cronk

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty.... BUT I am like Paul and Scott (very cynical) Testing the top AG'ers and anomalies make sense, stuff like course records etc, I'm sure they could set up some algorithms for outlier performances.... 

Heck I was at a lunch yesterday (Heather and I are by far the youngest at the table at 55/56) and this comes up.  Yep a bunch of 70-80 year olds talking about this cheat.... Was hilarious...
https://www.runnersworld.com/ultra-marathon/ultra-runner-hides-in-port-a-potty  

Since we now know there is doping in ZWIFT and STRAVA , I'll go one further and say there is even doping in GOLF!

Derrek Sanks

@tim cronk that's probably true because I just read a member of the US Archery team was sanctioned for doping. Go figure...

Al Truscott

Golf, Archery...dont they take things to calm nerves, avoid the yips?

Paul Curtin

There's a section of the WADA prohibited list for sport-specific agents, and it lists beta blockers as prohibited both In-Competition and Out-of-Competition for sports like archery and shooting

But if you're into darts they're only prohibited during the In-Competition period.  Yes, darts.  People are doping in every sport

Paul Curtin

https://www.usada.org/2018-prohibited-list-summary-of-major-changes/

Need help on something: the 2018 changes list a bunch of glucocorticoids, and lists them as prohibited "when administered by oral, intravenous, intramuscular or rectal routes"

So what about using Flonase in the commonly-prescribed manner, namely spraying into the nostrils ... is that still allowed or is that considered oral use?

Al Truscott

To this MD, "Oral" sounds like a pill or liquid, taken by mouth..."p.o." (Funny they don't mention sub-lingual, or sub-cutaneous.) Nose sprays are called nasal as you suggest, and since that route is not listed as prohibited, I would think it is allowed. Something I use for seasonal allergies.

The current Froome case in cycling demonstrates that WADA has set the prohibited blood levels above that which is possible by nasal administration.

What about professional gamers, who are paid big $$ and watched by a large audience world-wide - we should presume they also have found some PEDs which help them?

John Katsoudas

I finally got around to watching the documentary "Icarus" last night.  Two thoughts come to mind relative to this discussion after watching that.  It would appear that the methods and protocols for beating doping controls are pretty much common knowledge nowadays.  I would think that anyone that wants to dope and not get caught could do so pretty easily.  So 1) it's baffling to me that someone like Moats, who apparently has no moral qualms with cheating, couldn't be bothered to figure out how to do so without getting busted, and 2) I have very little confidence that even if more AG'er's were tested that it would result in many positives. 

Dave Campbell

I think that guy has cheating problems all around.  I remember stories of him racing with mirrors on his helmet to watch for officials so he could draft, then back off when approached by a moto.