The Swim - Total Immersion vs High Elbow

scott dinhofer

A little background, despite being a fish as a kid and having been on some swim teams in middle school, I am really an adult onset swimmer. 2 years ago I was fortunate during Al Camp to have @Danielle Santucci comment to me on my stroke and how I didn't have a high elbow catch. I immersed myself in this concept, went to a local stroke specialist, and had a breakthrough swim at IMLP that year. 

This past season I befriended and became friends with a guy named James. James and I swam virtually the same speed. We'd do pool workouts sharing a lane and OWS with a group together. Most times, he'd be about 2-3" / 100yds faster than me. That said, we'd also often be swimming the same speed which was great in the pool because I could alter my stroke and see the immediate impact of it. Generally speaking we'd be swimming long sets at a lo- mid 1:4x/100 yard pace and hard 100 sets at a lo-mid 1:3x pace. 

At IM Lake Placid which we both did, I beat him by 2:56 in the swim. 

James came over last night to check out the Vasa. He and his wife went up to New Paltz a few weeks ago and did a 1 day Total Immersion clinic. I know the concept as I once took lessons from a TI schooled teacher around 6 years ago. concept of arms on rails, straight arm, pulling down, etc. James told me he just came out of the pool where he did a short wko of 1800 yds. He was swimming hi 1:20s for 100s and his longer set was mid 1:30s. That's a big improvement in a short time. 

on the Vasa, in my first 100, I typically am pulling around 50 watts(drifts down to high 30s by end of a 3000 meter wko). James got on it and was pulling 70-80 watts.. 

so, the question is... Abandon the pursuit of high elbow catch and take a TI lesson course? or keep the faith and just keep working on the high elbow?

as an addendum, I am having a PRP (Platelet injection) to my left Biceps tendon where I have tendinosis for a few years in later January, and will not be able to even start back up on the vasa or pool until around mid march. 

Paul Curtin

Keep the faith.  TI teaches a bunch of good habits.  James may have benefited from a lowered head position, higher hips, and overall improved balance/rotation

Although the Vasa power difference is intriguing ... other factors could be at play.  A good test would be for him to use the high-elbow on Vasa and see if that reduced power

Sheila Leard

@Paul Curtin
James may have benefited from a lowered head position, higher hips, and overall improved balance/rotation

@Scott Dinhofer I am forever on the hunt for improving technique. I listen to Tower 26 podcasts and recently Taron picked up an important topic that Jerry Rodriguez talks about - taughtness. The very things that Paul referenced. Wondering if your friend James has incorporated the 'taughtness' and not swimming like a banana as Jerry would say.

Check out this video:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=tower+26+swim+technique&view=detail&mid=512866D72FED64F31D12512866D72FED64F31D12&FORM=VIRE

Paul Hough

I took a TI clinic about 10 years ago shortly after I started triathlon and it helped at the time.  Now I won't even consider a swim camp if it is run by TI master instructors.  Stay the course.  The fact that your friend is pulling greater watts does not mean it came from the TI.

Derrek Sanks

@Scott Dinhofer - I second Gerry Rodrigues and Tower 26. Find his podcasts and listen to at least the fist 10 episodes. I've been following his teachings for over a year with much success.

Francis Picard

keep with what you are doing and focus on what helped you get a breakthrough swim last year.

Cheryl Turpin

I have been using the T1 method for the last 5 years.  I come from a traditional swim background yet I find I love the calmness of TI....it is a stroke that is based in Kaizan principle of always learning....based on efficiency of stroke.  Everyone is different and what works for them may not for the next person.  I have no problem swimming upto 7.5 kms with this stroke, coming out of the water totally relaxed and biking.

Brian Gaffin

Decided this year to try TI and I am very happy - have had a series of private sessions with a Master Coach.  I am swimming faster with less effort and this is just after 3 sessions.   

scott dinhofer

Little update here, 
my friend and I typically maxed out at a low 1:30s/ 1:29ish fastest 100. He just reported having swam a "few 100s and a 200 at 1:29"
I on the other hand have gone all in on the Vasa... will be interesting to see how this works out at LP.. 

Alicia Chase

I am an adult onset swimmer and have never done a swim camp, but I have done swim lessons and was on the Masters swim team at my gym for about 3 years (now defunct, unfortunately.) I've read and tried everything, and I mean everything, and have noticed than only a couple of things have had any real impact on my stroke. Also have listened to the Tower26 podcasts, and agree that "body tautness" has improved my swim. Also, while the high elbow catch seems to work fine for me in the pool, once I get into open water (typically a little choppier) in a wetsuit, I find that a straighter arm recovery serves me better. I think the wetsuit tends to fatigue my shoulders, and the high elbow exacerbates that, and a straight arm recovery helps with my rotation and hip drive through rougher water. That said, it's probably what is happening with my catch below the water that is having the biggest impact. If your friend has changed his catch and pull due to a different above-the-water recovery, that could be the difference for him.