Red Mist Swimmers and Finis Tempo Trainer

Sheila Leard

I've been searching the forums and wikki for how to implement Red Mist Sessions. I went to Swim Smooth and there is some info there http://www.feelforthewater.com/2012/07/red-mist-set.html

Since my swim fitness is not great right now, would I set my pace off of my 1000 TT or not worry about it and just see if I can bring the pace down in the Red Mist sets. Of course this is a goal. I'm not starting out with Red Mist. But for me I need benchmarks. 

I was filmed in an Endless Pool last month. The coach mentioned getting my stroke rate up. I have a Tempo Trainer. I plan to use it and also make benchmarks for improvement. 

The project begins! 

Old Thread:
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/21057/red-mist-swimmers-wetronome-settings

Thank You
Sheila

Susan Kelly

I coach masters and we integrate Finis Tempo Trainer in our workouts. Pull buoy sets of at least 200 yards, like 3 x 200 yards, work well with stroke rate. Try both mode 1 and mode 3 on the tempo trainer to see what works best. Make your stroke rate faster or slower with each 200 yard swim. See how that compares with your pace for the 200 and your perceived exertion. Be patient. Tempo Trainer is a great swim tool. Mode 2, is good for pace, like a virtual swim training partner. Figure out at what pace you expect to hit each 25 yards at, and aim to stay on it. Maybe you start at 100 yards, paced for 27 seconds on the 25 yard mark. See if you can carry that out to 200 yards. Good luck. 

Derrek Sanks

Proper pacing for Red Mist sessions is important. Do the CSS test (per the Swim Smooth protocol on their site) and use a tempo trainer for pacing. FWIW, last year my CSS and T-pace were about the same. 

Sheila Leard

@Susan Kelly thanks for the feedback. I tried mode 3 today and put it on 60. That felt slow but smooth. Another swimmer thought I was a ticking time bomb I read somewhere that 70-80 is the rate for OWS.

@Derrek Sanks you have me wondering if CSS will be my T-pace.

Dave Tallo

In the past, I have started red mist using my 1000m t pace from an early season test, and progressed or adjusted from there. 

Also, I have found that my sweet spot of SPM from ramp tests is not the optimal tempo I used in red mist (or IM races).   It’s actually much slower .

Sid Wavrin

@Sheila Leard  You will see I just posted in another thread my CSS with the calculator and 1000 TT are the same. I think you could use either to pace Red Mist.

Mike Roberts

@Sheila Leard I began using the wetronome and Red Mist extensively 3-4 years ago when I decided I wanted to swim near the front in the :55 range for IM instead of in the front of the mayhem around 1:02-05. CSS and TT tests always produced the same numbers, the difference being for me that the 1k left me toast and effectively ending the wko. Spent at least one wko per wk getting stroke rate from the 50’s into the 70’s using the wetronome (not easy at all). Pace the Mist sets properly, again with wetronome, even if you start with 200s, then 300’s before moving onto the the big ones. I did the full Mist sets 1x/wk, dropping 100 pace by one sec every two weeks. It’s a pretty brutal wko, but extraordinarily effective if you're consistent and motivated. Which I know you are. 

Susan Kelly

@Sheila Leard Sounds like you'r doing great. Keep at it. The swim is my strength. Always room for improvement though. I can't address your CSS to pace question. I do love the Swim Smooth guys. What I do know is I want to use the swim leg to set myself up for the rest of the day. Using the Tempo Trainer and shifting between pace on mode 2 and stroke rate on mode 1 or 3 in practice once or twice per week, is translating to open water success. When I feel nervous, I can count my strokes in OW. I know right where I am in distance. The whole goal for me is to be as efficient as possible and on pace swimming, get out of the water (swim leg) and feel like my day is just beginning. Bike and run are a whole other story. The real work begins. Good luck. 

John Culberson

A well executed 1000 and a CSS (400/200) each provide information. For me, swimming 1000 requires the kind of focus that contributes to my best LC open water swim. I have always used the 1000, although this year, I’m going to regularly test my CSS and compare the two. Mike Roberts is right... my best 1000 is pretty devasting to the rest of my workout, but a mentally valuable test for me, particularly during specific race prep (Think 20/2/20 vs 5/20 FTP testing on the bike). Stroke count is not as important as rythmn for me. I come from a sprint freestyle background, so my turnover is pretty high, and clearly increases during shorter swim intervals with increased speed (often more than my 1000TT supports). Think 30/30’s vs 2x20’. I suspect that being able to find a rythmn at a variety of cadences is as valuable in swimming, as it is in cycling. Wave and current conditions (and having lots of friends in your “lane”) are unpredictable on race day :-)
@Sheila Leard @Derrek Sanks: It’s good if your CSS=1000TT. Balanced fitness.
@Dave Tallo: Especially if you add a wetsuit.
@Mike Roberts: Brutal is good. (Sub-60 at Age 60) Swim fitness will help late in the run.
@Susan Kelly: 200’s arrrggghh. Can we do some 50’s 

Sheila Leard

Thanks everyone!! Lots to chew on.

@Dave Tallo are you saying that your sweet spot SPM is slower in an IM or slower in the test? 
OWS rate is what I'm working on.

Scott Imlay

@Sheila Leard this is not related to cadence, but while you build your swim fitness you could do the Red Mist's little brother, the Pink Mist workout,

http://www.feelforthewater.com/2015/03/introducing-pink-mist-set.html

I did this a few times last spring during the early stages of my Half Iron build.  It seemed to do a good job of increasing my endurance.

Sheila Leard

Thanks @scottimlay I even like the sound of Pink Mist. Looks like a good place to start.

Dave Tallo

Sheila, my spm is slower in a race / ows.   I don’t agree with the view that arm turnover needs to increase in open water (or in chop) ... I think the more important part is that dead spots are eliminated from the stroke.  Forward progression is forward progression.

John Culberson

@Dave Tallo: Exactly. Eliminating dead spots in the stroke requires matching SPM to wave frequency (and position of other swimmers). It’s efficient and keeps one moving toward the finish. If its a calm lake swim, and I have clear water, my SPM will match a long pool swim... in my case, even slower than 1000TT. That’s why I’m hoping Red Mist will help me to maintain SPM across a full 4K distance. My increased SPM in a full wetsuit is caused by restriction of my shoulders and is uncomfortable. I plan many OWS in my wetsuit to fix that. The rougher the swim, the more that I emphasize a strong recovery to maintain turnover and eliminate dead spots. It probably “feels” like a higher SPM than it actulally is. Of course, we all want a nice calm wetsuit swim :-)

Mike Roberts

Dave and John, I agree 95%. Swimming downstream or in calm conditions in a wet suit is like riding downhill - easy to hide gearing and power shortcomings. But like riding uphill, when swimming upstream (or in chop/swells), the two main components in play are power and gearing. If you have one gear on the bike and no dead spots in the pedal stroke, only way to go faster uphill is more watts, which naturally generates more rpms and speed. Once you get to 100 rpms, you’d love another bike gear, but you’re SOL.

Against a current 95% of us have at least a few gears: decent, deteriorating and crap technique. The easiest way to get faster is to improve technique until you buy that good-form gear (with no dead spots). That’s why I agree 95%. For 95% of us, our primary focus should be on developing good technique and the fitness to sustain it for 60 min. Swimming with bad form is like time-trialing on a MTB. Buy a tri bike that fits, then we’ll talk about FTP. 

But . . . what if you’re the 5% who has acquired good swim form and can sustain it for an hour at, say, 65 spm?  You have effectively dropped the decent, deteriorating and crap gears and are left with a single good-form gear (unless you employ different sized paddles). What to do now when gliding/drafting isn’t an available option?  Just like climbing on a single-gear bike, the primary way to go faster upstream is build the swim watts and turn over faster until you can get to 70, maybe 75 spm without compromising that good form. Few of us mortals will ever see 80 spm for more than a few hundred meters. At 88-95 spm, the Potts, Browlees, and Charles of the world maximize propulsion, minimize the effects of OW conditions and separate from those who simply can’t match their technique and power. How on earth can someone like Lucy develop and sustain perfect form at 90 spm for 45 minutes? She swims 10,000 meters. Or more. Every day. And has probably done so since she learned to read. 

Because there is no such thing as perfect form and there are many factors at play in OWS, the ^^ is a gross over-simplification used by others who actually know swimming to explain to this simpleton why the top OW swimmers all seemingly churn at such high rates.