Feedback please on HIM bike nutrition strategy

John Katsoudas

I'll preface this by saying that this is my first Outseason back in training in several years, and I'm re-learning a lot of things (or in most cases just realizing that I was doing it wrong in the past).  I'm currently in week 3 of the January OS plan.  All my riding over the last 7-8 months has been in the 1 - 1.5 hour range, so the Saturday long rides the last two weeks were a bit of an adaptation for me, as I'm just not used to going 2.5 - 3 hours.  I got through them OK and was able to execute the planned workouts, but got home feeling completely wiped out, like all I wanted to do was eat the whole universe and then go to sleep for 10 hours.  The thought of running off the bike was crazy talk.  I initially chalked this up to just needing to build some fitness to deal with longer rides, and that may very well be part of the equation.  However, I started looking at what I was eating and drinking on the rides, and also read a bunch of posts here along with the nutrition wiki.  I've come to suspect that a lot of what I was experiencing was just lack of fluids, salt and calories.  Last week, for example, I did 55 miles in three hours, and in that time I had one bottle of water, one bottle of Gatorade Endurance, and two Clif bars.  

So I decided that, for this week's ride I would try to come up with something that more closely followed the wiki guidance on fluids, sodium and calories.  I'm 160 lbs, so the calorie formula puts me at 160 * 0.625 * 4 = 400 cal/hr.  In looking at the powdered Gatorade Endurance nutrition info, one 24oz. bottle (3 scoops of powder) would give me 180 calories and 600mg of sodium.  I'm a heavy sweater, so I figured a simple approach might look something like this:

One 24oz. bottle of gatorade endurance every 30 min (total of 5 bottles in 2.5 hours) would give me 360 calories and 1200mg sodium per hour.  I added in one Clif Shot gel (110 cal) at the one hour mark, for a total of 1,000 calories in 2.5 hours.



I weighed myself before the ride @ 160.2 lbs.  I was a little worried that this was going to be too much fluids, as I had to go to the bathroom roughly once per hour and the last bottle was a little tough to finish, but when I weighed myself post-ride I was at 159.6 lbs so I still lost 0.6 lbs despite taking in 48oz. per hour.

The ride itself felt good.  I didn't have that sense of "how the heck am I going to make it through this" in the last 60min block of z3 that I had the prior two weeks.  Post-ride I felt like I could definitely run, and didn't have that compelling hunger or need to go take a nap.  

So, this definitely feels like progress, but it also seems like perhaps an overly simplistic approach.  I'd love to hear everyone's feedback and thoughts on what I should try next.

Thanks,
John

Paul Curtin

Hello @John Katsoudas -- an excellent question.  When is your targeted HIM event?  It seems like what you described above applies nicely for the OutSeason workouts in addition to a HIM

Gotta say that what you came up with looks pretty good -- 400 calories/hour seems about right so stay with it

Chocolate-Cherry Clif Shot?  Dang, that flavor sounds pretty good!

John Katsoudas

Hi @Paul Curtin - thanks for the input and validation.  If this looks like a decent approach, I'll continue to test it out over the coming weeks and see how it holds up to varying conditions.

My target events for this coming season are 70.3 Coeur D'Alene in late June and 70.3 Santa Cruz in early September, so I have plenty of time to sort things out between now and then.  I've checked the Coeur D'Alene website and they will be serving Gatorade Endurance and Clif Shot gels on the course, so that played a part in the approach I came up with.

Yes, Chocolate Cherry Clif Shots are by far my favorites.  Definitely worth a try!

Thanks,
John

tim cronk

@John Katsoudas smart to practice nutrition on a hard ride... sounds perfect to me... was this indoors on a trainer? strong fan? if it was make sure to repeat outside in race conditions as well

@Paul Curtin yeah those chocolate cherry clif gels are pretty good and they pack a punch with 100mg of caffeine so you have to use them sparingly :-) or not.... In fact I picked one up today for a little run I am doing tomorrow!

John Katsoudas

@tim cronk  the last two Saturday rides were outdoors but today's ride was on the trainer, which was probably closer to race day sweat rate as it was 70 deg. in the pain cave whereas it's been in the 50's outside lately.  I'll definitely need to weigh myself pre/post-ride for a while in different conditions to dial things in.

Peter Greagg

@John Katsouda
Just wondering how you chose the hourly fluid intake?
Standard protocol is to do a long bike wko and after 2 hours on the road, come home and weigh yourself, then spend 60 mins on the trainer at race pace and measure everything that goes in and out, and after the 60 mins, weigh yourself again. etc

John Katsoudas

@Peter Greagg honestly, it was a total SWAG.  Partly a guess based on my perceived sweat rate, and party a convenient amount of Gatorade that would give me nearly all my calories and sodium.

Jeff Horn

I envy you guys that can down 2 bottles an hour.  I'm trying to train my gut to tolerate more per hour but am lucky to get in a full bottle.  My have to hire Kobyashi or Joey Chestnut as a consultant.  

Derrek Sanks

@John Katsoudas - your new hydration/nutrition plan is basically the same as what I switched to last season for IM distance races, minus the gel. Works great for me. I'm 6'1 and 165#. The gel was putting me at 470 cal/hr which a WSM suggested was too many calories/hr. 

@Jeff Horn - I thought the same thing last year when I went from 1 bottle/hr to 2 bottles/hr. It just takes practice. I even went to 3 bottles in the first hour during the IM bike leg to make up for the calorie deficit from the swim. But after going to 2 bottles/hr, I had zero muscles cramps for the first time in both of my last HIM and IM races.

Jeff Horn

I don't necessarily suffer muscle cramps during races, but do get bloated easily.  Will practice @Derrek Sanks Gonna start pushing the intake volume up on my Sunday efforts.  The professional eaters I mentioned above all practice it, so I should as well.

Gordon Cherwoniak

@John Katsoudas Not much to add but I do like the switch from bars to fluid and gels given the higher effort levels you will have on a 70.3 race compared to an IM.  I have not done a 70.3 in over 10 years and will be going fluid/gels for my upcoming 70.3 in Calgary this year.  

The sweat test mentioned by Peter would not be a bad idea either.  If you do find you need additional fluids and can't stomach any more Gatorade then water/salt is an alternative that I use in additional to what's in the Gatorade and gels.

Sheila Leard

One 24oz. bottle of gatorade endurance every 30 min (total of 5 bottles in 2.5 hours) would give me 360 calories and 1200mg sodium per hour.  I added in one Clif Shot gel (110 cal) at the one hour mark, for a total of 1,000 calories in 2.5 hours.

@johnkatsoudas Your numbers look good but be aware that total volume of fluid isn't the only variable to look at. Gastric emptying and absorption is the priority. Depending on heat conditions of the course, how muscular you are and sweat rate will determine if 48 ounces/ hour is too much.  I say this because Gatorade has a high osmolality -  it's higher than blood serum and can createa osmotic load.  So,  if you push a high osmolality drink along with a gel you could be increasing the osmotic load from so much sugar therefore, decreasing absorption. Bloating and sloshing sets in.  

You weigh 160 or 73 kg. If your not the muscular type then your calories needs are in the range of 4-5 cal/kg/hour = 292-365 cal/ hour. 

• Can your gut handle just G for 2.5 hours?
• Post weight also reflects glycogen depletion (carb stores) 1 gram glycogen holds 3 grams water. So your body weight will reflect some glycogen loss as well as fluid loss. Post weight the same as  pre-weight could indicate too much fluid intake. 
• Kudos to you for focusing on hydration. It really is the limiter in performance. Calories can't be absorbed if you're dehydrated.

John Katsoudas

@Sheila Leard thank you so much.  I hadn't considered the osmotic load of what I was taking in.  This may explain why the last bottle was sort of hard to take in last week.  I was definitely feeling a little bloated and sloshy in the last 30 minutes.  I will try the same plan again this week, minus the gel, and see how it goes.  We're having an unseasonably warm spell at the moment, so I should be able to get outdoors and try this strategy out in mid-70's weather and see now it goes.

Thanks,

John

Shaughn Simmons

John, before long course I probably raced 30+ HIMs......  I separate caloric needs from sodium requirements.

1) Caloric needs, during an HIM for me, less is more given I am running at an intensity of .83-.85 IF on the bike leg and trying to negative split the 13.1  I just can't process a lot of calories at those intensities.  I think Sheila's guidance is right on for your weight and should be practiced during your RR and dialed in.  <300 cal/hour assuming you carb loaded one day before.  I like to make all my calories liquid because its makes it more simple to execute and easier to digest while pushing.

2) Sodium/Hydration needs.  Don't swag this.  Go to the EN wiki and follow the Sweat test protocol. Here is the link: http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/91/Default.aspx?topic=Sweat+Trial+Instructions

Practice the above during your scheduled race rehearsals and adjust as needed.

Last Oct, as a reference, at age 50, I had my fastest HIM run in Austin following these protocols and going into the race with strong running durability.  High temps for the day were ~90 degrees.  

You can do this leveraging the wiki guidance, the members here and executing the training as well as race day pacing/nutrition.

KMF!

John Katsoudas

Thanks Shaughn!  I definitely intend to do a sweat test.  The initial SWAG was just to get up and running but I can see from your and everyone else's posts and from re-reading the wiki again that there's plenty of work to be done to dial this all in.  Thankfully I still have 20 weeks to race day, so lots of opportunity to practice.

Mark Stahlkopf

Hi John,

Per Sheila's comment: "You weigh 160 or 73 kg. If your not the muscular type then your calories needs are in the range of 4-5 cal/kg/hour = 292-365 cal/ hour".

I would start at the lower end of the calorie range then work up to see how your body reacts to the increase in calories. I always feel that its best to error on the side of too few calories than too many. Its much easier to fix too few. The key is to learn how to read what you body is telling you.

Sheila Leard

@markstahlkopf  Completely agree with you. It's easier to come back to the game with a shot of sugar than being dehydrated and waiting for your body to get back to a  balanced hydration status. Be a minimalist without bonking. For reference I need about 3.5-4 cal/kg/hr. 

Anyone that can get  to a quality exercise physiology lab and get a Metabolic Efficiency test do it. It will tell you what you  burn at various paces. The protocol must be done correctly. It's not a ramped up V02 test. Ideally you want the date interpreted by a Sports Dietitian, CSSD, Board Certified Specialist in Sports Dietetics that is trained in Metabolic Efficiency.

You could contact Bob Seebohar for names of testers in your area. It's a valuable test for long course athletes.
https://www.enrgperformance.com/metabolic-efficiency-testing/

John Katsoudas

Thanks again @Sheila Leard.  That's great information.  You're not too far from me in Folsom.  Do you happen to know of anyone in the south bay area (San Jose area) that does metabolic efficiency testing?

Sheila Leard

@johnkatsoudas I've been looking for someone near you that does this testing. No luck so far.
UC Davis Sports Performance in Sacramento does a great job on testing. That's a bit of a drive but might be worth it. There has to be someone in the Bay Area that does this. I'll keeping looking.

Sheila Leard

@johnkatsoudas I found an  Exercise Physiologist at the  Human Performance Center at University of California, San Francisco that can do testing. Is that too far? 

John Katsoudas

@Sheila Leard UCSF is about an hour north, so a bit of a drive but not necessarily a deal-breaker.  Out of curiosity, I wonder where in the 'continuum of things to spend money on' in this sport you'd place this testing?  IOW, is the information I'd get from this testing going to be materially significant for a MOP'er like me that's re-entering the sport after a few years off or is this more suited for folks that are looking to shave those last few minutes off for that Kona spot?  Also, how often do people typically re-test?  It definitely sounds interesting.  I think this is one of those things where people might eventually stumble across the right answer with enough trial-and-error but proper testing sounds like it could save a LOT of heartache and suboptimal results.

Sheila Leard

@johnkatsoudas You can figure it out without testing. Full Ironman is when the nuances of fueling get tricky. You're paying attention to the details so I believe you'll will be fine.

Ross Randolph

@johnkatsoudas Thank you for posting your question; as another Bay Area EN'er (Benicia) I'm having many of the same questions.  I'm also doing Santa Cruz at the end of the summer, but my next race is Santa Rosa 70.3.  We're about the same weight so I would be curious if you've found a good recipe for success.  I have not used the Gatorade Endurance; I've always found Gatorade products to be too "sugary" and upsetting to my stomach.  I've raced with EFS products in the past (ok on my stomach during race but always GI distress after!).  Lately I've been trying Hammer's Perpetuem which gives minimal GI issues on my long rides.  I can get 270 calories per bottle  (I've been aiming for 1 bottle every 45 minutes).  I haven't yet combined 3 hour ride + long run with that plan yet so will see how that works out in some upcoming race rehearsals.

@SheilaLeard Do you have a contact at UC Davis?  That's very close to me and would like to check it out.

John Katsoudas

Hey @Ross Randolph.  Good luck in Santa Rosa, and hopefully we'll get a chance to meet in Santa Cruz.

The primary reason I'm sticking with Gatorade Endurance for the moment is that it's what's being served on the course at Coeur D'Alene and Santa Cruz, and I like the simplicity of "living off the land" so to speak, vs. carrying my own nutrition.  It makes my bike setup simpler when I can have one bottle BTA that I'm drinking from and one more bottle behind the saddle in case I accidentally drop the primary or miss a handoff at an aid station.  I started out trying to drink one 24 oz. bottle every 30 minutes, which would give me all the calories and sodium I would need, but that was pretty hard to stick to.  After the first 90 minutes, I'd start to feel a little sloshy and I've finished a few long (3 - 3.5 hour) trainer rides having had to go to the bathroom 2-3 times and still weighing more at the end than when I started.  So, I'm currently playing with optimal intake quantities.  One bottle every 40 minutes seems to be much easier to put down, and I'm adding 1 Clif gel at the 1 hour and 2 hour points to add the calories back in from drinking one fewer bottle.  That still leaves me weighing close to the same post-ride as pre-ride.  So far, this has been working out pretty well for me.  The longest run I've done off a long ride is 1 hour, and for that I continued on with Gatorade Endurance at ~4 oz. per mile (trying to simulate a small cup at each aid station) and that seemed to work out pretty well, but at some point I just start to get sick of that much of any one thing, so I may end up having to throw in something else just to break up the monotony.  I've got 3 more weeks of long rides to sort this out.  I feel like I'm close, and could probably be successful with what I've practiced so far, but it could still be improved.

Sheila Leard

@Ross Randolph  If you can get a Metabolic Efficiency test done .. do it! This will tell you what you are burning at different zones, then you can dial in your fueling.  The test should be done on your bike not treadmill. 

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/sportsmedicine/programs/physiological_tests.html
Physiologist is Judd Van Sickle. Tell him I referred you. He knows the protocol.

Sheila Leard

@john katsoudas  Trying to get all ogf your calories and fluids in one bottle could potentially slow absorption out of the stomach and into the small intestine. Trainer rides are hard to simulate outside conditions in regards to fueling and drinking. You don't want to weigh more than when you started! 

Since you are attempting to live off the course look at this:
Consider that you may need around 300 calories per hour. Let's say your bike is 3 hours.

Total calories needed 900 calories.
GE  - 3 Bottles = 540 cal spread out with water. This will dilute the osmotic load (sort of) and not leaving you feeling sloshy.
Cliff Block Chews - 2 sleeves = 400 cal. No gels. Too much of a bolus of sugar that wont be absorbed. 

It's not unusual to lose a little weight after a long ride. The sodium and fluids are meant to offset the loss - not match it.

John Katsoudas

@Sheila Leard thank you so much!  I will definitely try this out this Saturday and see how it feels compared to the last few long rides.  I really appreciate your help and insights.

Quick question for you: the formula for calories in the Wiki puts me closer to 400 cal/hr based on my weight.  I've always assumed that more calories on the bike is better (within reason), as this means I can worry less on the run about how many calories I'm taking in.  What's the downside to targeting closer to 400 cal/hr vs. the 300 cal/hr you mention, if I can stomach it (again, assuming I go with a little less Gatorade, a little more water, and a little more Clif Block Chews to get to the #)?

Thanks,
John

Tom Glynn

I've had pretty good success in my last two races "living off the land".  Most of my plan came for the Core Diet Group.  One bottle of Gatorade Endurance every 30 minutes. Food every 45 minutes.  I carried all my food with me. First two feeds are 1/2 Power bar and the rest are a gel.  For the run, one bottle per hour, one gel every 45 minutes and a Clif Blok every two miles. We worked out the calorie and sodium requirements based on my weight and expected times. Fluids were based upon a sweat test.

Lots of pre-race practice as this stuff is not the best tasting stuff I've ever had .  For both IMs, I did three trainer rides to practice nutrition.  I found it really hard to carry that stuff with me to try and practice outside.

The powdered stuff you buy online tastes slightly different than the premixed stuff you get at the races.  For my first IM on this plan, I carried 3 bottles of powdered formula on the bike and got 3 more at special needs. The other 4 bottles I got off the course.  This past race I took 3 with me and did not use special needs.