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Boomer Seminar 2: Training Plans & Season Planning Adjustments

This was a 100% crowdsourced effort to share and discuss our collective knowledge. This was a round table discussion -- with Moderator @Paul Curtin -- where everyone, in less than a minute, says ONE or TWO bullets about what he or she is doing in each of the two topic areas. That should take less than half an hour. Then, after everyone had a chance to share, there was time for conversation to explore one another ideas. View the full Boomer Seminar thread here.

Topics in rank order are: 
  • Quantity/frequency of threshold work necessary to maintain V02

  • Strategies to modify EN Plans to allow for changes in ability to recovery

  • HIIT Training to maintain muscle in OFs [link]

  • Season planning goals when incorporating longer recovery needs


Here is the video recording: 

https://endurancenation.wistia.com/medias/nljydxiv5u?embedType=iframe&seo=false&videoFoam=true&videoWidth=2

Tagged:

Comments

  • Let’s post the metrics we use to determine a rest day. For me, when my TSB is -20 or less, RHR is above 45, HRV is below 40, and if my weight has dropped. If I see two or three of any of those four variables for more than a day, I take a rest day. @Al Truscott, is Ramp Rate part of TrainingPeaks software? I have a premium account, but I’ve never seen that.
  • @Alicia Chase: Ramp Rate appears under the "Fitness Report" Tab when setting up "Charts." I have separate ramp rate graphs for each sport. My "need rest" metric is TSB >-15 for more than 3 days, although during a HIM/IM build weeks, that becomes less useful since TSB appears to be overly influenced by volume, IMHO. When I start having trouble sleeping, I know I need a rest. HR is significantly affected by heat and hydration, but when it is lagging at a given power output... my heart is telling me that its beat too many time in the last week. I have never really monitored resting HR or variability. I'm having enough trouble getting my gear together at 5 am.

    For me, I really only look at the running ramp rate. While, I'm not sure what ramp rate (I believe that the curves simply represent 7-day, 28-day, and 90 day PMC data) for running gets me into injury risk, but I'm trying to limit Run TSB to -5. In the past, visually, if the curve keeps rising for more than a few weeks without a "correction," I've ended up hurt. 
  • I have several data points that tell me when to take a rest day.  But I don't always listen to them

    My best source is my wife Mo.  She knows exactly when I need to rest.  I always listen to that
  • @John Culberson Thanks for the info, I found it and set up 3 ramp rate charts: bike, run and all. I do like the "all" option because, if I'm swimming, that also involves a one hour commute to and from the gym. While it isn't factored into my TSB in any measurable way, it usually means that I will have much more accumulated "life" fatigue. 
  • @Paul Curtin While my husband never tells me I need to rest, if I'm getting really short with him, I know I need a rest day.
  • @Alicia Chase
    Here are two articles from Training Peaks on Ramp Rate. Friel's IMO is too simplistic in his prescription of "5-8" being a reasonable ramp rate. The other article, intended for coaches (we are self-coached athletes), is more nuanced, but thus of necessity requires more thinking on the reader's part:

    https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/why-ramp-rate-is-an-important-training-metric/

    https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/understanding-trainingpeaks-ramp-rate-for-better-coaching/

    Bear in mind that it is possible, when coming off, say, a recovery period following an "A" race, to have a positive TSB, and a ramp rate which is rising dangerously fast. That is a prime time for injury, in my experience. 

    On the other hand, when in the middle of an IM build, and doing a Camp Week, or something similar, it's again possible to have a very high ramp rate, but to be able to handle it quite well, due to the preceding steady increase in training, exemplified by a rising CTL/negative TSB. Then, a couple of days' rest does a good job of solidifying the gains.

    As to the other question of signs of over-training, I'll hit that in another post.
  • I knew we'd been talking about this recently...See this thread in the Boomer Forum from two months ago:

    https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/comment/262884#Comment_262884
  • That said, here is what I use to tell me when to back off (take it easy or totally off on a given day). In no particular order, as sometimes one will show up first, others times, it will be something else:
    • Sense of fatigue, e.g., what Sheila said about feeling tired going upstairs.
    • Changes to sleep - restless, wakeful, and/or oversleeping
    • Change of weight - I use a Tanita scale, so I see my % Body Water as well as my weight. I weight myself daily, first thing (well, second) in the morning. The "tell". like sleep, can be in either direction. Under or over my steady weight, over or under hydrated (58.5 is my nominal % body water)
    • Grouchiness
    • Needing a nap before noon
    • Feeling hungry in the middle of the night, or an hour after breakfast.
    Note all of these (even the weight and hydration) are more or less subjective. I've found things like TSB and RHR are lagging indicators - by the time they are outside "normal" limits, I've already made the decision to back off.

    Most recent example is today...yesterday, my weight had dropped a # from the previous day, despite hydration being better than average. I managed a good swim workout (with 30' bike commutes to/from pool), and my best 30' run since last year (8:35 pace), but I knew today would need to be "easy", which I defined as another 30' run, and a 20-30' weight room session. Sure enough, when I got up today, I'd lost another pound, and I found myself snapping at my wife at breakfast. And I see my TSB is the lowest it's been since the last day of my week on Mallorca.

    Just for fun, here's my PMC since Sept 5, 2017:



    Some interesting points (CTL/Blue, ATL/Purple, TSB/Yellow):
    • During my "Build" for the Mallorca camp, which was basically Zwifitng every day, my TSB varied between -12 and -37. Then I took five days completely off while touring Barcelona, and the TSB rose to 23 - a "taper"
    • During the Mallorca week, TSB dropped 50 points in 7 days, with a ramp rate of 10. I handled that just fine.
    • Another five days off touring in Spain, reaching a peak TSB of +30 (solid line)
    • Since then, the past three weeks, finally starting structured training (HIM plan), TSB has dropped 51 points, with the current Ramp Rate of 4.4 (within my target range of 3-5)
    • I'll take it easy today, then try to increase my daily TSS from its current level of about 110-120, to maybe 120-130, in preparation for my Colorado Camp week June 2-9.


  • Thanks @Al Truscott both excellent articles. My ramp rate for the past 28 and 90 days is 7. Does that mean that my training has been fairly consistent? BTW, my bike ramp rate is the biggest (which makes sense, since I've been running consistently for months, but really ramped up my bike since Jan). And, I do feel I can handle more bike TSS than run TSS, without getting into dangerous territory. 
  • I missed yesterday, yesterday 2nd work commitment. I watched the seminar after it was over.  "excellent" My comment on fatigue is pretty similar.  No doubt running is most tough on me in recovery .  Hydration seems have made most help and stretching. Eg maybe 20 minutes prior to run and 30 minutes after if I have time.    I do back off on speed workouts.  I double my hydration, and try to get good rest. 
  • In regards to HIIT training, I train with RTB here Covington Wa.  These work outs are three days a weeks and maybe 2400-2800 yards.  I should wear a monitor but to  not.  I also get hiit training on indoor cycling. I can tell that running a 10 K or 1/2 marathon HR up to 156 bpm, with my AT around 131 on the bike.  with a 156 HR, very hard to sustain that for long. As my suffer score raises.  
  • I mentioned that I use RHR and HRV as metrics to aid in determining accumulating fatigue. My Apple watch tracks this automatically--not sure I would bother, otherwise. As @Al Truscott said, these metrics tend to lag behind others, although I can see where they do, historically, line up with other metrics that show fatigue. I use them more to validate that I am, indeed, tired and in need of recovery.

    In regards to HIIT training, we discussed VO2 max intervals and high heart rates. I think it was @Joe Hallatschek who mentioned that he got too close for comfort to his max hr. I'm wondering what everyone thinks about HIIT intervals and heart rate. How long should the intervals be, how many, how high should heart rate be (especially by the last one) in order for the intervals to be effective, but not detrimental?
  • Great discussion!  I am going to be implementing a lot of what I heard!  I have definitely slowed in the recent years, but a big part of that is not training consistently over the off season (last year it was a foot injury) in addition to getting older.  As an adult onset runner, I responded very well to the TH work in OS back when I started with EN 5 seasons ago, but I hear everyone about run durability.  BUT unlike Al or Derek, I'm not sure if I'm ever hit my best pace...it may have been the 2013 season at 49.  I am no where near that now, but am very carefully doing the "cruise" type intervals at my new "normal" which is super slow.  Feels hard though, and HR is where it should be so I think I'm doing them right.  I've just started these due to the injury and building slowly back into running.  My A race is IMKY so I feel there may be a touch of improvement by then.  

    I had a great weekend at Boone and my TSB of -44 (and mood and life stress) demanded off days the week after.  I had 3 days off (I was pure evil on Friday! My poor family!) but am feeling the bump from that week on the bike now and running TSB in the -20's.  @matt limbert was kind enough to help me set up my training peaks dash so I can harness the data to learn more about how I am training and I am very grateful!  I am also adding the am hr, sleep metrics, weight and general feeling.  This is all new to me, so still a steep learning curve.  Everyones input was very helpful!

    To what John spoke of, as an adult onset runner, triathlete and athlete I really don't have the same "knowing" of suffering that those of you who were into some form of competitive sport as younger folks.  It is still a struggle getting comfortable being uncomfortable.  I have that ability on the bike much more than swim or run, but the TH stuff definitely helps.  If I can avoid injury and use TH or VO2 (maybe attempt Pauls CRUSH work on the bike) for the mental side I think I'll be heading in the right direction.  Tricky tricky tricky!  Is it the body telling me NO, or my mind.  I think if I feel fatigue, I may attempt what Sid does, one week run, one week bike intensity.  

    Thank you all for such wonderful info!!!! 

  • Re: HR and HIIT...I happened on a post I made five yrs ago about training/racing in the heat. That reminds me that doing intervals in temps above ideal (to me that means any condition in which there is sweat on your skin...could be above mid 50s while running out doors, and for sure inside on the bike, even with good fan), HR WILL rise above "normal" for that RPE in attempt to increase peripheral ,cooling systems to maintain safe core temp. See post here:

    http://bikrutz.org/triblog/?p=1187
  • edited May 17, 2018 6:54PM
    @Trish Marshall: I have lost the willingness to suffer over the past few years. Recently, I believe that Zwift has cured my aversion to bike suffering, and yesterday, "just for fun" I did a max-effort broken 200 Freestyle (ie 2x100 with 10s RI). I am certain that it "changed me"... at least a little! Unfortunately, running to the point of suffering is no longer recommended for me... but probably not necessary, given what I've heard on this thread. Fitness is in the muscles is accepted by Team EN. The duration of HIIT intervals need only require coordinated (good form) contraction of anaerobic fibers long enough to spend some time at high contractile force and build lactate... so that the enzymes need to eliminate it are stimulated. Changes occur in a few sessions, but require continued training to maintain. The total time each week working at this level varies between individuals, (genetics), and decreases with age. I suspect that it's more important to maintain HIIT year round and in each sport, than exactly how many minutes one can "build up to."  Personally, I would not ever put in more than 15 min/week at true high intensity... strides lasting 30s, 30/30's biking, 25's-50's swimming. These sessions need to be mixed in with an optimal training load, and full recovery is harder than it appears at first glance. The ability to "back-up" your workouts week-after-week will always provide better training stimulus that inconsistent "breakthrough" sessions. Its important to remember that maintaining muscle strength with age is also accomplished at sub-anaerobic levels. The ability to "suffer" in endurance sport is almost certainly better accomplished through 20 min intervals just below lactate threshold. I'm much better at 70.3 than 140.6... and that's because I really don't do all-out, well-executed bike sessions at 5-hour power (well below FTP) like many of our KQ team mates recommend! Now that's true suffering, and will clearly maintain strength and speed with aging. 



  • In regards to HIIT training, we discussed VO2 max intervals and high heart rates. I think it was @Joe Hallatschek who mentioned that he got too close for comfort to his max hr. I'm wondering what everyone thinks about HIIT intervals and heart rate. How long should the intervals be, how many, how high should heart rate be (especially by the last one) in order for the intervals to be effective, but not detrimental?
    @Alicia Chase - yes, you got it. When I hit my Z-5 now, usually on LTHR intervals or extended VO2M, I back off and go by HR and not power. 

    As far as what intervals, it's usually whatever the EN program has laid out in terms of LTHR (raising the ceiling) or VO2 (raising the roof).  I did read in Joe Friel's book, "Fast After 50", on page 157, the suggested "dose" for high, moderate, and low and it see,ms every advanced training program hits the high-moderate for VO2M, LTHR, and Aerobic threshold (ABP). So, "we" seem to be on the mark (for biking).
  • I have this tremendous guilt when I don't do the prescribed workout.  Maybe that's part of my problem, I'm not taking enough recovery periods during heavy build blocks.  I'll start watching this closer.  I guess maybe my ears won't fall off if I take a day off now and then.  Also, I'm major into restructuring my body.  Down 21 lbs since April with many many more to go (currently 253).  I don't feel like I'm losing much muscle, but then don't really know what that would feel like.  I loved the round table and always learn tons from your guys.  Thanks a lot.
  • I have this tremendous guilt when I don't do the prescribed workout.  Maybe that's part of my problem, I'm not taking enough recovery periods during heavy build blocks.  I'll start watching this closer.  I guess maybe my ears won't fall off if I take a day off now and then.  Also, I'm major into restructuring my body.  Down 21 lbs since April with many many more to go (currently 253).  I don't feel like I'm losing much muscle, but then don't really know what that would feel like.  I loved the round table and always learn tons from your guys.  Thanks a lot.
    David, first of all, CONGRATS!  21lbs down in AWESOME!!!

    To your comment about losing muscle, have you considered getting a dexa scan?  It shows your body fat percentage as well as lean mass, and where you carry that fat. It's not horribly expensive and you can even get bone density data as well.  You can compare your scans ( I bought a package of 4 for a year, so quarterly) to see where and what % of fat and muscle has changed.  If you lose muscle (we don't want to do that ) in a quarter, you could adjust your meal plan accordingly.  I know losing muscle is NOT our goal, but leaning out sure is.  Just a thought....
  • @Trish Marshall:

    I'm no where close to get a dexa scan.  Probably Tallahassee would be the closest.  I do have a smart scale and actually its shown a slight increase in muscle mass over the last week.  Now down 23 and counting.  Anne Rollins at core diet is amazing.

  • An additional perspective: I now am in a place where HIIT means something different.  When racing the iron distance, I was fairly good at maintaining a lower HR for longer training sessions and racing and was very proud of my 5-6 hour trainer rides. However, I have developed some exercise-induced tachycardia over the past few years.  That means if I go really hard when my HR is already up and try to push that last little bit (like on a FTP test in the last few minutes) my HR will suddenly jump to about 220 and I will have to back off.  I have had the whole workup and an attempted ablation and my Cardiologist has cleared me to train but I still occasionally get the runs of high HR if my TSS stays too high or I train in the heat, particularly.  Obviously, this sucks in a race (especially during the swim).  Interestingly, it seems to correlate more with total TSS rather than TSB.

    As a result, I have had to really change the way I approach training.  I can do short HIIT interval sessions (like the Thursday workouts in the get faster plan) but when my HR starts creeping up within 20 beats of my Max, I have to back off.  I can also do longer intervals of high intensity but if I my HR is within 20 beats for max for more than about 10-12 minutes without a break,  it happens.  I can do longer workouts (long rides etc) but somewhere around 4.5-5 hours in my HR starts creeping up to a point where I just have to back off.  When I am running or biking steadily and my HR gets that high (like on a long climb) the measure of how much longer I can go really seems linked to how fast my HR recovers.  The interesting thing to me is that my legs (and arms for swimming) really never seem to get as tired or sore after workouts and are no longer the limiting factor for me.  As my daily training volume increases up to the TSS levels for a race build, the runs of high HR become so frequent that they limit my training.  With increased recovery and alternating hard interval days with more rest days in between, I can almost eliminate the tachycardia.

    I guess that my point is that training stress affects each part of the body differently.  The particular limiting factor for each person may change as we get more mileage on us.  Knowing the metrics that your body can (or used to be able to) do is very useful in modifying the plan so that you can remain active going forward.  In my case, that seems to mean no more iron distance races, no more racing in the heat, and a modified training plan.  I can live with that.
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