Sheila Leard - Santa Rosa 70.3 report - what to use -Pace-HR-Watts-RPE

Sheila Leard

Hey Team - a discussion got started in the GroupMe Chat on differing views of which metrics to use when racing. It's interesting to me because as a Boomer athlete I am watching my HR stay disconnected from my watts and pace. For example my HR is reading Zone 3 sometimes 4 on the bike and run but my watts and pace are reading zone 2. When this is happening my RPE is up  but I can handle it if I'm hydrated and fueled. 

Last week at Santa Rosa 70.3 I wanted to experiment bringing my watts up at the end of the bike and start the run with the same HR. It didn't work mostly because I had to wait 3.5 hours to start the bike because of a canceled swim. My bib# was high and I was staged at the end. When I got going I had to pass packs of very slow riders. So from the get go I started with a high HR. I could see that I was burning matches but had I not took the risk of letting HR go up I would have been stuck behind packs of riders and cars.

Here is where I am wondering which metric to use. HR is not guiding me very well.

* I didn't race the EN way and took a risk of exploding. In the end I rode as best I could with watts given the playing field and ran by RPE. I felt my high HR and thought I might pay the price. RPE was high but manageable and I did fade the last 3 miles.

 Joe Freil has an interesting article on this topic. Many variables play into this, fatigue, overreaching,sub-par aerobic fitness. 

Power data:
Zone 1-2 62.3%
Z3, 18.9% 
Z4-5 18.8%
HR zones are not visible - all in Z3-4. 

BIKE data

____________________________________________________________________________________________

RUN DATA.

Pace:

Z1-2 65.8%  

Z3-4  33.1%

HR 
Z4-5

Derrek Sanks

@Sheila Leard - That's very interesting. Part of me wants to say don't be concerned about HR and just use pace/watts and RPE. Many times data puts limits on us. Generally, if your HR is at Z4 for a Z2 effort, that can only be maintained for so long, unless you have been training like that for a while. As you know, there are many factors that can affect HR. 

Have you factored in heat? If your HR zones are based on FTP and running tests that were done in cooler temps, that would explain the higher HR. When I race/train in warmer temps (90+ degrees), my HR is easily 10-15 bpm higher than in cooler temps and I usually I switch to using RPE and HR and try to ignore watts or pace. 

Also, has this been a common occurrence throughout your training/race rehearsals or just during races? If you have similar data in training rides/runs, then it's not an issue during races as your body is used to operating at a higher HR.

I use every ride and run to learn/feel/know at xx pace/power, my HR range is xxx-xxx, and it feels like x RPE. After a while, it's easy to know when these 3 data points are not aligned and there's usually a reason why (e.g. heat, fatigue, change in fitness).  Knowing these will stop any panics if a piece of tech fails during a race.

Lastly, IMHO, using your EN FTP/5K test results, either run by HR or pace, not both...don't try to get the calculated pace zones to match the calculated HR zones. In other words, if you train by pace then focus on pace and just note (and know) what your HR is at various pace zones. If you run by HR, don't worry about pace but note your paces for the various HR zones. Same for the bike. I train by power and don't use the calculated HR zones, but I know what my HR should be for each power zone based on my training. 

Tim Sullivan

This is a great discussion. Currently, I use power and HR (and RPE) for the bike, and I use power, HR, and pace (and RPE) for the run. Like @Derrek Sanks discusses, I keep metrics on all of these during my training. With running, I run at different times of days, on different terrain so I end up with conflicting pace numbers but my power numbers are the constant across different runs. Regardless of how cool it is, or how hilly it is, my power numbers give me a great idea of the power that I can hold in different zones. My pace varies wildly across some of these different runs but my power output (measured by Stryd) is similar.  

For the bike on an IM, I use HR to just back off as I don't want to explode later on.  I think I let my HR get a little higher than most others but I know what's comfortable and not comfortable for me.  For a Half IM and less, I don't use HR very much at all. If anything I use it as a whip.  That's how I use power as well.

For the run, I look at my power output (I know what numbers are easy, medium and hard and I know what I can hold for various periods of time based on training). As I run at the power, I will glance at HR to make sure its not completely wacky. If its really high at a low power that might get me to think about a change in strategy if its a long race. I only look at pace if I'm trying to hit some predetermined time. For my marathon last Saturday, I just looked at my mile splits to make sure that I was "on time" for my goal time. If I would have been running off pace (instead of power and RPE) in my marathon, I would have ended up quite a bit slower. When I decided to pick up my pace in the marathon, I increased power to a number that was a little higher than I would normally run in training but still was ok with me that day according to RPE. I also knew how much pain I could endure based on the time left in the race and my previous training. For the last 6 miles of the marathon, I used power as a whip as my HR at that time was high and wouldn't have been much help.  I use 10 second average power to look at.

In the end, I think using each of the different metrics is helpful but power the most stable. As I get more tired, the power becomes more of a whip. In short races (less than 2 hours) I use RPE and just push as hard as I can

Trish Marshall

I think a big contributor to your HR on both bike and run was the stress of the race delay combined with time of day.  No way would you have been riding and running that late post swim, so temps must have been higher for your entire race.  I don't know when you do your usual training (time of day) so perhaps that was a bigger influencer.  I know if I have a long run and start at 9 my run will be much smoother than starting at noon.  Just heat of the day can make or break my run.  

Sheila Leard

@Derrek Sanks thanks your thoughts. I look at all my metrics when training. Sometimes I'll  run by pace and forget HR to see how that affects RPE. In a 70.3 I can get away with higher HR which is what I think happened.  Clearly running early on fresh legs makes a difference. Sounds like if I do the RDP then I will need to run by pace and let HR be in the background. I really need to get run durability up without injury. 

@timsullivan Your success with running with power is intriguing. I'm starting to see a trend in my power on various terrains and foot turnover. I have enough data to apply some running zones to power. If I got this right you established a power that you could run with in the marathon  knowing that it would be the pace you needed to hit time goals?

@Trish Marshall definitely some stress from the delayed start. Also, i surged all day just to get around packs of riders. It's so good to reflect on a race and realize later how it played out. 

Alicia Chase

@Sheila Leard I agree with what you and others have said, that a higher sustained HR during an HIM is not necessarily a run-killer. More than likely, the temp on the run and possibly some lagging fatigue from your IM had an impact. I know you were planning to push the bike (maybe not in quite the way you ended up having to do), but I think you got some good take-aways to apply to future racing. I’m thinking I’m going to have to get a Stryd for my birthday  Power is a metric that doesn’t deceive, it is what it is and probably a better metric than pace/HR/RPE to help you make decisions on race day.

Tim Sullivan

@Sheila Leard I know generally what power typically corresponds to a pace (changes slightly based on terrain and how much elevation gain/loss). I also have a good understanding of what my power zones are and how long I can maintain a certain power. As an example, I knew that 215 watts for me is about a 7:50-8 minute pace and that I can hold that power for longer than a marathon.  I also know that I  can hold 230-240 watts for about a half marathon. Before my last race I had only run that power for about 10  miles.  As long as I stayed near this power, I was fairly confident I would not explode.  The only reason that I checked my split times is that I wanted to make sure I would hit my BQ target. Knowimg what power I could handle made me more comfortable running faster than what my "pace" alone would have told me as my pace was faster for this race due to the slight downhill.  If it would be a slight uphill you'd have to make a hard decision about whether or not you could hold the power required to hit your goal "pace".  Same concept as biking. For most runs I don't have a goal pace so I don't have to correlate.

Al Truscott

A thought...everybody will have an individual ratio of how "fit" their cardiac vs skeletal muscles will be. If you are an older, life long athlete, it's probable the limiter will be striated, not cardiac, muscle. So RPE, watts, & power might work better than HR. 

EG, I have a resting HR of 38-40. I NEVER look at my HR during the bike leg of a race. On the run, I'll glance at it, but use RPE as primary tool. I,ve got a Stryd, but keep forgetting to switch it race shoes. Gotta add that to the pre-race checklist, I guess.

however, during training, I record and rebiew all the data I can get. Then, as @Tim Sullivan says, knowing how those #'s all correlate with eac h other and RPE becomes second nature.

I'm a big believer in the "free your mind" school for acheiving succes on race day. Trying to corral myself with numbers seems to inhibit the free flow of my inner competitor.

Sheila Leard

 Tim Sullivan said:

  If it would be a slight uphill you'd have to make a hard decision about whether or not you could hold the power required to hit your goal "pace".  Same concept as biking. For most runs I don't have a goal pace so I don't have to correlate.

Tim when you run hills in training or a hill in any race do you use power? I know  I have to back off effort to keep power down on hills. One thing I noticed in your marathon race report was SPM was quick. In the 178 range. That also affects power.... the whip!

Al Truscott said:

A thought...everybody will have an individual ratio of how "fit" their cardiac vs skeletal muscles will be. If you are an older, life long athlete, it's probable the limiter will be striated, not cardiac, muscle. So RPE, watts, & power might work better than HR. 
I'm a big believer in the "free your mind" school for acheiving succes on race day. Trying to corral myself with numbers seems to inhibit the free flow of my inner competitor.

Al - this is a good reminder that strength training is important. If I have this right striated skeletal muscle is limiting my ability to rely on HR. i need more mitochondria!

Tim Sullivan

Sheila Leard said:

Tim when you run hills in training or a hill in any race do you use power? I know  I have to back off effort to keep power down on hills. One thing I noticed in your marathon race report was SPM was quick. In the 178 range. That also affects power.... the whip!

Yes. I use power everytime I run or race (especially on hills). Stryd is great for making sure you don't go to hard on hills. As you know, going up a hill takes way more power than flat running. It's way more power than I initially thought. I can see why people blow up in a race that has hills when they run just by pace.  I also use power on the downhills to try to hit my target power. That's not always possible as it may be too steep, but at least I know how hard I'm working. Power really helps manage effort over a run.  I think it also gives you a more accurate CTL compared to using pace.

I've been working on my SPM over the last year and is still a work in progress. I do increase cadence slightly when running faster. It used to be a much bigger variation between my slower paces and quicker paces. I think about a faster turnover rather than running faster. I notice that when I have more SPM, the effort to run faster doesn't seem to be as much as a slower cadence.  Same when going uphill.  The higher the cadence, the better off I am (at least that's what it feels like). 

Sheila Leard

Thanks again Tim. Keeping SPM up coming off the bike is my challenge. One metric  Stryd has helped me with is Spring Stiffness. But this could be taken to another forum.