Daily caloric intake: Buckets vs food for fuel/recovery
I know that a lot of your are deep into your season, and don't think about this much because it is automatic. Well this is the beginning of my comeback so I starting again with fresh eyes.
I am curious what people are doing in terms of everyday nutrition.
I recently listened to a podcast where a nutritionist who works with a lot of ultra runners described her " bucket" approach. "Buckets" are basically 4 hour windows during the day that you have allotted a certain number of calories. Use them however you like in that window of time. So let's say you wanted to consume 2000 calories a day and you wake at 6:00AM. Your buckets are 6-10, 10-2, 2-6, & 6-10 and you consume 500 calories each bucket. Taking all 500 at once or split them up.
Does anyone use this approach? Thoughts?
Comments
@Patrick Large for me it depends on where I am in my season... I'm only ~1.5 weeks away from my "A" Race, so for the past 3-4 weeks, I have been eating literally ALL DAY every day because I really feel that I'm already at race weight and don't want to lose any more for fear of losing muscle. I have a rule when training hard which is "Never be hungry". But, I also eat VERY "Clean". I eat higher fat, lower carb, Gluten light, NO RECREATIONAL SUGAR, No Alcohol, but in general it's JERF (Just Eat Real Food). But recently I have added in a LOT more (non-processed) carbs, things like sweet potatoes, white rice, etc.
When I'm not in the peak part of my training, I have done some Intermittent Fasting, which for me is dinner at ~7PM, then no food again until ~noon the next day, doing this ~1 or 2 days per week. I still get in the same amount of calories on these days (not Calorie Restricted), but giving my body that ~16-18 hour window of Fasting. Maybe ~1x per month I'll do a full ~24 hour fast. There's a lot of research that shows non-calorie restricted, Intermittent Fasting helps promote cell autophagy (essentially recycling bad or damaged cells by killing them). There are a million different places Google will point you to if you want to learn the nitty-gritty details of this, but here's a super simplified, "beginner" type of article on the subject:
If you're a super high carb, lower fat type of person, Intermittent Fasting might seem a lot harder because you constantly need that sugar/carb drip to keep from feeling like you are "crashing" if you go without eating, but if you become a bit more "Fat Adapted" this becoomes easier and easier. And jsut like training to run or ride a bike for long periods of time, it's hard when you first start "training", but gets easier and easier (mentally) as you do it over longer periods of time.
@John Withrow Thanks for the reply- I like your "Never be hungry" motto for heavy training cycles.
I also stick to JERF. I take it a step further as well with my kids. If they ask if they can have something to eat "prepackaged" I ask them to read the ingredients. If it's food they can eat it, if it sounds like science homework, throw it away.
Higher fat/lower carb is something I have done over time, but the RECREATIONAL SUGAR's haunt me in my dreams.
I have also head of intermittent fasting. I am not sure if it's a FAD or not but I've read about the 5:2 ratio. For 5 days you eat normally and then for 2 days you restrict calories to like 600 for those two days. Not sure how that fits into a training block, but...
To be VERY clear, on the days I Intermittent fast, I do NOT Calorie restrict... I don't ever actually count or track calories, but I'd "Guess" my daily caloric intake is probably ~3,000 or so... So on the days I essentially skip breakfast, I add those lost calories back in with a bigger lunch, more afternoon snacking, and/or a bigger dinner. On on the rarer occasions where I do a ~24 hour fast, I eat like a king for dinner when I do break that fast. For me, Intermittent fasting is less about trying to lose "weight", and more about trying to have "more efficient" cells. Many people do use it effectively in conjunction with Calorie restriction for weight loss, but I do enough training that my body finds it's correct weigh (without calorie restriction) as long as I have my "eating right" switch turned to the "ON" position.
And, FWIW, here's my testimony on Recreational Sugar:
@John Withrow I got it. I get your method (madness) now. thanks for the clarification.
@John Withrow I read your "recreational sugar" earlier today on the train and I was glued to the story. Pure gold! I'd like to discuss this more with you.
My cell is 646-831-6791 if you ever want to chat...
I'll defer to whatever John or Sheila Leard say on this thread ... but in my own experience, I find that workout timing, and the demands of either fueling for, or refueling / recovering after, ends up being the more important driver of nutrition timing in my day.
@Patrick Large - I'm listening to that podcast now, Science of Ultra. I don't use the bucket approach like she explained but it sounds the same as my breakfast, lunch, snack and dinner meals. I don't restrict each meal to specific amount of calories, even when I'm tracking calories to lose weight. I try to eat mostly clean, eat in moderation and don't restrict calories. Usually by eating clean, in moderation and being aware of the calorie content of the foods you're eating, logically reduces your calorie intake. Using an App like, "Lose It" provides good insight into how many calories you're consuming and burning and I use that App 1 or 2 times a year for ~2 months.
Also, I adjust the timing of meals to be 2-4 hours before workouts depending on length and intensity of the workout.
I wish I had the will power and motivation to even try giving up recreational sugar. ☺️
@Patrick Large I've had some success with that. I am My Fitness Pal fan (logging food isn't for everyone– I get it) but for what it's worth you have the option to name your meals by anything and I use time. As someone who can plow through an entire days worth of calories by noon (Italian mom 😁) it helps me pace myself for the day. You're might also start thinking about your macro ratios throughout the day – more carbs around workouts - proteins and fat elsewhere. Oh and have a conversation with @John Withrow and then tape his photo to your scale - success is inevitable. 🤣
@patricklarge I also listened to that podcast. My concern with using buckets of calories is that it promotes calorie counting and less intuitive eating. Many folks find the bucket of calorie approach a way to trust they are not overeating. I believe what Nancy Clark is trying to convey is that spreading equal calories out over the course of a day is a way to not under-eat or overeat. From the posts above you can see it works for some people. Not everyone trusts themselves to be an intuitive eater.
There is some good science behind intermittent fasting. There are various forms of IF. I encourage folks to create 12 hours between dinner and breakfast. It re-sets hormones and is useful for those who might have insulin resistance. However, athletes with double workouts and random training times cannot always follow eating in timed windows. Athletes in heavy training sometimes have a need for more discretionary calories ... or recreational calories. It might be that snack before bed that gets them through the night to avoid stomach growling.
It's important to not make eating a math problem. Athletes have energy flux, meaning one day you need more calories than another day.
What I do see quite often is not enough protein at each meal. It doesn't have to always be animal protein. if you want to do buckets this is where I would go. We know the body can process protein spread out over the day vs all in two meals.
lastly - one has to look at what training cycle they are in. As John said - don't let yourself get too hungry ... no 'hangry' athletes.
@John Withrow thanks for the offer buddy. I have a similar story to you. I was 230lbs and got to low 180lbs for races. I usually hang in the low 190's, but for the pat 6 months have battling injuries and lack of motivation. When I am on point the weight comes off, however I can easily balloon. (see pic below)
Thanks for the input @Dave Tallo
@Jenn Edwards In general I look at macro nutrients. I make sure I take more protein, good fats, fruits and veggie, etc
@Sheila Leard I agree 100%, this should NOT be a math problem. I do at times count diligently calorie in/Calories out, to get myself "back on track". I will need to looking into IF. Not sure it's wise on a recovery day or a hard day.
I have a (kinda) similar story to John's. I was a sloppy 230LBS+ at my heaviest. I say "sloppy", because while at University I was 125LBS and solid as a rock. I was hours in the gym and ate chicken, broccoli, and rice every meal. Anyway, when I lost the weight, I just set strict rules and didn't break them. Portion sizes were normal and NOT super sized. I had one plate for dinner and NOT 2nd's and 3rd's. I worked out hardcore. At that time boxing was my thing. My wife and I also went almost full vegetarian. We ate meat maybe 2 times a week, and when we did, it was a very small portion of the plate.
So thanks all for the input, please share more if you havent already.
Here is a pic I keep close at hand. Always reminding my self what side of the middle I want to be on.
I forgot to put it into my last post-
Of course most of us are (at least I am) an all or nothing guy, so in that spirit...
I will-
Weigh in on Sunday night so I have a baseline weight. Then starting Monday (yes cliche, but...) I will cut from my diet: Bread, Pasta, Alcohol, and any food with added sugar (i.e. recreational sugar).
Like @John Withrow said, it will be painful but worth it.
And when my three children as me (like they always do), "are you doing this to be skinny?" I will give them the answer I always do, "No- I am doing this to be FAST!!"
Dang @Patrick Large you really were a "fat kid"... Don't go back there again!
I regularly remind my kids to look around at all of their friends parents "look" or other adults my age and then make sure they notice how hard I workout and how I focus on what I eat. I don't "diet", it has just become a lifestyle for my wife and I and I hope our kids absorb some of that through osmosis.
But I also agree that "just to be healthy" isn't a good enough of a reason for me. I also need a significant race on the Calendar so I can be healthy and lean in order to be "Fast"!
Oh yeah- and also cut down on the cheese. 😲 I have friends who have cut out nothing but cheese and have lot a massive amount of weight.
@John Withrow For me telling my kids "I do it to be fast" is more for mental health issues. I want my children to be healthy and happy and if for them that means being a little plump, I am OK with that (as long as they are healthy). My wife and I try and avoid the words: diet, fat, ugly, etc especially around my daughter. I'm a bit heavy right now but still sexy as hell 😄 I never want my kids to think they need to do something to "look better" but rather feel better! So when I am dropping weight it is NEVER to be beach ready, but to be FAST!
My family is pure torture.- but zero pieces consumed :) yes I win!!!
Patrick, I may be late to the party on this but sometimes too much is just that. I totally agree with JW in the JERF aspect. This is something that I went to a few years ago and went away from protein shakes and bars throughout the day. This was a help. Keep some things in mind are:
@Eric DePoto Thanks for this- I agree with #2 100% "Don't have "Cheat days." These lead to more cheat days." And I really don't even have cheat meals either. I usually eat very tasty nutrient dense meals. I don't calories either, I just make sure that each meal is "complete" and not 3 plates full.
@Patrick Large that sounds like you're doing it right. I know I can tell when I am not eating my best. Because of work, sometimes I get those cheat meals in and when I am home more often I notice the difference.