The Value of Zwift Racing vs "Just" Intervals to Improve your High End Power Outputs
Here are some of the stats above...note the Gray is my Race Prep / Build into Kona for this year; the Purple is the Race Prep / Build into Kona from Last Year.
- 5 second power: + 125W
- 12 second power: + 126W
- 30 second power: + 100W
- 2 minute power: + 65W
- 5 minute power: + 35W
- 10 minute power: + 34W
- 30 minute power: + 38W
- 90 minute power: - 11W
- 180 minute power: + 8W
I recently raced (9/4/2018) and earned another lifetime best FTP bump up to 352 watts. Normally my FTP in season is between 330 and 340, but this time of year (in Race Prep) it's closer to 320 to 325.
My hypothesis is that a combination of Zwift Racing and more overall Cycling Miles (mostly on Zwift), have really boosted my bike fitness.
A Timeline
- Back in Spring 2017 I started zwifting. I eventually settled into racing on Tuesdays and Thursdays with Some of my longer rides done indoors as needed. This included either (or both) the long ride and the ABP ride.
- After my race season, I sat down and planned for 2018. I knew that running More than 35 miles a weeks wasn't sustainable for me year round. I have a history of getting injured on the run in Winter. So I decided to focus on Cycling.
- I created a Basic winter week where I would race twice, do a Tempo ride (Hang On) and longer rides on Thursday AM and Sunday AM. My weekly mileage Averaged about 250 Miles per week. I started doing back to back races with crazy @Tim Sullivan Around this time as well.
- Then I went to a few incredible training camps for some volume and 😱 outdoor riding.
- Then I have moved Into Race Prep With an increase of swim and run volume to accompany by cycling.
Some Context
You can tell I liked Zwift a lot this winter. I rode more in those weeks than I did in my race prep build for three IMs. In fact it was some of the biggest cycling volume I have ever done.
My Chronic Training Load was higher than ever, but since 75% of it was on the bike vs 50% bike/50% run in traditional winters, my body handled the work pretty well.
Now in Race Prep
The strength I have developed in racing has translated to my overall cycling fitness. There is plenty of bandwidth to suffer, break, recover and repeat WITHIN a Bike workout. I simply had never gone here.
Now I have no problem repeatedly burying myself and racking up the TSS.
Not only has this been FUN -- aka Teammates, Discord talking, GroupMe smack talking, etc. - but I am stronger for it.
Final Thoughts
I personally like racing more than structured intervals, and use the TSS and power data from each race to make sure I am doing my best, vs a predicted plan.
I know this isn't for everyone, but gains are gains, and as your fearless leader I wanted to share what I have found!
Comments
Impressive work Patrick. It s a really interesting point you make about the increased ability to "go there" - even if you're one of those whose v02 max doesn't correlate to FTP (ie the rising tide only raises some boats), the shorter durations might be seen to contribute to the skills required to do the work to increase FTP.
I'm any case, I hate that you're now in the 45-49 AG.
THIS is what I mean when I say "Leading from the Front".....putting it out there by example, posting the data and getting it done consistently everyday. Maybe that has something to do with the little "5X" emblem shown above.
Zwift is definitely a game changer for most of us. Safe, convenient, ability to work harder and longer AND actually have fun while doing it.
Congratulations @Coach Patrick !
@Coach Patrick kudos for putting your data out there for us to review and think about! Second @Shaughn Simmons points. Your post is of tremendous value as I think about this past season and what I need to do going forward in the out season, especially in how I use Zwift, to have a break through year in 2019, my third with EN.
I only have one question @Coach Patrick ... how many tires did you go thru? 😮
No, seriously this is some really good information to think about on how to change things up in training.
Some less in-depth data to back up this thesis. this past winter, the first with Zwifting for me, proceeded in three distinct phases, with 3-4 weeks of intense cycling, followed by 3 weeks or so of skiing, rinse, repeat several times. the first time thru, I was learning the game (literally), the second I was doing mostly interval workouts, and the third, was mostly racing. Then, in the spring, I had several episodes of high-volume cycling, and spent my summer doing a bunch of sprint, Olys, and a couple of IRL bike TTs. For me, it's not a question of reaching new heights in my FTP, but rather in stopping the steady progression of PWs I've been getting the past few years as the inevitable decline sets in. A typical example was a race ten days ago, where I was at the 75%ile (34/132 OA) compared to 67%ile (51/156 OA). My swim and the run showed not much change. Here's a snapshot of my PMC for the winter (purple is ATL, blue is CTL):
The first part (before 12/18) was when I was learning how to Zwift. The next uptick was when I was doing mostly intervals. The last rise, the 3-4 weeks before 4-17, is when I was racing multiple times a week. My ATL rose significantly more than when I was just doing the intervals.
It may depend on one's mentality. It's probable there are some people (I'd put Coach P and myself in this category) who respond positively to competing with others, and work harder, for along time, than when trying by themselves (even surrounded by others who are "working out".) And for those who might not have as strong a competitive nature, but want to improve, well racing on Zwift can help with that, IMO, as it proves the competitive push (or pull?), without the direct contact with others which might be subtly inhibiting.
If you are in this game to go as fast as possible, and to do as well as you can in one or more specific races...then the best way to learn how to race is to ...race.
I agree with your conclusions @Coach Patrick ; including the one about @Tim Sullivan being crazy
I'll extend the hypothesis with this: the combination of Zwift racing and the same overall cycling miles will also increase bike fitness
My data points from this year compared to last year:
Beyond the 1-minute figure I'm at about the same as last year, but I haven't had nearly as good a season; bike volume this year is lower than last year. I haven't even done that many Zwift races and I've noticed a benefit
Interval workouts still have their place, but you can't beat the gains from getting dropped in a race and having to crush the power to catch back up to the group. Then, keep going with the pack to avoid getting dropped again
gains are super impressive, I have seen you get MUCH stronger in the
back-to-back Zwift racing. I remember last year when you had trouble in
back to back races, not so anymore. Yes, its still super painful, but you
just keep going now
You say "The strength I have developed in racing has translated to my
overall cycling fitness. There is plenty of bandwidth to suffer, break,
recover and repeat WITHIN a Bike workout. I simply had never gone here.
Now I have no problem repeatedly burying myself and racking up the TSS."
I think this ability to "suffer, break, recover and repeat" over an
extended time is going to help as much, or more, than just the power gains
you have made. I have found this ability to be a major help to me in the
races (running or biking) I have done this year.
The back-to-back-to.. racing is much more than just a single interval
session or workout. Instead, you are asking your body to quickly recover
and do another workout after just completing a workout that killed you
You have also done all the races, regardless of whether they are hilly or
flat. Each type of race has its place in replacing a structured workout.
Some are more sustained efforts, while others are more short surges.
I think your long term power numbers are somewhat misleading. I bet if you
look at some of your data from back-to-back races last year and compare it
to similar races this year, you will find that your power in your second,
third, ... races is much higher. I wouldn't be surprised if your power in
your second race is 50-100 watts higher this year.
Adding to this, is the crazy amount of miles you've been able to ride this
year both inside and outside. Your engine is crazy strong now.
THIS is the thread I have been most interested in. I am particularly interested in how Zwift racing is effective as compared to just doing intervals, is there any way to really make the comparison? EG what would Coach P look like today if he just did his RXd intervals instead of Zwift races...
I see a definite hurdle in getting to the races. Last spring I did a few races, in fact my all time high 90' power and 60' power was during the one Hang on ride I did, so clearly there is a point to be made there. I have been struggling with my recovery, but I am focused on getting into the racing and pushing harder than ever as I build for my all in KQ attempt next year. Zwift will be an important arrow in my quiver. Especially because I am building my life to have a trainer and bike available at all times in all three of my residences (My house, Jill's house and HoffHausVT)
I've seen from my own perspective that I've got to get a baseline of fitness developed before getting in on a race. Clearly I am near that hurdle this week. I am planning on following your lead & tim's lead by ramping up to successful races 2x per week plus a longer ride like the hang on ride, etc. Then moving to the concept of back to back rides.
It would be great if @Coach Patrick, @Tim Sullivan or @Brian Hagan could post links to the best learning sites on racing Zwift they've found here or in the Wiki for those of us who want to learn more about the different races (ODZ, KISS, MGCC, etc) and how to understand what they are. The biggest issue for me, is understanding what I am getting into. I started a race last week, thinking it was a 1 hour effort only to realize it was a 100k event!
Thanks all!
On top of what @scott dinhofer asked for, I need to see the costs associated.
Can someone break down the one-time and monthly costs, with zwift, discord, etc.
I already own a trainer (Cycle Ops Fluid) and have a PM (powertap p1 pedals, dual-sided).
aaaactually ... because (1) it's a slow afternoon, and (2) I'm a contrarian, and (3) because I'm coming off a debate about Opportunity Cost earlier this afternoon here at work, let me go against the grain for a minute. In the spirit of enriched discussion. And fully acknowledging thread post #2.
There's no doubt that this Zwift stuff works, and your input and outcomes through this stuff is incredible. These are the type of year-over-year gains that one might expect to see from a person moving from Novice to Junior Varsity, or JV to Varsity ... but for someone with the length of time you have spent in tri, and endurance sports in general, and the existing fitness you brought into it, the gains are jaw-dropping.
My thread-shitting question, though, is this: does it matter to the objective ahead?
Although we're now a cool stuff / tri team, let's say the prime objective is carrying max event-specific fitness onto Kona (or some other long course dance you're using to qualify for 2019 Kona). Is the work you have done directly transferrable to improved race outcomes in long course triathlon? I kinda poked at the same issue when there were some early season EN threads about supra max bike work happening, but my point here is how closely do your gains track to riding a bike fast for 5h? And, how do these track to the best possible preparation to running off the bike? What has me pausing is the question if there is opportunity cost - say, forgoing an extra 10 miles of quality running per week, or the recovery that basically pivoting your entire power curve by 15 degrees - as a result of torching fasttwitch matches frequently? Similarly, while this work did incredible things to raising v02 max, what if you're one of those 40% where v02 doesn't positively correlate to FTP? It's kinda the paradigm that a few people have noted with concerns about BBS models being applied to actual races: they call it best bike split, not best run after bike split. What worries me (or I'm probing) is what if this represents exactly what we see in chart #1 ... someone who is very very good at Zwift, but compromises the big picture. (*Although that might be answered in the "+38w at 30 mins").
Don't take any of this the wrong way - I'm your biggest fan and I will be regretting this post as I watch you disappear into the horizon somewhere around the 'Ross Dress for Less' section of the bike in a few weeks. But I do want to zoom out the discussion to the bigger picture of how this, or zwift-specific improvement, sits in the larger puzzle of IM-specific improvement.
answering @Scott Alexander - cost of Zwift i think is $15 per month? check as I don't know for sure.
trainer, I'd get a direct drive trainer. there are a lot of used Kickr's that pop up. I am trying to negotiate on one now. should be able to find a 2012 version for $500-600; 2014 version for 700-850. Last year Wahoo had a pre black friday sale of refurbished units for 450 or 550, I can't recall exactly.
discord is free.
Seems like @Dave Tallo in part is getting at, and what we all are curious about is this: does increasing your FTP and shorter power maximums translate to riding a faster ironman bike split AND a fast run split? The latest trend being maximizing our five hour power. As @Coach Patrick and @Tim Sullivan (and others) have demonstrated by racing hard on zwift, you can increase your ability to push hard, recover and repeat that multiple times over the course of one or more zwift races. In other words, burning multiple matches, and developing the ability to burn more matches. In ironman racing we are taught to not burn too many matches, to never go over X power for more than X duration. What if, by racing multiple races in zwift over weeks of training we push that match number? Can we then burn more matches in an ironman race without the worry that it will cause harm down the ironman road? Or can we then push that power number up a hill to more than 110%, 120% or ?? of our goal race watts or more frequently without worry about harming our bike and run split? If we are training our ability to push hard then recover multiple times in a given period of time maybe we need to rethink or readjust the match burning theory. Curious what others think.
As the thread morphs towards the value of raising top end bike numbers to performing well in a 112 mile TT followed by a marathon...
First off, there's nothing special about the work done on Zwift, per se. The value of Zwift racing, IMO, is that I (and clearly many others) am able to do more work than I otherwise would have via other means, whether intervals on Zwift, riding with a local tri club or fast friends, or even a lot of low-intensity volume on my own. This results in higher top end numbers than I would otherwise get via other methods of training.
I think Dave is correct about questioning opportunity cost. Being by now what amounts to an EN retro-grouch (someone who believes in the old ways, despite others' success with the new), I am firmly committed to the value of getting the hard work done first in an annual or semi-annual training cycle, then slowly descending from there with less intensity/more volume being the general trend.
Specifically, a higher VO2 in work intervals of 15-20 minutes enables, a few weeks later a higher FTP when working for 30-60', which is easier for me to do in Zwift than anywhere else. Then, getting towards longer course work, hitting 80-85% of that FTP for 2-3 hours at a stretch (Outdoors, in the mountains or on lonely exurban roads), for a month or two should, ultimately, enable a greater ability to hold 70% for 5-6 hours without getting unduly tired. That's our classic theory here, and I'm sticking with it.
It is important to keep the top end greased, however, so some serious intensity needs to be thrown in weekly. For me, in the summer, that has been via doing real triathlons on the open road against local competition. I've done 3 sprints and 3 Olys in the last two months, working my tail off up all the hills, slamming one gear harder when on the flats, and avoiding coasting when going downhill. Because it's a triathlon, I then have to run if I want to maintain the place my monster bike has given me. I may not go as fast as I would if I just ran around the track for an hour, but I am certainly building race capacity to be able to hold on for 25'-55' after an all-out assault on the bike.
So to parrot what used to be called the Kool-Aid here, work works. The best work is hard work, metered appropriate to the distance, putting fast before far as the season progresses. And racing, whether inside a video game or outside IRL, is the best work there is. Don't be afraid to race, it will bring out the best in you.
Now, @Tom Box, I get scared when I see someone talking about burning matches on an Ironman bike. One of the first cliches I learned, about 15 years ago, was "You lose 3' on the run for every 1' you go anaerobic on the bike". And matches don't have to be shorts spells of VO2 level work, or even FTP work. It can be going for too long @ 5-10% above the ideal watts for your ride. The two DNFs I've had both resulted from that very mistake. Again, the Kool-Aid sez: The Lower the VI, The Better The Run. The extreme pointy-end - the top 0.1% - may be able to get away with burning matches on the bike due to competitive needs. The rest of us - even those in the top 1% - probably can't and shouldn't.
@Al Truscott appreciate your views and experience. I'm not advocating that race strategy. I was just asking the question based on @Tim Sullivan 's statement.
I think this ability to "suffer, break, recover and repeat" over an
extended time is going to help as much, or more, than just the power gains
you have made. I have found this ability to be a major help to me in the
races (running or biking) I have done this year.
First off some great work Coach P.
I like Dave's questions on the correlation to 5 hour power and trade offs.
As for Dave's question on ROI. This is an amped up version of the OS in my mind and a good return especially for Coach P given his run previous run injury and need to limit the mileage. The basic week outlined is only 4 sessions. Is it for everyone probably not but for sum who can withstand the intensity it will push up your FTP and as we have seen there is benefit in that.
I think the challenge for someone with as many years in the sport as coach P is to find new stimuli and zwift did that not only on the intensity front but also the weekly mileage. Also with the introduction of the 200 mile rides it will be interesting to see what this does for your 5 hour power.
As @Tom Box mentioned this type of work will help on those short steep hills and even some longer climbs, like putting up some extra watts on the climb to Hawi. I'd anticipate Coaop P's bandwidth for bumping up power on climbs will be slightly larger and the ability to recover riding his IM IF .72-73 will be much better. Additional should he want to tactically push the bike a bit at some point this ability will help tremendously.
Not sure there benefit for everyone for everyone, particularly with out the camps and the big days riding. As As @Al Truscott mentioned not sure you would want to do this and the EN race execution is great. What it might allow is for the athlete to go a little further in to that TSS orange/red zone 300+ for an IM and run well. Say you add 10-15 TSS form 290-305.
My experience goes back to my figure skating where we did maximum 4.5' programs interspersed in there was 12 or so jumps requiring the anaerobic power and some aerobic capacity. The aerobic side of came from training 24 hours a week typically in 1 hour blocks, Sunday's was usually from 12noon to 6:15 with 4 or so 15 minute floods of the ice. I was tested twice on a treadmill for Vo2 may, scored 64 and 66. Not particularly great when you look at the number for 50K skiers for instance.
Anyway I was recruited for high school cross country because we did not have enough runners and I had some lungs. I typically ran one qualifying race and cities. My pacing was usually bad but given my background I could typically back off recover and finish strong in a 6K race(don't recall my times I seem to have around 22' in my head). I never did anything longer than 6k and my 2400M around 8:30 if I recall so nothing great from a runner's standpoint.
That ability to recover, train more was definitely there when I had the top end VO2 max, even when I returned to triathlon in my 30's, now I'm 46. How this would have helped by 5 hour power not so sure but it did help to rinse repeat and continually train day after day.
Ok - so maybe a revision to the original proposition of
a combination of Zwift Racing and more overall Cycling Miles (mostly on Zwift), have really boosted my bike fitness.
with competing hypotheses? Maybe:
a combination of Zwift Racing and more overall Cycling Miles (mostly on Zwift), really boost my performance on Zwift.
or, from Cioppi,
Ride your bike, ride your bike, ride your bike.
After seeing what @Coach Patrick has been able to do with his FTP this year after being at this game as long as he has, pretty much validates the theory. after short block of Zwift racing myself earlier this year, I do plan to incorporate this approach going forward.
I think "some" people left to themselves to do an interval of 95-100% week after week could "allow" themselves to come in at low end of that range. I think that "some" people racing on zwift would most certainly push themselves harder and more often.
Of course the big question whether doing intervals or racing is not how much can I do but how much can I recover from. Pretty important not to dig a hole that one cannot get out of. More is more , until it isnt.
Lastly I believe that I have a finite amount of " Mental Racing Matches" and it requires a lot to go there. Granted going there over and over again, recovering from, makes it easier to go back and do it again , up to a certain point. I need to be careful to - Not leave my race on a zwift game and to save that race for the real thing.
@Coach Patrick I'll bet if you look in WKO at your FRC over the same 2 time ranges, you would see a big bump there as well. Functional Reserve Capacity (FRC) The total amount of work that can be done during continuous exercise above Functional Threshold Power could come in handy even on a long race pushing over smaller hills at above FTP.
I was a bit pre-occupied the past couple of weeks to jump in here, but I'll play. I'd consider myself a well trained cyclist and had my "peak" year in 2014 when I basically trained non-stop after IMLP in 2013 straight through until IMT in 2014. 2014 was my "All-in" year which culminated with my trip to Kona after qualifying through the XC at IMMT. 2014 also put a ton of strain on my family because my training volume and intensity was off the charts...
This year, @Coach Patrick bullied me into getting Zwift and I went all in with it. I REALLY enjoyed Zwift racing and literally didn't do a single structured "FTP Interval" the entire OS or IM build. All I did was Zwift Races, and the occasional group ride or longer training rides. Often I did Back to Back races and sometimes that meant ~2-3+ hours of "racing" on a random Saturday in the winter (compared to 2014 when I did back-to-back Sufferfest rides on TrainerRoad and one workout which was a 3x20' at FTP). I'm Convinced the "Gamification" of Zwift had me loggin an extra ~10 mins here or ~15 mins there as I was trying to get to a "level up", or finish a lap, or get to say an "even 40 Km" before I stopped... But add all of these little extra minutes over the course of the season and I think it gave me a lot more "time" logged at lower intensities. And the many many races allowed me to slay myself, recover and slay myself again. I believe this helped me build both my low end engine AND my ability to suffer. What I noticed after like ~10 months of this was that my HR was A LOT lower at almost all intensities this yr and after any hard effort, it fell like a stone, quickly. I think part of the allure for me was that it was simple a "change of stimulus" from many years of steady FTP intervals... Part of it was simply that it was fun and engaging and came at little cost to my family or health (unlikely to get hit by a car on my Zwift machine, although I did fall off my rollers a few times in the early days).
Anyways, when I compare my 2014 (Breakout Year) numbers to my 2018 (Zwift Year) numbers, it's night and day. And if you ask my wife or kids, they'd say (intuitively) that my bike training impacted my family A LOT LESS in 2018...
Summary- I DO think Zwift helped my overall bike fitness (hard to imagine my front end power going up so dramatically without simply being stonger at any duration on the bike). I do believe it helped my DEEP fitness (after logging several ~3+ hour rides in the winter that I had never done before). I do believe it made my training more interesting (and I got my competitive race juices flowing A LOT this winter and spring and summer). I do believe it made my overall matchbook much thicker. And I do believe it meant that when I would have previously burned ~2-3 matches because my HR stayed elevated for a longer time after a spike, now it means I can burn a single bright match, and then my HR comes down quickly so I didn't slow-burn a subsequent match.
I do not expect to see the same gains in yr 2 of Zwifting as I do believe a lot of it was simply a change in stimulus to something my body has never seen/done before (after ~8 yrs inside of EN). Just like I think someone who has only done Crit racing (or Zwifting) would benefit from a many months long block of steady and organized FTP intervals. With that said, I plan to utilize Zwift and Zwift racing all winter and in my year long build to Kona in 2019.
Jumping in late to this very interesting conversation! @Coach Patrick I’d be very interested in looking at a power distribution chart of yours. I’d love to see it in 10 or 20 W buckets or even by zone over the time periods you have above. What percentage of your time are you spending at or over threshold? Ive become very interested in some of the research on polarized training with recommendations of 80%+ time Z1/Z2 and 10-20% at or over FT. How close is your training to this type of work?
i tried Zwift for a very short period of time before reverting back to the more structured TrainerRoad. Maybe it’s time to try again?
I haven't used Zwift yet, but I found that when I was riding with a somewhat-aggressive roadie group 2x/week, even while on my tri bike (yes, they let me! haha), I was stronger all around and had one of my best seasons. YMMV
Whatever motivates you to get out there and to work harder, which might not be the same for every person, more power to you!