Ultratrail Run Durability
@Coach Patrick @Francis Picard @Gabe Peterson @tim cronk @Peter Noyes @Scott Alexander @Tim Sullivan @Jeff Horn @Steve boer And anyone else who has this experience!!
How do you guys adapt RDP (or maybe just pace/zones) to the trail? We all know that pace on the road does not equal pace on the trail (especially if trail is technical at all).
I am now on RDP Phase 2 and I am working on how to structure my "long runs" and keep true to the plan. Long runs are 1:10 with this structure:
MS: 70' as 35' Zone 1 (6:02 - 6:08 min/km), then final 35' as @ B-A-A TRP (5:36 - 5:42 min/km) (Below-At-Above Total Run Pace) in 3-minute increments.
But on the trail what exactly is my TRP and hoe does it relate to my trail TRP? Do I switch to RPE? Should I retest on trails and get my "Trail Zones". Should I not worry about it and just run?? For most of my runs I am on the road so we are talking apples to apples, but I like to get into the woods on the weekends.
I'd love to hear your thoughts and your experiences. Thanks in advance!!
Comments
works well for some trails or parts of trails you can keep running on but
in general trails will give you more work compared to the road. I wouldn’t
worry about it.
Thanks @Tim Sullivan Usually on the trail I am always RPE especially since this is new to me. So I would equate TRP to ADL or "all day long" on the trails.
Definitely RPE.
For the trails, you've got to focus on too many things (rocks, roots, trees, etc). This technical aspect is way more important than hitting a specific pace. Learn to lift your feet off the ground with each stride, or you're going to end up on your face. This is especially true if you're a "shuffler" runner on the road.
I think of trail running as long sessions of fartlek training. The terrain dictates your pace more than your running fitness.
@Patrick Large
The way I actually see RDP is more time on your feet specific and get serious mileage in my legs (my goal after the 3 months RDP is to be above 55 mpw). Then I can jump into the 50 mile training plan.
To be more specific to trail, here are my hacks :
1) the 1M intervals are done with at my road pace for weeks 1&2. Weeks 3 & 4 will be a 3X1M intervals
2) the 30 seconds strides are done uphill only
3) 1hr run is changed to 2X1M intervals but uphill again
4) the last 1hr run is changed for one big run being over 3hrs and ALWAYS more than 1000 meter elevation gain (you see my 2 last Friday run on strava) and increase my elevation gain each week. last week I went for 1100, this week was 1400, next week will try 1200 (will be a rest week)
To come back to your question, runs 1,2,3 are at my road zone and for 4) - I just ignore the pace, its totally to build endurance there.
Also, I don't use HRM as I consider this gadget as a limiter
I focus on time over distance as a rule. RPE, HR, and my breathing (just how easy or hard) are my keys for adapting what I had done on roads vs trails. I also usually am doing mostly TRP effort. If I want to add "push it" sections, I will use uphills (at least if they aren't too rock/root littered) and sections I know are pretty flat and smooth. I am usually more worried about ankle or foot damage, so I default back to TRP if it starts to get hairy. That's my approach.
+1 for using RPE instead of pace and time instead of miles. On trails, pace is just an output like speed on the bike.
This far out from you race, I'd suggest mostly sticking with the EN reverse periodization approach to focus on becoming a faster runner. Jason Koop summarized it in his book best as "do the least specific things far out from your race ." Most trail runners ignore building their speed, which you can capitalize upon.
@Gabe Peterson so you dont agree with my approach ? - what would you change to it ?
I dont know yet that much about ultra/trail yet, just that for me the road RDP approach isnt appropriate for my next year goals, but I might be wrong!
@Francis Picard that looks like a good approach closer in to the race, maybe 2-3 months out. Check out Koop's book Training Essentials for Ultrarunning. @tim cronk turned me on to it. This is the most scientific approach to ultras I've come across.
@Gabe Peterson Thanks so much for the reply. I am 100% doing the EN way. As my race is in June, I am working through RDT 1-3, then the Marathon plan, and then just about 3 months out start on the 50 miler plan.
Would you suggest that at this point I don't even go into the woods / trail unless it is easy rolling trails with zero technical sections or major elevation changes?
At this point, I need to remember that all I am doing is building a base, getting strong, getting consistent, staying fit, etc and not really training for anything.
I just bought the book you suggested... it will arrive tomorrow and will be good reading material for the train ride to Paris next week.
@Patrick Large trail running is super fun, so I'd never recommend cutting it out. It's so much easier to get motivated to run when it's fun. I'd suggest doing the easier run days and long run days on the trails. I usually use these to build aerobic capacity by keeping my HR at or below MAF. Do the structured interval runs on road, track, or treadmill.
Thanks for the comment @Gabe Peterson
I have recently started Koop's book and I like the idea of least specific far out from race. I have the EN way... this far out you are not training for the 100KM, you are trying to get fast. 3 months out you are specifically training for the race but not at this point.
Quick update after reading this book.. sorry for the delay as I directly jumped into North - Scott Jurek and this thing is addictive =)
the changes made to my RDP program are as follow:
1) no more crazy ass over 1000 meter elevation gain long run - have to admit I miss these climbing run
2) I combine uphill run with the mile repeat, I am actually sitting at 3X1M since 3 weeks, looking to increase in 2 weeks to 4 mile repeat.
3) Really focusing on hard recovery and durability
4) the long runs were done on trails until snow arrived.. will see this week what the trails looks like, hopefully people ran on it this week end :)
@Francis Picard and everyone else on this thread...
Has anyone used Koop's method for speed?
(3:00 hard 10/10 and 3:00 recovery) X 3-5
I would guess that this would replace EN's mile repeats.
I know this thread is a bit old, but I’ve been off the EN page for awhile and just catching up. I just started my trail running this year and have my first ultra in May. I’ve done three trail races and love it!
I was wondering something similar about how to pace the training runs and came up with... on the trails, it’s RPE. No way to try and hold a certain pace. For my races, I’ve been trying to go hard and for training trying to go easy... ADP, all day pace.
I’ve settled on a plan of doing my mid week runs on the road, per pace plan, and weekend long run on trail at ADP. That feels good so far. And in my N of 3, my pace seems to work the same in the trails as the road... everyone passes me in the first third while I warm up, I pass a few or hold steady in the middle, and I pass a lot more in the last third. Still relatively slow, def bottom half of the field, but I’m having a lot of fun. And trail runners seem pretty laid back.