Power-Indoors vs Outdoors; tri-bike vs Road bike
I know this has been discussed before, just can't seem to find the thread. I am curious what most people see in their power variations on different types of bikes and situations.
It's my belief that my tribike has me generating less power than my road bike (but I may have that reversed) and I DO see a jump in power when I move outside from the drainer.
the corresponding question is if people tweak their inputs in TrainingPeaks for CTL calculations per the different power output scenarios?
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Agreed on both accounts...tri bike less than road bike and outdoor greater than indoor.
I started to tweak my TSS for those differences a few times, but it was an admin nightmare if I recall.
Maybe it'd be easier in WKO4, than in TP online or other apps?!? Hmmm...Paging @Dave Campbell. 🤨
I've only had power for the past season, and I only have a tribike, however my power numbers seem to be higher on the trainer, when compared to outdoors. In my brief research, this seems to be the opposite from most people experience. I wasn't able to get an outdoor FTP test completed, so I don't have a direct comparison, but I did have a hard Olympic distance effort, that seems to confirm lower power outside.
I plan on analyzing this more this outseason, and if this holds true, I plan on using indoor FTP test results for my indoor trainer intervals, and then get that outdoor FTP test in, so I can dial in more for a race.
I don't currently use TraningPeaks, so not sure there.
Indoor feels harder to me for the same power (felt like 10%+ difference in power for same RPE this week), but hard to tell how much of that is physical vs. mental since there are so many differences — outdoor distractions, cooling/hydration, changing position, coasting, comfort. I don’t adjust the FTP/TSS, but do keep in mind that it is going to be harder to hit the same numbers indoors.
For Training Peaks:
You can re-calculate a TSS for a individual day or date range.
Click on the performance management chart.
In the upper right corner there are 3 horizontal bars. Click on them.
That will open a new window, with the option to "Re-calculate TSS"
Leave the the CTL and ATL parameters alone. (These need to be consistent
for the TSS math to work out the same...)
Click on "Re-Calculate TSS"
Another window will open and ask for a date range for the re-calculation
and ask for what you want to re-calculate with HR, Power, Pace etc.
This may or may not be worth your time.
5 hour ride, with a FTP set 15 Watts high was off by 15 TSS points.
2 hour ride, was off by 6 TSS
1 hour ride, off by 3 TSS
This could be in the noise depending on how accurate the rest of your zones
are....
You can also validation / cross check your TSS for the workout by checking
your hrTSS vs TSS.
TP will compute at HR based TSS and a Power based TSS for each workout that
has HR and power data.
It defaults to power based TSS.
If you have your HR zones and Power dialed in - the hrTSS and TSS should be
close.
To do the hrTSS v TSS check:
Open the workout.
Look at the TSS number. Click on the arrow next to the TSS value.
Chose hrTSS.
On Nov 2, 2018 07:00, "MIKE THEAD"
wrote:
[image: Endurance Nation Community]
@matt limbert , I was thinking along the lines of creating four different equations, one for each scenario, then adding them all back in together for the PMC. This could probably be loaded into the available charts to share, if it holds water.
Tri bike ride outside (identified potentially by tags like "tri" and "outside")
+ tri bike ride inside ("tri" and "inside")
+ road bike outside ("road" and "outside")
+ road bike inside ("road" and "inside")
Anything with "inside" would be 10% (as an example, everyone is different) less TSS. Anything with "tri" would have 7% less (example). So, the "tri inside" combination would be dung 17%, effectively.
Ta dah!
Disclaimer: this is based on my limited knowledge of SQL unions from work, so take it at face value.
speak. That would give the most accurate PMC. Although, I'd avoid it
because it would lead to many charts and variables to track - like a PDC
curve for all those scenarios.
IMHO There is nothing wrong with changing FTP settings in different scenario's to get a correct TSS. But you need to be careful which scenario. An indoor known FTP vs. an outdoor known FTP = OK..... Roadbike known FTP vs. Tribike known FTP = OK.... Sitting vs. AERO = not OK .... Hot vs. Cold = not OK.... Windy vs. Not Windy = not OK... watts are still watts and yes there will be variables that control the output of those watts but we cant constantly adjust for those variables unless you KNOW the FTP of each of those scenario's.... For instance @Al Truscott will adjust his FTP when training in Snowmass high altitude based on his Known knowledge... In the end Matt Limberts example tells me its just not worth it since the end TSS numbers are pretty minimal... If I was in a period of going back and forth inside vs. outside I may just put in a halfway FTP between the 2 , otherwise just test and use inside or outside. Again IMHO In the end the FTP numbers really shouldnt be more than 5% apart anyway.
I think the same discussion can be applied to swim and run thresholds and actually matter quite a bit more. For instance my swim threshold with wetsuit is around 1:20 per 100 vs. 1:30 per 100 with non wetsuit.
@matt limbert you said ...
" You can also validation / cross check your TSS for the workout by checking your hrTSS vs TSS. TP will compute at HR based TSS and a Power based TSS for each workout that has HR and power data. It defaults to power based TSS. If you have your HR zones and Power dialed in - the hrTSS and TSS should be close.
Would this apply to running power as well?
I just checked my TSS for runs. All of my hrTSS are lower than my rTSS. So that tells me my Stryd zones are off. Is that the correct assumption?
Yes. They should be similar. Both are attempting to quantify your "cost" of
the run. At the end of the day which number feels like it accurately
represents the RPE cost of that run.
Other stuff to consider:
Did you do the Stryd Critical Power test to establish your power zones and
threshold power? Is your max and threshold heart current? Did you set a run
power zones in TP, otherwise it will use default power.
Shelia,
The easy and most accurate would be to race 5k, 10k or half with both power
and heart data. Then you could validate/update both.
Most of the WKO4 folks maintain different FTPs for trainer vs outdoors. They tag the workouts and do all the calculations for intervals etc based on an indoor vs outdoor set of numbers.
My numbers vary - very short durations (< 5ish minutes) are pretty close to the same... but I find it hard to maintain high powers for 10+ minutes on the trainer (feels 5%-10% harder). I'm not sure if it is mental weakness or leg weakness that causes my lower numbers on the trainer 😂
I do not see an appreciable different between my tri bike and my road bike with respect to power. HR is slightly higher on road bike (due to a more vertical position). I can carry more power for long rides on my tri bike - but that my just be because it is more comfortable for long rides.
I change my TP ftp throughout the year based on my fitness... and I do the same when I move to the trainer. I just enter an indoor number and let my TSS calculate as it will. I view CTL as more of a direction number anyway - weekly TSS means more to me as a guide for adjusting training load / build. With that use in mind, it is important that TSS is calculated consistently, so I shy away from adjusting workouts..
Thanks a bunch @matt limbert . Just this morning I was thinking of signing up for a 5K and 10 K to set more accurate power zones. I never did the CP test because I was concerned about a knee issue and running hard. But - my knee seems OK, and so I'm going to pick a few road races soon and then repeat in February.
Thanks again.
To answers Scott's call. My 2 cents. Back when I did a substantial mileage on my Tri bike, I thought my FTP was 230, when on my road bike was 240. Recently(last 4 years), I haven't ridden my tri bike enough to know. Prior to Zwift, Kickr, and my Rocker Base, I would have told you indoors was at least 10 watts less than outdoors. With Zwift races, my Kickr on a Rocker Base, and 2 big ass fans, I can say that there is no difference. I can now push myself as hard indoors as outside. I think from a physiological perspective, this makes sense. Do our muscles and cardio really care if you are in or out. Or does your mind limit the level of discomfort you will tolerate? With my Kickr and a course like Alp de Zwift, I can always find enough resistance to challenge myself to my limits. With my old Cyclops fluid pro, it was just harder to keep the effort up. Its just like my theory that your FTP is different at 90 degrees than it is at 65 degrees, I think there are many variables to consider. If planning a race, I'd sweat those details. For training, I'm not sure its worth all the admin to maintain various combinations. WKO4 automatically calculates a modeled FTP over the past 90 days of workouts, whether indoors, out, etc. When it moves more than 5 watts, I adjust my FTP setting.
I have become too lazy to constantly change my FTP in WKO depending on out vs in, tri vs road, even though it only takes about 30 seconds to do so. So I have been using a standard FTP across all platforms for CTL purposes (except when training at altitude). I discount that FTP by about 5% when planning for races. But then, I've always been more of a SWAG guy than a data geek.
All that said, last winter when I was Zwifting a lot, my FTP rose substantially in that mode (Road/Indoor), so I did raise my FTP by 10% to recognize the difference. Again, being lazy, I use the estimates provided by WKO and Strava to guide that change, rather than continually testing.
Glad this thread invoked the discussion it has! Way more than I was hoping for but good stuff. I tend to swag my FTP during OS.. I know by HR and RPE if I've done an honest effort or not. When I get back from my Annual AL Camp extravaganza I begin a methodical repeated 2x20FTP test on the road on my tri bike. I typically get 4 or 5 weeks of data that really allow me to zero in my FTP..
on data and adjustments, I'll stick this in here. I've become friends a bit through WBR with Jordan Rapp who is one of the biggest data geeks out there. His parents live a few miles from me and we usually grab coffee and talk about some interesting topics. On data he showed me a lot with TP on the web version (what he uses) and one thing that stuck out is that he doesn't change his inputs at all. whether S, B or R. He wants to compare year to year where his fitness stands in absolute terms. He will sometimes change a range of dates to current values to see what that means in CTL terms vs current metrics, but then switches it back so he knows factually that he is in better or worse fitness than a prior year.
My bigger issue is that I always feel in lower condition on the trainer and then higher outside.. wanted to hear what other people experience and it seems that came through!