WKO4 - to buy or not
I've been happy with the use of TP online. I've never been a chart guy, more of a fundamental analyst. Even when it looking at stocks, etc. Trying to figure out if ME as a user will get value out of WKO4 since there is a big discount for it for this weekend's TP sale. (25% off)
As a point of reference, a few years back, I did use the full version, i think version 3.0
discuss - @Rich Stanbaugh @John Withrow @tim cronk someone else?
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Hi @scott dinhofer - Good question. The people that seem to get the most out of WKO4 are the ones that are willing to invest a lot of time to, essentially, learn two new languages.
WKO4 comes with a bunch of pre-packaged charts that are interesting, detailed, in-depth, etc... I don't use them. The real power of the software is that it has a proprietary scripting language that lets one ask whichever questions they would like to ask about their data. While it isn't too complicated, it is confusing because it is poorly documented, there is little in the way of tutorial that does more than scratch the surface and the only way that I have been able to become marginally proficient is to devote a substantial amount of time in the WKO4 forum learning from others.
The second language is the Coggan/Cusick/WKO4 language of exercise physiology. WKO4 was built as a tool that Coggan and others were using to support their research in exercise physiology. They have done some original work and they have incorporated / built up on a lot of classical work. The fundamentals of this understanding of physiology is built into WKO4 and the language used to describe WKO4. The forum is full of coaches that are trying to apply this new research to their coaching. So, I find, the use of the tool and the understanding of these physiology concepts are very closely linked. When I ask questions in the forums, the answers come coded in this WKO4 language in which one must become somewhat adept.
Lastly, WKO4 is pretty intolerant of data spikes, etc. When you first start using it, you can expect to invest some time cleaning your data in order for the tool to work.
I use it daily while training. I am super excited about the things that I have learned. I know that the concepts they are teaching apply to people like us and help make us stronger. If you like analytics, if data speaks to you, this is an awesome tool. If you rather someone figure it out and explain the relevant parts to you so you can go do the work, you may get limited use from WKO4.
I love it - but I am a nerd :-)
The beauty of WKO4 is its one time purchase, so yes its worth it.
Personally - Its extremely cumbersome, complicated, and difficult to learn.... Very much like the old Computrainer ... So much so I gave up. I could not even clean up the data spikes that @Rich Stanbaugh mentioned above. I couldnt even build a decent profile with pre-done charts/data with the right size font etc. So while I do use it occasionally it is very rare.
WKO is my go to app for PMC: CTL, ATL, TSB, etc. It also gives me auto calculations for FTP, time to exhaustion, stamina, L/R pedal balance, Stryd based run dynamics, and cumulative data. All this is using the built in charts. I also took about four hours to set up some additional cumulative charts showing elevation, time, distance, TSS etc by week for each sport and combined. I also value the ability to easily look at cumulative totals for custom time periods, like comparing the above data for builds prior to past IMs, the current OS, etc
I look at it more than anything else, which includes Strava premium. TP free, Final Surge, Stryd, Zwift, Garmin Connect, all of which I use for snippets of info at various times.
it's a workhorse. I do agree with Tom's analogy to the Computrainer, which I put up with 2007-2014 because, though clunky, there wasnt anything better. So for both, I invested frustrating hours to learn their nuances and hidden values. I am not an IT guy but I do think I'm smart enough to figure stuff like WKO out. And so are you. Just a question of, Do you have the uninterrupted time and tolerance to go thru the learning/creation process.
@scott dinhofer Not sure this will help but I still use WKO 3.0 and have not migrated mainly due to the time constraint mentioned around getting the value out of the software as I did not want to invest the time to dig in to 4.0. I'm not sure this is perceived or real as I've have not even utilized the trial version.
Not sure if you have some time this weekend to dig in to the trial version it might give you a quick snapshot on how useful it might be over TP online.
This thread did make me download the trial as I have also thought about purchasing 4.0 on a couple occasions.
Andy Coggan often makes the point that only 55% of peeps meet the "average" FTP=95% of 20 mins all out TT, following a 5 min TT etc.
WKO4 allows you to estimate your FTP based on your actual physiology, provided you do the 5 secs, 1 min, 5 min and 20 min tests (on different days).
This is one of the reasons I like WKO4, given almost half of all peeps don't meet the average paradigm.
I also use WKO4 to estimate my run FTP as well.
Scott,The most value I’ve got from WKO4 is “optimize intervals”. Of course this is most accurate only when you ride outdoors and push yourself. What I’ve found is that the intervals it gives me is what I’ve been able to do before and is safe and injury free. I pay more attention to FTP and FTP/FRC intervals since that are more helpful in triathlon. The other are more beneficial for road racing.
Apart from that, there is quite a bit of overlap between TrainingPeaks and WKO4. You also need to make sure that your data is clean and free from power meter spikes etc. otherwise the results will be skewed.
I've used Golden Cheetah for a number of years and found it sufficient for what I needed and still use it from time to time. Earlier this year I jumped in and bought WKO4 to do a few things versus pay for a paid TP subscription. (this reasoning to buy WKO4 was a major disappointment)
A couple highlights on each
WKO4 Pros:
WKO4 Cons:
GC Pros:
GC Cons:
Really it depends what you are looking for. There is not a significant difference between GC and WKO4 other than WKO4 has some easier to use charting (plus the charting library), metrics and is regularly updated by their developers. GC has some nice features WKO4 doesn't, and WKO4 has some that GC doesn't. One thing I was most disappointed about with WKO4 is that the charting did not 100% replicate the TP charts right out of the box. The WKO4 look, feel and measures were close but not nearly the same as I would have liked when compared to TP. You'll need to do some tweaking to get them the same. The one thing I think i was most disappointed about was that WKO4 doesn't contain the season planning and workout designer (the main reason why I bought it). You can only access those two things through TP which you also have to pay a subscription fee for as well. (Yes, I'm cheap) So to get everything you'll need to buy both WKO4 and get a TP subscription.
IMO, if you are just looking for basic charting metrics, GC works well enough and is free. But if you really want the season planning and workout designer and advance charting and metrics in WKO4. You'll need to go with WKO4 and TP.
Hope this is useful.
It’s funny ... after considering the responses, it seems more and more like WKO 3.0 is the solution for a lot of people.
@Dave Tallo WKO 3.0 is what I still use which was purchased back in the day through Coach Rich.
somewhere I have wko 3.0 as I had it a few years ago and wonder if contacting TP to reactivate that would be the way to go? that said, I feel like TP premium does what I want it to do.
as for season planning, do many people do as @Darren Freeman suggests and load all of their future wko's into TP as a season planning function? Kinda wish P@Coach Patrick had gone with TP over FS for this reason, but I am certain there was a cross marketing opportunity for EN that didn't exist on TP...
given how much I move around or change workouts for skimo, varying run mileage during a streak, etc. I am not sure the planning function would work for me anyways aside from seeing a projected CTL.
I've been a user of WKO for quite some time. There is an extreme learning curve but if you have the time, effort and patience, I think it's worth it.
I watched many of the videos provided and listened in to some of the webinars, all of which provide valuable insights.
You have to use it to get better. I've found that the best way to start was to use the canned reports provided and then learn to tweak them. I've combined charts, removed expressions I don't want and made the program my own over time.
I have a large dashboard with key metrics I look at weekly and then a bunch of charts I use for deep dives and then set aside or discard.
Data spikes are an issue and it's surprising how much bad data there is. In TP you just don't see it and have no idea it's there. I have created a chart that shows maximum 1 second power by week for bike and run which shows spikes quickly. I then have a filter by date that I use to figure out what day it occurred and then dive into the file looking at a chart and the sensor data. I can fix most spikes pretty quickly. All my power files have had spikes, both bike and Stryd power. There is a lot of dropped data at times, which I tend to ignore.
I find TP is great for simple stuff like duration and distance by sport. I look at the PMC stuff but don't rely on it because I don't think my zones are always set properly and underlying bad data makes me question the results. I don't think it's predictive and would never look at the PMC and say "I better take a day off"
In summary, I think if you are a techie with interest in a better understanding of data than provided by TP, then it's a worthwhile purchase. If you are expecting spoon fed information, so will be disappointed.