Zwift is cool. Has it made us better triathletes?
... or better Zwifters? It’s to have an objective discussion on this, I know, but I’d love to hear thoughts from those in and out of the program.
Discuss!
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Edit/erratum: “It’s hard to have an objective discussion on this ... “
I know it's made me a stronger cyclist...and in turn a stronger triathlete.
@Dave Tallo
I like to think I can step back and look at things objectively so here is my take. Kind of a big picture here.
Outseason 2016/2017: I was on the trainer with only a whiteboard, timer, and Garmin. I’m really glad my first OutSeason was “Unplugged” so that it doesn’t bother me to go back to training that way if need be.
OS 2017/2018: All in on Zwift, early 2017, for a few reasons. I really like the ability to make/download the workouts to Zwift so I can climb on the saddle and mindlessly hit numbers with the alerting beeps telling me to start and stop. This took out the extra effort of start and stopping my own timer. So Zwift just helps me be even more disconnected from my environment and just hit the numbers and listen for beeps. The KOM/Sprints add a little kick, but if I get on I’m usually just doing a workout per RX not Riding to hitting those segments hard.
The social component of Zwift Isn’t a big draw for me, I guess I should’ve went with the anti-social Trainer Road program. 🤷♂️ It has been a great tool for the team, no doubt socially/building community, and I have enjoyed time on discord while riding. And if the encouragement and/or draw of joining other people get them on their bike then it is making them fitter.
What I haven’t mentioned is racing on Zwift. I dont do it enough but a lot of the hardcore Zwifters can tell you all about it. You definitely push a little harder than you thought you could since your chasing, hanging on, or holding off your virtual competition the entire time. Races are the advantage to Zwift!
Finally has it made me a better triathlete? I really think it is neutral for me. Don’t get me wrong I like Zwift and enjoy joining in on some early morning rides, because if you sign up and people know your riding, YOU BETTER BE THERE. But I can also get some quality work done “Unplugged”.
My 2¢
I ponder this exact question. I have done a couple of races on Zwift as well as using it as a platform that is really no different than TrainerRoad when doing my RXd intervals from a training plan. for ME, I find that I will push harder in a workout mode than in a race. YES, in a race I've had some efforts that are definitly notable hard efforts, but is the overall workload being done at a higher level than when I am doing programmed intervals? I know the racers among us @Tim Sullivan , @John Withrow & @Coach Patrick would say the racing has made them stronger, I still don't feel the ability to go at full on 3x a week in wattopia. Is it a mental thing? maybe.
I've also started doing my RXd wkos much harder with Ps help. we've looked at my files and just said, FTP tested is fine, but you can do the first half of this 20' interval at FTP+15watts & the 2nd half at FTP+ 8 watts. I've also upped the ante on my 3' VO2 work.
That said, I know I can push hard in Watopia, I did do a race where I broke from a group on a hill on lap 2 of a 2 lap race and pushed hard to "kick em in the teeth" now that I had them down... the sailboat racer in me came out... once done with the NOS, I plan on retesting the concept on Zwift to see how it goes.
Important to note that how we train is part of what our goals are, and how
we (personally) achieve goals.
- 2007 Patrick was very serious and only intervals.
- 2019 Patrick is much more chill...
~ Patrick
ya, and I get it that 2019 Patrick's power curve is a good two or three inches to the right of 2017 Patrick (see pic 1, post 1).
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/comment/268307#Comment_268307
I've been doing intervals for the entire OS (now in week 10 of NOS) - last night I did the Tour De Zwift. 12k lead in + 4 laps of the jungle loop. I had two instances of "I went to hard" in the first 15' and swore I'd quit after the first jungle loop. the best place I saw before I coasted for 2 short downhills was 144. I dropped back as far as 277 (there were about 1000 people on the 'race'). I ended up doing loops 3,4 & 5 with essentially the same group of people. Interesting to me is that I saw similiar characteristics to a road ride, I am weaker on the uphills than the downhills.
I managed to work the one 3-4% "hill" harder on those last three laps, gearing up and getting out of the saddle for a couple of minutes, slowly moving up in the placings to around 180th. I had the guide of knowing what a rider that I compete against in real life having done the tour in the morning and knowing his time, I knew I was well inside of it (he usually crushes me on the run).
Net net, I learned how to "race" zwift by having a thick field and always having a group to work with, by knowing the terrain and how to work it to my advantages (pushing downhills) and learning how to hold on better (out of the saddle) on the uphills.
my tested FTP a few weeks ago (2x20) was 246. I've been doing intervals per @Coach Patrick in the 260-250 range and I rode this 27 miles in 1:07 with a NP of 231. Here's the TP file - so I am curious as to how people view the "work" of never being as high as i would be in an interval workout, but having a constantly hard effort for 1:07 vs sporadic efforts as I will be doing the following workouts in the next three weeks of the OS 2x20; 3x12 & 3x15...
This is THE discussion!
Great question!
Looking at just the platform itself and not including any mods/WKO's I may add:
So, in short, better Zwifters.
~Stark
@John Stark - hey starkles, there is only the P-Mac
So, what is a "good" triathlete? Is it just about being faster? If that's the criterion, Zwift is no better than any other training modality - Trainer Road, CompuTrainer, slogging away on the hills outdoors in the winter. Or even non-traditional methods like bike commuting, mountain bike riding, multi-day bike tours etc, etc. Anything that has me working hard, and increasing the workload moderately, progressively, will (and has) done the trick.
But I've learned that old dogs need new tricks. That list above is a 25 year summary of how I've trained on the bike for triathlon, in the winter, in reverse order. Last winter, and again this, the introduction of Zwift has re-invigorated me, and made it easier to be consistent in my training, after starting to get stale and tired with TR. And consistency in training is a core component towards becoming a "good" triathlete.
I'll also note that both my FTP and VO2 max (as estimated by Garmin) *rose* last winter, after falling steadily since 2006. I attribute that solely to Zwift. Whether it was the unique social interaction/video game model, or just trying "something, anything" new, I don't know. But I worked harder than I had in several years, and got the results in summer time races to show for it.
Sure, you can find yourself in amongst a bunch of roadies during a race, and fall prey to that mentality. But I tend to gravitate towards the climbing races, which end up being more like either FTP intervals of 5-60', or pure TTs, like short course triathlon. Besides, I've never done a bike race IRL, nor ridden with hard-core roadies, as distinct from the serious recreational cyclists I pal around with outdoors.
So my answer, for me, is that Zwift, at this stage of my career, has made me a better triathlete, compared to the alternative, which is either retirement or incessant diminution of my speed on the bike.
Will Zwift make you a better triathlete or cyclist? NO . Only you can do that.
Will Zwift the tool change your stimulus and possibly make you work harder? YES This will make you a stronger triathlete/cyclist. Note: I said stronger not better. I can't think of a better athlete than @Dave Tallo to introduce this change in Stimulus to help with that sub 10hr KONA goal.
Training vs. Racing on Zwift.
Training- real time with real people communicating on discord passes the time much better , you will also push the sprints/KOM's/or hang on if you are on one of the EN rides.... Interval training like on TR would be the same.
Racing- Burning matches, trying to recover, trying to hang, then pushing the finish , will work systems that have been dormant in traditional triathlon training, and could never be replicated as good as Zwift, except in the real world of cycle racing. All races start out really hard, this is opposite of what we have always done.
Getting used to doing a normal level of work after doing more than normal amount of work is a good way to address the way you @Dave Tallo will be riding the KONA course. Had a good recent discussion with @matt limbert about this and WKO4 does have a way to measure this.
BTW- it seems to work for @Coach Patrick , @Tim Sullivan , @Donnacha Holmes ... The jury is out on myself since I am in Ultra mode still but have been using Zwift as I am a believer.
@tim cronk ... hahahaha. Actually, this one isn’t about me! I’m genuinely curious because the Zwift thing has emerged as a movement as the sport has evolved, and I really do want to hear the discussion.
(But for my own purposes in the quest for Sub 10 ... last year was the “changing up the stimulus” experiment. Wrong stimulus, though!)
DAMN! @Al Truscott and @tim cronk , that is great!. Totally makes sense. Thanks for posting.
As a side note: Last month I was putting together an article comparing Zwift, Sufferfest and Trainer Road. During my research I tried to get comments from folks on their experience using Discord in Zwift. After outreaching to many, many, many people I found no one who uses Discord. Even local pro triathlon coaches. I also discovered that almost no one knew how to upload a custom workout. And I bet if I asked they wouldn't know what their w/kg. Very few even did any "racing."
I scrapped the article (for a few reasons) but came to the personal conclusion that the mass majority (I would guess upwards of 90%) of Zwift users use it for nothing more than basic winter base training. They may use a built-in WKO and follow it for a bit. But overall the users simply ride what World is on tap for them that day and adjust the course choice based on if the want much climbing or not.
I would love to see the raw data from Zwift, if it is available. Because I may be way off here. But I doubt I am.
So I guess EN folks (and probably a few teams globally) dig into Zwift and suck every last bit of knowledge out of it. But the masses are just along for the ride.
So does this make the masses on Zwift better triathletes?
@John Stark No, it does nothing for their progression as triathletes in that scenario. Similar to playing Candy Crush in an effort to get better @ Minecraft or Red Dead Redemption...
@Al Truscott - Prefect!
So then a better question would be:
"Zwift is cool. For those who actively manage their training, does it make you a better triathlete?"
In that case the answer would be: Maybe to Yes.
Sorry to be so chatty with this topic. With all the hype around Zwift the past couple of years and then learning that most of the folks in my sample size don't use Zwift for anything beyond the basics has had me thinking. This is the first chance I have had to talk it through. Albeit from a more global perspective.
That's it from me. :-). Time to now focus on JOS.
Happy New Year, all.
My n=1 sounds a lot like @tim cronk comments. I am more race than structured workout. I could “bury” myself in a traditional workout for a few weeks, but then I burned out. Just not stimulating enough for me to stare at the TV and try and continue to whip myself. Races changed that for me.
The social side also was a game changer for me. That feel of a group ride just made it more fun. Plus the accountability that comes with a group helped me keep going (or even just get out of bed) when I didn’t really want to made it key to me.
Basically for me, the structure of the program makes me work more often and possibly harder makes me a stronger cyclist at least.
@John Stark - chat away... it adds to the discussion and brings out more info. I'd say you should now do an article on zwift since you have the great example of what EN does, you can do quotes attributed to @Coach Patrick and educate others
It’s made me better. There is NO doubt I work harder in Zwift races then I would on my own. I really mix up race types to get a variety of work done. I will add short hard intervals within races sometimes to get that type of work done. My bike numbers improved drastically, my run became better after the bike. The only thing it didn’t help was my swimming. I know some people can work hard on their own but I find that incredibly boring unless it’s short intervals. It’s also really helped me know what I can recover from. Riding 5 rides/races in a row gives a good perspective on that. Like anything, you have to commit to it. If you are going to race then race. It doesn’t matter if you get dropped just keep going. You’ll get better. As we improve there are more and mores good riders on Zwift. I improve because I push myself and learn from better riders. I have always done better in that type of model. Plus I have lots of fun and to me thats a big part of it
I signed up fro Zwift about a year ago, used it for a bit and then dropped it. I found I was spending way too much time in the mid to upper zone 3 area just racing other people or pushing hard through the arbitrary climbs and sprints in each of the courses. I was thinking my season was going to be over in mid February if I didn't smarten up.
I came back at it agin this year and now do what @John Stark says everyone else does. I start when I'm ready, ride on my own, just grab the best looking flat course and ride until I'm done. I use it to practice IM TTing. I'm not that interested in the social aspect and wouldn't speed up or slow down to hang with someone. I actually like it a lot and think, for some reason, that Zwift just feels much harder and more realistic than TrainerRoad or just riding on the Kickr. Not sure why but I feel my IM pacing is getting much better over the past 6-8 weeks. For interval work I still prefer TrainerRoad.
When the weather gets a little nicer, I'll see if the trainer rides translate well to outdoor riding. Pretty sure I'm going to get a bump in watts at IM Texas this year!
If you just had your trainer or even trainer road, would you ever be tempted to do an extra ride. or race? would you stay on your bike indoors an extra hour or three if there weren't EN teammates on discord. Do you think you push harder because another rider or group is near by or you are pushing for a PR or a jersey? These all make me a better/stronger cyclist. That is our goal until we have our race specific phase when we work on being our best triathlon biker. As long as we understand that difference, this should be ideal for those of us that enjoy the zwift platform.
"As long as we understand that difference, this should be ideal for those of us that enjoy the zwift platform."
Well stated overall, especially this line! @Robert Sabo
Just started doing it regularly. The Apple TV kinks are finally fixed.
will see how it goes. But this seems exactly what I needed at this stage in the career. And for my current outseason. Getting the ftp back up there in a fun way.
as we know, I have been an indoor biker in recent years. Though mixing it up with outdoor cyclocross. And the rare mountain bike race and road criterium. And gravel rides. The zwift racing allows me the time saving and safety but still get the stimulus of the outdoor racing.
And nice to connect a bit with discord.
Will see if I can continue to build the ftp and not dig too deep holes.
Agree totally with @Robert Sabo.
Zwift rides can be a good way to teach you to ignore whats happening around while your doing your own thing. Most of my "on road" training is done by myself or one other person where its a lot easier to focus.
Amen Robert!
I find that I am WAY more consistent now than I was prior to Zwift. I rarely ride in th game to be social - I upload my WKOs and do them but now have started to incorporate other group workouts, tours, and other social ride events to add another level to the experience and I have got to say, I love it. I now even use discord, not to speak but to hear others working their butts off like I am. It is empowering and is the best alternative for myself personally to doing those social group rides of the Summer, in the winter. Now I can stay on track and be entertained along the way.
I am definitely going to be a stronger cyclist this year thanks to the work I am doing now and I would honestly NOT be putting in this time if I did not have Zwift to keep me excited about the ride. Training for IMTX 100% indoors is not ideal but Zwift makes it not only bearable, but fun.
Awesome discussion!
I just ran across the thread. Just bought a Cycle Ops MS smart trainer and I'm going to try and get setup on Zwift. Is there an Endurance Nation group on there? I'm not sure how to set this up. I rode with just the trainer today doing intervals and I can tell a BIG difference.
@Keith Shireman ... I’m not a Zwift user, but I don’t want your question ^above^ to languish: maybe Uber Zwifters @Coach Patrick @Tim Sullivan or others could answer? or @Al Truscott could send the link to some of his excellent “onboarding to Zwift” posts that he did in 2018?
Keith.
Check out this page in the wiki: http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/91/topic/Biking/Default.aspx#TOP
About half way down the middle of the page there is an entire section on setting up your Zwift account and connecting online with the rest of EN. There are workouts and races.
Read up and post your questions here:
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/categories/question-answer-central
I just completed my first workout with Zwift. I rode the London Loop not knowing what I was getting myself into. It was tough! I like the idea of doing all the hill work as if I'm outside riding. It will help with preparation in the upcoming races this year. I guess I'm just wondering if I should just take it easy or just continue jumping in.
@Keith Shireman , I think this is the thread @Dave Tallo means:
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/24156/zwift-for-newbies/p1