FTP Testing Question
Interesting Question:
I can no longer do a real 20 min FTP test because my HR gets too high near the end of the 20 min interval if I am really pushing it and I have to back off (or go into SVT). As such, I have not been formally testing for over 2 years. As a substitute, I have been using the estimated Critical Power from Golden Cheetah.
I found that I can do the OS and Get Faster Workouts (which I do in a rotation since I am no longer racing) and usually just bump my FTP a few points every time I am supposed to test. I find that I can usually do the workouts at the higher FTP setting and if not, after a couple of failed workouts, I just decrease my FTP setting a few points.
In spite of my HR limitations, I find that my legs keep getting stronger slowly. Is this a reasonable method or is there a better way to estimate FTP without the actual test?
Comments
I'm curious as to what constitutes too high of a heart rate. Mine feels like it will jump out of my chest at about 175 or so (compared to a notional 160 max for CDC an old fart like me).
To me there are a couple of reasons for doing an FTP test; (1) benchmarking - am I getting better? and (2) zone setting.
For benchmarking I tend to look at the entire power curve from somewhere around 1 minute power all the way through 5 hour power and I'm looking to improve where I can, when I can so It's not just about the 20 minute power number.
For zones, I'm pretty sensitive about the power I can generate over the 10-30 minute range and then IM power, so 5 hour power. If either range is going up in training, then I see that as an indication of increased FTP even though I don't test for it.
WKO estimates your FTP too, so I use that as a guide to see if my tested FTP is in the range.
So, you don't really need to test FTP if you feel uncomfortable as there are lots of other ways to estimate improvement in fitness.
@Ralph Moore - I haven't done a formal FTP test per se in several years. Over the past two seasons, I've been using three methods to triangulate my FTP
They all help me zero in on a number which I use for PMC calculation purposes, and to guide race day execution.
Up until about 14 months ago, my FTP was slowly dwindling from the 4.0 w/kg I held @ age 57. Frequent Zwifting through March, then bike camps and summer climbing reversed that and now I am holding steady @ 3.2 w/kg. I also think that some forced reduction in running with bike replacing it made a difference.
@Paul Hough From Age 50 >> 62 or so, I watched my max HR drop from low 170s to about 160. I don't test for max per se, but my Long Run zone is in the 118 range, half marathon zone is low 130s, and 5K is 145. From that I guess the HR max @ age 70 is now 158-160, so maybe it has plateau'ed? What I do know is that it doesn't get any easier, it just keeps getting slower and lower.
@Ralph Moore - having been misdiagnosed with a cardiac disorder, I also am curious as to how much is "too high?" I typically see most of my FTP effort intervals finish up in the mid 160s and sometimes, rarely, the low 170s.
Another way to do this is to back out your watts/KG. I know if I got stupid lean (I am trying to test that theory this year) I'd weigh in at 136-140. I know if I am at 280 watts outdoor FTP which is where i hope to get having maxed at 267 two years ago, and just missed my outdoor testing in 18 due to my bike crash. This weight/ power combination would put me at 4.2-4.4 w/kg. Pretty strong territory, so I know I am hitting the upper end of my personal curve.
Like Al, I also do what we call the SWAG method (Some wild arse guess) to determine my FTP at times. I did do a test a few weeks ago in the NOS, and the number seems right (246) derived from the 2x20(2) test and Coach has me pushing the early part of some intervals at slightly higher #s..
hope that's helpful!
@Ralph Moore - I have been following an approach similar to what @scott dinhofer mentions above.
For me, the more intensity I do on the bike the harder it is for me to get my HR up. Keep at it! Also, I am not too familiar with the GC FTP estimation, but I would assume it is similar to mFTP and WKO and should be fine.
Regardless, IMO, weather you do a test or estimate, you are going to be in the same ballpark. As long as you have a benchmark to measure your progress you should be fine.
@Ralph Moore OMG dont get me started on FTP again. You gotta read this thread, we are talking about something that doesn't even really have a definition anymore, at least a very vague flexible one that is mathematically derived or estimated. https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/25402/does-functional-threshold-power-matter-gcn-video-and-discussion#latest
But seriously. Since you have HR limitations, that almost makes power irrelevant. All of your rides, training, racing, testing will always be limited by your HR cap. Complete these using your HR cap, observe your power and go with that. As far as what to use? Golden Cheetah CP, mFTP in WKO4, and I even like the FTP estimate in STRAVA, I'd be willing to bet they are all within 5% of eachother... I think the real question is whether or not you should just use HR settings for your Zones and PMC metrics???... You can always go with power zones and use HR cap , also what maybe interesting is to then compare the ride TSS power vs. HR
@Ralph Moore - Ignore @tim cronk , he's a retired old man absorbing the crotchityness of his neighbors in AZ retiree land and is fighting a war against the Triathlon & cycling coaching establishment for their misuse of the term "FTP" in his literal definition.. the rest of his information is on the money. The other thread details the issue as he and other really smart people see it.
on a side note, have you gone to see a cardiologist to ensure you aren't endangering your self? I ask this seriously.
@scott dinhofer I fancy myself a curmudgeon , if you please , thank you very much. 😀
I don't see your need to have an FTP test. If you have a max HR limit, then your goal is to push as many Watts at that HR for X time. If you want 20 minutes then see how many watts you can average. When you retest, you keep HR stable and track improved average watts.
Even @Al Truscott isn't THAT crusty!
Curmudgeon: a bad-tempered person, especially an old one. @tim cronk you are neither.
I myself am well-tempered, like hardened steel...
Also, @scott dinhofer , SWAG = Scientific Wild Ass Guess
I am liking the zwift power website estimates.
Thanks for all of your concerns about my cardiac issues. The short version is that my max HR has NEVER been above about 170. Beginning in about 2013, I found that if I do a full on hard workout like an FTP test and get my HR up into the mid 150's and then try to give it a little bit more, my HR will suddenly jump to 220 and I feel very tired. If I stop and walk (when running) for a minute, it drops to normal and I continue on. It took about 2 years of cardiologist visits and testing to finally capture it on an EKG since it only happens during workouts (and then only a few times a year).
It was initially found to be atrial flutter and I had an ablation but it recurred within a few months during a workout. I now have an implantable heart monitor that phones to my cardiologist at night. If I keep my HR below the 150s, it doesn't ever occur so I basically just follow my HR closely and back off if it gets too high. Interestingly, hard intervals don't cause it if I have sufficient recovery in between workouts but cumulative training stress makes it more likely to happen. This and the fact that it happened once during the swim forced my retirement from competitive triathlon (I use the term competitive loosely).
I still like to train with the team and I stay in the OS and get faster plans basically year round. My highest FTP test a couple of years ago put my FTP at 259. I use Golden Cheetah to estimate it and currently find that it is about 245. Basically, every 4 weeks of a training plan, if I feel pretty good, I just bump it up a few points and then if the workouts get too hard, I put it back down.
@tim cronk I agree that in many ways FTP is irrelevant in my situation (especially since not racing) but I use it to increase the workouts in my training plan so that I will progress. You are also correct in the training benefit of having a lower HR for a given FTP as I train more. The interesting part is that my HR typically stays in the 130 range for a long time and then when goes up above that, it goes up pretty fast and I have to back off.
@scott dinhofer In many ways the end result of all of this is the same as when I told my wife that I wanted a Cervelo P3 and how much it cost. She told me to just lose weight instead. Decreased weight = increased w/kg.
@Ralph Moore What's great is that you have not allowed this to inhibit your activity in any significant way. While you are not actually racing, not driving yourself beyond your safety envelope, you have still organized things so that you can satisfy a competitive need. In the purest sense, because you are competing with yourself. And, as we all know, competition works best when it is with (not against) others.
Good on ya, and keep having fun with your fitness!