That’s great!! You simply can’t beat swimming with other people and not only been pushed to work harder, but learn from how they move through the water. At heart, you have the fitness to be successful it’s a big learning how to do this with most effectively.
It’s not an easy transition for Runners, so kudos to you. I recommend that you still keep that swimming up and as you do your preparation for the half marathons.
Do you have any interest in setting a time go or performance target for either one of those races? Or are they just events to keep you focused?
@Robert Sherwood Final Surge notified me that you were looking for some help loading plans. I help Coach Patrick with Final Surge. I looked at your account and you have a plan loaded. Did you figure it out or do you want to change your plan? How can I help?
Hi Coach P, Ok computer is much better than iphone. The Ventura County Marathon is October 25, 2020. It's top 3 fastest course in pretty much every survey and close to my house. Here are my current times:
Not sure how realistic I am being that why I was asking about the course because I seem to run about 30 seconds per mile faster with a slight decline. So my question is what plan should I follow going forward? right now I'm in first taper week of Level 3 Balanced marathon plan. (I'm going to run a marathon around my city 4/26. Thanks, Bob
@Robert Sherwood -- this is great, thank you! Please keep me posted on your progression of pieces, by that I mean what your April 26 marathon looks like. I'd like to use that information to be able to inform a decision moving forward.
From a macro level, you would essentially do your run, recover for 2 to 3 weeks with some cross training, and then return to some faster work before more volume.
Right now your 5K time gives you a projected marathon finish of sub 340. So we are looking at affectively 20 minutes of improvement, but now that we know the gap we have to close we can start being strategic about how we work on it!
Enjoy that run (be sure to fuel it!) and let's connect during your recovery week to chart next steps!
I followed level 3 balanced plan. I did pretty much all the workouts as scheduled, I broke up one 16 mile long run because of a 50 mile bike ride the day before, but i made up the miles. My 18 mile practice run was good 8:53 pace with average hr 143. (My goal was 8:30 with lth of 154) I had two strong runs going into my last taper week. 8 miles with 7:49 pace at 152 hr and another 8 mile run at 8:21 pace with avg hr of 146. My last taper week didn't feel good. I don't really know why. My hr was too high for my durability runs. I kept getting these hr spikes for first mile (which apparently comes from not warming up enough) but i really wasn't doing anything different. My last Friday run was little better. Rest day Saturday. I hydrated took on some extra carbs. Weather for race day was not great. Heat wave. I started early 6:00 am to try and avoid heat. I felt ok to start. My pace was right at 8:30 but my heart rate was too high (148) I couldn't get it to come down and maintain pace I wanted. So I figured i'd see how long I could last. By mile 18 I was done. It was in mid 80's and I started to feel nauseous. I hung in for another 4 miles but I wasn't feeling good so I just shut it down and called my wife to come get me. I feel like my nutrition was good (I took one Gu every 4 miles (35 min) which is what I've done in past. I brought water with inifinit nutrition (300 calories) I know the heat was a factor but I also feel like I wasn't at my best for some reason. Anyway I'm excited to get back at it. Please let me know your thoughts, My next marathon is October 24. It's a fast course and I feel like I can get faster.
@Robert Sherwood - thanks so much for the update. I think it's important for us to capture what happened to you just so we have some lessons learned. Here are some of my thoughts to go along with your experience:
The taper matters. To me it seems like maybe you weren't rested enough heading into taper week, and that made life a little more challenging. It could be a combination of the unique stress we are facing plus your training, but either way let's plan on having a little more additional rest the next time around.
Generally speaking, the folks at infinIT do not recommend eating food and taking infinIT. InfinIT is meant to be a calorie replacement solution until his self. If you are going to consume fluids regularly, I would urge you to make them less calories focused such as Gatorade Endurance, Tailwind, or Skratch.
I'm glad that you did shut it down. A high heart rate at the start is not a good sign if it lasts more than a mile. Essentially your body was doing more work aerobically then you had trained for, so it only makes sense that you had to stop early. I'm glad you gave it your best shot and it's a good way to close out this block of .
Here are the next steps:
First we recover for two weeks just to shed some of the fatigue in our system and the pain from the run. You have that plan in place.
Second we move into some 5k training action to build up Critical Run Speed. I I've loaded the 12 week 5K plan into your account which starts on May 11 and ends August 2. This would be a great midseason change of pace for you. There is still a long run on Sundays, and I would recommend that you keep that very low paced but consistent from week to week. I am sure you're going to want to add some cycling on top of this so let me know what you were thinking once you take a look at the plan and we can go from there. When we are complete with this phase of your training we would return to the standard marathon program.
I looked at the 5k plan and I'm looking forward to something different from what I have been doing. I would like to add some cycling. Would that be on top of running or in place of run? I also plan on getting back in the pool at some point and working on my open water swimming. I do want to focus on run though and take a shot qualifying for Boston Marathon over next couple years. Thank you for all your help.
You should 100% use the results of your virtual test that's totally fine. I went into your training program and I added two placeholder bike workouts for Wednesday and Saturday that you could use in place of those runs.
As you progress through the program, it's important to note that run frequency does matter but it's OK to balance that out with some cycling. Variety and your training is important, so we don't want to sacrifice using your fitness to do some fun stuff like exploring on your bike.
Ok so my last 5k test was 22:48. I'm going to shoot for 20:30 after 12 weeks. This will be my first ever training block focusing on speed. I finally got a bike trainer a Wahoo Kickr so I'm looking forward to getting on Swift if I can figure it out. I also want to make sure I'm not missing anything with nutrition. Most of my runs are less than 1 1/2 hours so I don't need to worry about nutrition? (I read you have 1 1/2 to 2 hours of energy in the tank?) Once I transition to marathon training it gets more important? So my longer endurance events will be on bike. I just did almost 3 hour ride Saturday not long in terms of mileage but almost 4000 feet of climbing. I had 2 scoops of inifinit (300 calories) in 24 oz water and 24 oz Gatorade. I used infinit to start then protein bar (200 cal) then switched to Gatorade. All gone by the end. 2000 calories burned overall per Garmin. Ok? Weather was warm. FYI My daughter is doing final surge 5k this Saturday first one ever. she's done all the workouts since beginning. Thank you for setting that up.
@Robert Sherwood - that's great, I think you can set up a good program where you alternate the intensity work on the run according to the 5K and then use the bike for endurance and recovery. I think you're really gonna like the wahoo. I love my time on Zwift and almost right exclusively even though I love to ride outside as well. It's just too darn convenient. I'm also just a sucker for all the social chatting and connecting in the game. We have a lot of teammates in the game, so there are plenty people here to help you. We also have this resource page: www.endurancenation.us/zwift
Ps - that is really awesome news about your daughter! Two of my friends here in town have their kids doing it as well since they're all in distance learning right now. I'm glad to hear that it worked for her! And hopefully she's not too fast for daddy. 🤣
Hi Coach P: So I started riding on Zwift and it is definitely addicting and like you said you can't beat the convenience. I am supposed to do my first group ride with Nam Wednesday am so we will see how that goes. I've had a technical issue with hr monitor but people in Zwift chat are very helpful. I haven't ventured into the discord thing other than to download app. It looks like you have to add everyone you want to chat with by getting their user name. I can definitely see myself spending more time on the bike. I'd like to sign up for the Zwift training plan you talked about on the video.
I did my first interval workout today. 6 x 1/4 mile. Average was 1:35 which I think is right where I want to be for 20:30 5k in 12 weeks? I do want to make sure I'm staying on track for my BQ goal. I understand it might take a couple years or more but I feel like it's something I can do. For me BQ is 3:25 this year 3:35 next year unless they change times again. The two weeks off running really helped me. In hindsight I do think I had some fatigue I couldn't get rid of with normal recovery/rest. Thanks, Bob.
@Robert Sherwood sounds like the recovery did you write and that you're running at a great pace. Yes that effort is right in alignment with what we are looking for.
The key is to keep you healthy as you do the speed work, which is the role of the bike. I'm glad you are excited about Zwift. It's a great addition to any training program.
The meet up rides you are doing on Wednesday is a little different than your average ride because you will be stuck together with a rubber band and can't be separated. Normal group rides in the game or a little more complicated/you have to pay a bit more attention. But you'll soon really get good at that.
You don't have to add individual people in discord, I thought you could certainly right click their name and call them directly. As long as you're in the right Endurance Nation channel on the left-hand side of the menu, anyone else and that Shanon will be able to communicate with you. That's what we use.
@Robert Sherwood - you are a little faster than the average bear, so I would stick to the mileage. We can always add one or two shorter runs in later in the week/program if we want.you are a little faster than the average bear, so I would stick to the mileage. We can always add one or two shorter runs in later in the week/program if we want. You're riding a decent amount so no need to find "bonus" miles on the run!
I just wanted to update you on my training and make sure I'm on right course. I finished UltraMay challenge which was the most volume ever for me. It gave me some hope that I might actually be able to complete an IM some day. I took two days off but didn't want to take any more days off because I didn't want to lose any fitness. (Per training peaks I went from a 67 to 80 in fitness just in the one weekend. ) I haven't doubled on any workouts (one bike or run per day) since and just now feel like I'm recovered. (I had rough bike Wednesday but good run Thursday (7 miles @ 56:12 and it felt comfortable except for last mile where I pushed it up hill and finished with a 7:47 mile) Good ride today for FFT PR by 6 min. Here are my interval workouts since I started 5K plan any insight would be great. (I'll send on second post)
@Robert Sherwood - should be pretty pumped about that you achieved during Ultraman. That was no small accomplishment for you, even though some people make it look easier it's important to note the relative effect it has on you per your normal training volume. Big kudos. Remember, I was just kidding about the need to always keep the numbers going up. Recovery is a key part of your program, as is listening to your body.
Overall, looking at your improvement through those intervals I see some positive changes. Remember that the overall cool we are using hear is "progressive overload." That means adding incremental amount of additional stress is giving your body time to recover and adapt.
I can see that you've gone from six intervals to 10 intervals put on lower heart rate and approximately the same piece. To me that looks like winning! I'll be curious to hear how you feel during those intervals now versus earlier in the cycle.
I did test 5k per my plan Sunday - 22:57 which is slower than what I'd hope for. My PR 22:38 was in March and I'm trying to improve that time. In my defense in did a 60 mile 4200 ft elevation bike ride Saturday and although I felt fine my legs were not. Probably not a good test for that reason? I moved up to 6 X 1/2 mile intervals. It seems much harder to hold 1:30 pace for 1/2 mile (I averaged 3:23) I do feel very comfortable at 8:00 per mile pace which is big improvement for me. It does surprise me that at 8:00 - 8:10 I'm pretty comfortable but as soon as I edge to 7:30 it gets exponentially harder. Seems like so much extra effort for 30 seconds but maybe that's a lot. Anyway really enjoying Zwift and group rides. Looking forward to bike camp. Bob
@Robert Sherwood No worries... am guessing that 19 seconds...6 seconds per mile...would be affected by a 60 mile ride! 🤣 Close enough for me on that....but I think we can see some improvement.
Re the 1/2 miles, so your best effort on them. You are breaking new ground for the fitness, so it's not easy. Do your best there on that pacing; we should see the gains moving forward as you extend those paces out (and slow them down a bit).
Remember, you are also carrying some fatigue...so don't sweat it overall. We could move those "hard" run workouts to be after a lighter day to see if that makes it manageable. Would you be open to that?
I had a little soreness in my upper calf Monday. I took Tuesday off. I had interval workout Wednesday. I did feel a little fatigue and I was about 5 seconds slower per 1/2 mile than last week 3:29 vs 3:24 week before. My calf felt a little sore after but not bad. I felt good Thursday but about mile in I pulled something or strained it whatever the medical term is. I stopped right away tried to stretch but not good. I walked home. I've been icing etc. I should be good for bike camp and swim but I think I should take a few days off from running? It's really hard to distinguish from general soreness and a warning sign to take break. I know how important staying injury free is so I do try and be careful especially now that I'm 50+. It's frustrating but not much I can do. Have a great 4th of July and I'm looking forward to bike camp.
Monday is generally my lightest day so would Tuesday be best day for interval work? (that's where it currently is scheduled) But I'm open to whatever you think is best.
@Robert Sherwood thanks for the update! In the future, I think after you feel a tweak in your calf we should plan on taking at least a day or two off from running. There’s no amount of running that’s going to fix a calf problem. I think you should plan on not running for about seven days. You can walk and do all the cycling you want, but let’s give the calf a little bit of time to heal.
Many times running at high speeds can cause us to overuse specific muscles, so listening to your body is critical. unfortunately, injury management is just a large part of how we operate as we get older. It doesn’t mean you can’t be fast, it just means you just have to be as smart as you are strong!
Ok. I was going to go for ez run tomorrow but I'll wait a couple more days. I don't like taking time off especially when I feel like I'm making good progress, but I understand it is important.
@Robert Sherwood - progress only looks forward because resume out enough. Doing that allows us to ignore the parts where we went sideways or even backwards. Listening to your body is a lifelong skill, and exercise is a great place where you can see the direct results of being smart. We don't often get such direct and immediate feedback in other areas of our life! Keep me posted.
Hi Coach P: Just quick update on my progress. Calf injury gone so all good there. Focusing on my interval run workout. I'm now at 8 x 1/2 mile w/ 2 min recovery. (I walk the recovery) Tuesday was 3:32 average. I was a little faster two weeks ago pre-injury but only by a few seconds. My threshold pace is down to 7:52 (same 156 hr) which is the lowest I've recorded on my Garmin. I'm enjoying bike camp a lot of info to digest. I've always thought of the bike as more of a recovery activity, but now with Zwift I feel like bike workouts are helping my fitness without the strain on my body the running seems to produce. (As much as I enjoy running it really breaks me down. ) Jeremy was talking about that in his EN webinar. I use Friday FFT as a barometer for my bike fitness and my time was 1:25 the first time back on May 15. 1:11 a week later. 1:05 on June 12. Today was 1:00:18 ( I thought I broke hour 59:52 per my clock but race results showed 1:00:18. ) I'm back swimming couple times a week. I guess my main concern is that I am getting enough rest. I feel good but it seems like that can change overnight. Thanks, Bob
@Robert Sherwood thank you for the candid feedback. I agree that exploring the bike from an intensity perspective will really change your overall perspective on endurance. You'll have the benefit of getting all the strength without the costs associated with too much running. It's simply the smart thing to do.
It's very hard -- even for accomplished athletes -- to walk away from the run levels they used to put in when they were younger. But it's a pre-requisite to success. We simply can't force fitness into your body via the run when it can only take too much.
The best part about this time of year, and this season in general, is that any given day you can shut it down. I would encourage you to do that for the "unimportant" days. For example, Friday Freight Train is fun but if you're tired, just roll over. You lose nothing in the overall scheme of things and you can help yourself stay on track. Some days you just need more rest, but only you know when that is.
Remember, I can always fix too rested....but I can't fix broken.
So my marathon for October was just cancelled so that's basically it for this year. (I am going to do DIY tri which will be a lot for me. My goal is sub 6 hours?) I'm in last week of 5K plan and then I'll need to figure out what to do. I think I'll follow the plan from bike camp? My weekly training would look something like this:
Monday - Rest or (light workout eg 4 mile run) Tuesday - bike VO2 #1 / recovery swim in PM (say 2000 yards) Wednesday - X train (Can I do my run intervals?) Thurs VO2 #1/ easy swim PM Fri - Can I do FFT? otherwise I'll run. Saturday - Lactate Shuttling (usually my long ride day so not sure how that fits in) Sunday - Sprint fun. So should I give up running for time being except one or two days a week? Is this overly ambitious? Not enough? I've been training average 8-10 hours per week and it seems like I need about 600 TSS to keep my fitness overall going in right direction.
@Robert Sherwood - I'd hear about your race, but at least you know you are alone! I think the next best step for you is to figure out what a baseline level of run fitness would look like to keep you "happy" and give you room to develop on the bike. Overall, you have the most room to grow on the bike.
We will be generating a tentative plan for you coming out of Best Buy Camp shortly, so in the meantime I would recommend that you stick to the plan you outlined. The modifications I would make:
Mon - Rest
Tues - VO2 longer stuff
Wed - Run Intervals (not all out)
Thu - VO2 shorter stuff
Fri - FFT tempo, not a race.
Sat - Bike/Run
Sun - Bike
You can do super short break runs on Tuesdays and Thursdays as well, call it 2 or 3 miles max. Retaining that one of your program will help you stay fluent and not that far away from the fitness you have developed without working too hard to hold onto it. Call the basic mileage 15 miles per week.
I did my 5k time trial today after 12 week 5k plan. I was actually a little bit slower, but had that PR FFT day before and frankly the original time I was usung was after my marathon training so I was in pretty good run shape at the time. I am realizing that as I hit what is probably my VO2 max for run (close to max Hr) I'm definitely not happy there. But if I take it down just a bit so if go from say 7:30-7:45 per mile to 8:00-8:15 per mile it makes a huge difference. In other words at 7:30 I feel like I'm going to pass out and 8:00 I feel comfortable still hard but not bad, Does this sound right?
@Robert Sherwood you've also been crushing it on the bike. So fitter overall but not run specific fit. I am in the same place you are....not a terrible problem given all of your gains! Really impressed with your bike these last few weeks. 🚀
Yes, that run pacing sounds ride. Like you could run 8:00 for a ten miler or 13.1...that's about the right bandwidth!
Comments
That’s great!! You simply can’t beat swimming with other people and not only been pushed to work harder, but learn from how they move through the water. At heart, you have the fitness to be successful it’s a big learning how to do this with most effectively.
It’s not an easy transition for Runners, so kudos to you. I recommend that you still keep that swimming up and as you do your preparation for the half marathons.
Do you have any interest in setting a time go or performance target for either one of those races? Or are they just events to keep you focused?
@Robert Sherwood Final Surge notified me that you were looking for some help loading plans. I help Coach Patrick with Final Surge. I looked at your account and you have a plan loaded. Did you figure it out or do you want to change your plan? How can I help?
Hi Coach P, Ok computer is much better than iphone. The Ventura County Marathon is October 25, 2020. It's top 3 fastest course in pretty much every survey and close to my house. Here are my current times:
5K - 22:48 / 10K - 47:44 / 1/2 M - 1:45:07 / marathon 3:49 (March 2019)
My Goal times:
5K - 20:32 / 10K - 42:38 / 1/2 M - 1:35:02 / Marathon 3:20
Not sure how realistic I am being that why I was asking about the course because I seem to run about 30 seconds per mile faster with a slight decline. So my question is what plan should I follow going forward? right now I'm in first taper week of Level 3 Balanced marathon plan. (I'm going to run a marathon around my city 4/26. Thanks, Bob
@Robert Sherwood -- this is great, thank you! Please keep me posted on your progression of pieces, by that I mean what your April 26 marathon looks like. I'd like to use that information to be able to inform a decision moving forward.
From a macro level, you would essentially do your run, recover for 2 to 3 weeks with some cross training, and then return to some faster work before more volume.
Right now your 5K time gives you a projected marathon finish of sub 340. So we are looking at affectively 20 minutes of improvement, but now that we know the gap we have to close we can start being strategic about how we work on it!
Enjoy that run (be sure to fuel it!) and let's connect during your recovery week to chart next steps!
~ Coach P
Hi Coach P,
Ok so here is my race breakdown:
I followed level 3 balanced plan. I did pretty much all the workouts as scheduled, I broke up one 16 mile long run because of a 50 mile bike ride the day before, but i made up the miles. My 18 mile practice run was good 8:53 pace with average hr 143. (My goal was 8:30 with lth of 154) I had two strong runs going into my last taper week. 8 miles with 7:49 pace at 152 hr and another 8 mile run at 8:21 pace with avg hr of 146. My last taper week didn't feel good. I don't really know why. My hr was too high for my durability runs. I kept getting these hr spikes for first mile (which apparently comes from not warming up enough) but i really wasn't doing anything different. My last Friday run was little better. Rest day Saturday. I hydrated took on some extra carbs. Weather for race day was not great. Heat wave. I started early 6:00 am to try and avoid heat. I felt ok to start. My pace was right at 8:30 but my heart rate was too high (148) I couldn't get it to come down and maintain pace I wanted. So I figured i'd see how long I could last. By mile 18 I was done. It was in mid 80's and I started to feel nauseous. I hung in for another 4 miles but I wasn't feeling good so I just shut it down and called my wife to come get me. I feel like my nutrition was good (I took one Gu every 4 miles (35 min) which is what I've done in past. I brought water with inifinit nutrition (300 calories) I know the heat was a factor but I also feel like I wasn't at my best for some reason. Anyway I'm excited to get back at it. Please let me know your thoughts, My next marathon is October 24. It's a fast course and I feel like I can get faster.
Thanks, Bob
@Robert Sherwood - thanks so much for the update. I think it's important for us to capture what happened to you just so we have some lessons learned. Here are some of my thoughts to go along with your experience:
Here are the next steps:
Onwards!
~ Coach P
Hi Coach P
I looked at the 5k plan and I'm looking forward to something different from what I have been doing. I would like to add some cycling. Would that be on top of running or in place of run? I also plan on getting back in the pool at some point and working on my open water swimming. I do want to focus on run though and take a shot qualifying for Boston Marathon over next couple years. Thank you for all your help.
Bob
Sorry one other thing. Should I do a test 5K before I start or can I use my final Surge Virtual 5K from March 28 r should I not worry about it?
You should 100% use the results of your virtual test that's totally fine. I went into your training program and I added two placeholder bike workouts for Wednesday and Saturday that you could use in place of those runs.
As you progress through the program, it's important to note that run frequency does matter but it's OK to balance that out with some cycling. Variety and your training is important, so we don't want to sacrifice using your fitness to do some fun stuff like exploring on your bike.
Let me know what you think!
~ Coach P
Ok so my last 5k test was 22:48. I'm going to shoot for 20:30 after 12 weeks. This will be my first ever training block focusing on speed. I finally got a bike trainer a Wahoo Kickr so I'm looking forward to getting on Swift if I can figure it out. I also want to make sure I'm not missing anything with nutrition. Most of my runs are less than 1 1/2 hours so I don't need to worry about nutrition? (I read you have 1 1/2 to 2 hours of energy in the tank?) Once I transition to marathon training it gets more important? So my longer endurance events will be on bike. I just did almost 3 hour ride Saturday not long in terms of mileage but almost 4000 feet of climbing. I had 2 scoops of inifinit (300 calories) in 24 oz water and 24 oz Gatorade. I used infinit to start then protein bar (200 cal) then switched to Gatorade. All gone by the end. 2000 calories burned overall per Garmin. Ok? Weather was warm. FYI My daughter is doing final surge 5k this Saturday first one ever. she's done all the workouts since beginning. Thank you for setting that up.
Bob
@Robert Sherwood - that's great, I think you can set up a good program where you alternate the intensity work on the run according to the 5K and then use the bike for endurance and recovery. I think you're really gonna like the wahoo. I love my time on Zwift and almost right exclusively even though I love to ride outside as well. It's just too darn convenient. I'm also just a sucker for all the social chatting and connecting in the game. We have a lot of teammates in the game, so there are plenty people here to help you. We also have this resource page: www.endurancenation.us/zwift
And our Zwift Chat: GroupMe EN Zwift Chat
Keep me posted and let me know if you need help!
~ Coach P
Ps - that is really awesome news about your daughter! Two of my friends here in town have their kids doing it as well since they're all in distance learning right now. I'm glad to hear that it worked for her! And hopefully she's not too fast for daddy. 🤣
Hi Coach P: So I started riding on Zwift and it is definitely addicting and like you said you can't beat the convenience. I am supposed to do my first group ride with Nam Wednesday am so we will see how that goes. I've had a technical issue with hr monitor but people in Zwift chat are very helpful. I haven't ventured into the discord thing other than to download app. It looks like you have to add everyone you want to chat with by getting their user name. I can definitely see myself spending more time on the bike. I'd like to sign up for the Zwift training plan you talked about on the video.
I did my first interval workout today. 6 x 1/4 mile. Average was 1:35 which I think is right where I want to be for 20:30 5k in 12 weeks? I do want to make sure I'm staying on track for my BQ goal. I understand it might take a couple years or more but I feel like it's something I can do. For me BQ is 3:25 this year 3:35 next year unless they change times again. The two weeks off running really helped me. In hindsight I do think I had some fatigue I couldn't get rid of with normal recovery/rest. Thanks, Bob.
@Robert Sherwood sounds like the recovery did you write and that you're running at a great pace. Yes that effort is right in alignment with what we are looking for.
The key is to keep you healthy as you do the speed work, which is the role of the bike. I'm glad you are excited about Zwift. It's a great addition to any training program.
The meet up rides you are doing on Wednesday is a little different than your average ride because you will be stuck together with a rubber band and can't be separated. Normal group rides in the game or a little more complicated/you have to pay a bit more attention. But you'll soon really get good at that.
You don't have to add individual people in discord, I thought you could certainly right click their name and call them directly. As long as you're in the right Endurance Nation channel on the left-hand side of the menu, anyone else and that Shanon will be able to communicate with you. That's what we use.
~ Coach P
Hi Coach P:
1:32 this week for my intervals
One question:
The run workouts have time and a mile duration. Should I follow mile or time? Generally workouts are one hour and I can run mileage under hour.
Thanks,
Bob
@Robert Sherwood - you are a little faster than the average bear, so I would stick to the mileage. We can always add one or two shorter runs in later in the week/program if we want.you are a little faster than the average bear, so I would stick to the mileage. We can always add one or two shorter runs in later in the week/program if we want. You're riding a decent amount so no need to find "bonus" miles on the run!
Hope you had a great weekend,
~ Coach P
Hi Coach P:
I just wanted to update you on my training and make sure I'm on right course. I finished UltraMay challenge which was the most volume ever for me. It gave me some hope that I might actually be able to complete an IM some day. I took two days off but didn't want to take any more days off because I didn't want to lose any fitness. (Per training peaks I went from a 67 to 80 in fitness just in the one weekend. ) I haven't doubled on any workouts (one bike or run per day) since and just now feel like I'm recovered. (I had rough bike Wednesday but good run Thursday (7 miles @ 56:12 and it felt comfortable except for last mile where I pushed it up hill and finished with a 7:47 mile) Good ride today for FFT PR by 6 min. Here are my interval workouts since I started 5K plan any insight would be great. (I'll send on second post)
May 19 - 6 X 1/4 mile 2 min recovery @ 6:07 avg pace max HR 174
May 26 - 8 X 1/4 mile 2 min recovery @ 6:12 avg pace max HR 166
June 6 (no intervals UltraMay recovery ran 4 miles @ 7:42 pace max HR 163
June 9 - 10 X 1/4 mile 2 min recovery @ 6:17 avg pace max HR 162
May 12 - 6 X 1/4 mile 2 min recovery @ 6:21 avg pace max HR 171
@Robert Sherwood - should be pretty pumped about that you achieved during Ultraman. That was no small accomplishment for you, even though some people make it look easier it's important to note the relative effect it has on you per your normal training volume. Big kudos. Remember, I was just kidding about the need to always keep the numbers going up. Recovery is a key part of your program, as is listening to your body.
Overall, looking at your improvement through those intervals I see some positive changes. Remember that the overall cool we are using hear is "progressive overload." That means adding incremental amount of additional stress is giving your body time to recover and adapt.
I can see that you've gone from six intervals to 10 intervals put on lower heart rate and approximately the same piece. To me that looks like winning! I'll be curious to hear how you feel during those intervals now versus earlier in the cycle.
Hi Coach P:
I did test 5k per my plan Sunday - 22:57 which is slower than what I'd hope for. My PR 22:38 was in March and I'm trying to improve that time. In my defense in did a 60 mile 4200 ft elevation bike ride Saturday and although I felt fine my legs were not. Probably not a good test for that reason? I moved up to 6 X 1/2 mile intervals. It seems much harder to hold 1:30 pace for 1/2 mile (I averaged 3:23) I do feel very comfortable at 8:00 per mile pace which is big improvement for me. It does surprise me that at 8:00 - 8:10 I'm pretty comfortable but as soon as I edge to 7:30 it gets exponentially harder. Seems like so much extra effort for 30 seconds but maybe that's a lot. Anyway really enjoying Zwift and group rides. Looking forward to bike camp. Bob
@Robert Sherwood No worries... am guessing that 19 seconds...6 seconds per mile...would be affected by a 60 mile ride! 🤣 Close enough for me on that....but I think we can see some improvement.
Re the 1/2 miles, so your best effort on them. You are breaking new ground for the fitness, so it's not easy. Do your best there on that pacing; we should see the gains moving forward as you extend those paces out (and slow them down a bit).
Remember, you are also carrying some fatigue...so don't sweat it overall. We could move those "hard" run workouts to be after a lighter day to see if that makes it manageable. Would you be open to that?
See you soon at camp!
~ Coach P
I had a little soreness in my upper calf Monday. I took Tuesday off. I had interval workout Wednesday. I did feel a little fatigue and I was about 5 seconds slower per 1/2 mile than last week 3:29 vs 3:24 week before. My calf felt a little sore after but not bad. I felt good Thursday but about mile in I pulled something or strained it whatever the medical term is. I stopped right away tried to stretch but not good. I walked home. I've been icing etc. I should be good for bike camp and swim but I think I should take a few days off from running? It's really hard to distinguish from general soreness and a warning sign to take break. I know how important staying injury free is so I do try and be careful especially now that I'm 50+. It's frustrating but not much I can do. Have a great 4th of July and I'm looking forward to bike camp.
Monday is generally my lightest day so would Tuesday be best day for interval work? (that's where it currently is scheduled) But I'm open to whatever you think is best.
Bob
@Robert Sherwood thanks for the update! In the future, I think after you feel a tweak in your calf we should plan on taking at least a day or two off from running. There’s no amount of running that’s going to fix a calf problem. I think you should plan on not running for about seven days. You can walk and do all the cycling you want, but let’s give the calf a little bit of time to heal.
Many times running at high speeds can cause us to overuse specific muscles, so listening to your body is critical. unfortunately, injury management is just a large part of how we operate as we get older. It doesn’t mean you can’t be fast, it just means you just have to be as smart as you are strong!
Ok. I was going to go for ez run tomorrow but I'll wait a couple more days. I don't like taking time off especially when I feel like I'm making good progress, but I understand it is important.
@Robert Sherwood - progress only looks forward because resume out enough. Doing that allows us to ignore the parts where we went sideways or even backwards. Listening to your body is a lifelong skill, and exercise is a great place where you can see the direct results of being smart. We don't often get such direct and immediate feedback in other areas of our life! Keep me posted.
Hi Coach P: Just quick update on my progress. Calf injury gone so all good there. Focusing on my interval run workout. I'm now at 8 x 1/2 mile w/ 2 min recovery. (I walk the recovery) Tuesday was 3:32 average. I was a little faster two weeks ago pre-injury but only by a few seconds. My threshold pace is down to 7:52 (same 156 hr) which is the lowest I've recorded on my Garmin. I'm enjoying bike camp a lot of info to digest. I've always thought of the bike as more of a recovery activity, but now with Zwift I feel like bike workouts are helping my fitness without the strain on my body the running seems to produce. (As much as I enjoy running it really breaks me down. ) Jeremy was talking about that in his EN webinar. I use Friday FFT as a barometer for my bike fitness and my time was 1:25 the first time back on May 15. 1:11 a week later. 1:05 on June 12. Today was 1:00:18 ( I thought I broke hour 59:52 per my clock but race results showed 1:00:18. ) I'm back swimming couple times a week. I guess my main concern is that I am getting enough rest. I feel good but it seems like that can change overnight. Thanks, Bob
@Robert Sherwood thank you for the candid feedback. I agree that exploring the bike from an intensity perspective will really change your overall perspective on endurance. You'll have the benefit of getting all the strength without the costs associated with too much running. It's simply the smart thing to do.
It's very hard -- even for accomplished athletes -- to walk away from the run levels they used to put in when they were younger. But it's a pre-requisite to success. We simply can't force fitness into your body via the run when it can only take too much.
The best part about this time of year, and this season in general, is that any given day you can shut it down. I would encourage you to do that for the "unimportant" days. For example, Friday Freight Train is fun but if you're tired, just roll over. You lose nothing in the overall scheme of things and you can help yourself stay on track. Some days you just need more rest, but only you know when that is.
Remember, I can always fix too rested....but I can't fix broken.
~ Coach P
Hi Coach P:
So my marathon for October was just cancelled so that's basically it for this year. (I am going to do DIY tri which will be a lot for me. My goal is sub 6 hours?) I'm in last week of 5K plan and then I'll need to figure out what to do. I think I'll follow the plan from bike camp? My weekly training would look something like this:
Monday - Rest or (light workout eg 4 mile run) Tuesday - bike VO2 #1 / recovery swim in PM (say 2000 yards) Wednesday - X train (Can I do my run intervals?) Thurs VO2 #1/ easy swim PM Fri - Can I do FFT? otherwise I'll run. Saturday - Lactate Shuttling (usually my long ride day so not sure how that fits in) Sunday - Sprint fun. So should I give up running for time being except one or two days a week? Is this overly ambitious? Not enough? I've been training average 8-10 hours per week and it seems like I need about 600 TSS to keep my fitness overall going in right direction.
Bob
@Robert Sherwood - I'd hear about your race, but at least you know you are alone! I think the next best step for you is to figure out what a baseline level of run fitness would look like to keep you "happy" and give you room to develop on the bike. Overall, you have the most room to grow on the bike.
We will be generating a tentative plan for you coming out of Best Buy Camp shortly, so in the meantime I would recommend that you stick to the plan you outlined. The modifications I would make:
You can do super short break runs on Tuesdays and Thursdays as well, call it 2 or 3 miles max. Retaining that one of your program will help you stay fluent and not that far away from the fitness you have developed without working too hard to hold onto it. Call the basic mileage 15 miles per week.
The most important day here is Mondays!!!
~ Coach P
Hi Coach P:
I did my 5k time trial today after 12 week 5k plan. I was actually a little bit slower, but had that PR FFT day before and frankly the original time I was usung was after my marathon training so I was in pretty good run shape at the time. I am realizing that as I hit what is probably my VO2 max for run (close to max Hr) I'm definitely not happy there. But if I take it down just a bit so if go from say 7:30-7:45 per mile to 8:00-8:15 per mile it makes a huge difference. In other words at 7:30 I feel like I'm going to pass out and 8:00 I feel comfortable still hard but not bad, Does this sound right?
@Robert Sherwood you've also been crushing it on the bike. So fitter overall but not run specific fit. I am in the same place you are....not a terrible problem given all of your gains! Really impressed with your bike these last few weeks. 🚀
Yes, that run pacing sounds ride. Like you could run 8:00 for a ten miler or 13.1...that's about the right bandwidth!
~ Coach P