Methods of Analysis [Feb 2019] Matt Limbert, Al Truscott, Jenn Edwards, Tim Cronk, Rich Stanbaugh
UPDATE: View the recording below.
Thurs 9PM EST [2/28/19] "Methods of analysis. In particular when you are trying to up your game, what and how do you use it to better prepare yourself for game day?"
Moderator: @matt limbert
Presenters: Al Truscott, Tim Cronk, Rich Stanbaugh, Jenn Edwards
Learn how Wicked Smart Members:
- Manage their TSS across a season
- Know when its time to back off
- Find more gains using VO2 max intensity
- Manage their swim TSS
Quotes:
- "Not all TSS are created equal."
- "The important thing about your numbers is the word 'your' because they are unique to you."
- "There is no magic number, there just numbers."
- "The hardest workout - was the one I didn't do."
Seminar #1 was a 70 minute discussion with 4x WSMs (Wicked Smart Members). Thanks to @Jenn Edwards @Al Truscott @Rich Stanbaugh @tim cronk for sharing their ideas and experience with data analysis with the rest of the Team.
With a combined 40+ years of training and racing experience they gave us some valuable insights and can help you use your data to train and race better. Smarter is always faster.
Recordings:
Download the Video: Here || Download the Audio: Here
Comments
Great Seminar #1
Some quick take aways from the WSM's. There's lots of information from the panel. If I'm not accurate please correct me.
@matt limbert Got down to business and rolled the meeting along. Reminded us that in the dashboard under the 'Learning ' tab is the Coach Lessons with past seminars in particular December 18 year end Review that goes into many of acronyms for this seminar.
@Al Truscott Good reminder that the higher your CTL in prep phase the lower ramp rate should be. Loves WAG for FTP. What's WAG? Wild Ass Guess. Use's approximately 5 for ramp rate. targets 1000-135 CTL before IM.
@tim cronk Takes 4 months to build CTL. Starts with 500 -700 TSS/week and targets 1000 TSS. Be careful when TSB gets to -30 or -40. Adjust plan as needed for you. Look at past data.
@Rich Stanbaugh Lots here. Does not include swim in CTL. Triathletes are typically underdeveloped in the <5 min power in cycling. Integrate V02 work for improvements in cycling performance.
@Jenn Edwards Use swim in CTL by adjusting 20 TSS/1000 yd. Put your projected TSS in TP to estimate build and workload (TSS). Likes to analyze bike files and will geek out on yours. :) You can be a Princess for first IM and then it's a lifestyle ... do the dishes. :)
Go here for more acronyms: http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/91/Default.aspx?topic=ENAIA++Endurance+Nation+Acronyms%2c+Initialisms+and
Interested in others take-aways.
@Jenn Edwards@Al Truscott@Rich Stanbaugh@tim cronk I'm so sorry to have missed this ... particularly as I think I one of the members who had asked for the subject in the first place. Some urgent work stuff took me away and offline for the scheduled time.
@matt limbert, thanks for posting.
Great preentation last night and leadership from @matt limbert @tim cronk @Jenn Edwards @Al Truscott & @Rich Stanbaugh
Thank you for the notes and kind words guys!
@Sheila Leard so funny @Mark Edwards was downstairs chatting me "wait, why am I doing dishes right now?!?"
😂
This was a great seminar. Not what I thought I was going to see, but information that I didn't know about, which leads to questions.
I've always collected the data with no real understanding of how to utilize it.
How do each of you determine what TSS score you are try to achieve each week? Is there an EN number or goal I don't know about? How did you determine this number?
I liked that you had a goal CTL number. I never thought about this. I just tried to raise it as much as possible, not necessarily realizing that it could be controlled by adding TSS. (newbie)
I would enjoy more of these types of seminars, Possibly breaking down different aspects of data and what it means to the athlete.
Gary @Gary Lewis
Thanks for attending. I was definitely cool to hear from some of our WSMs on how they do data analysis on their training. I can take a shot at your questions.
TSS per week? This would really depend on where you are in your training like building phase, sustaining phase or tapering phase. There is no EN goal. It is totally dependent on you and your goals for the season and where you are in your preparation. If you are in a building phase you will want to set some goals for increasing TSS per week, but the trick is managing the ramp rate (TSS increase per day and per week) to achieve your goal. The idea is that by increasing your TSS per week at a sustainable rate, one that you can do work and absorb the work, your acute training stress (purple line) will rise and over time that your chronic training stress (blue line).
How do you determine the number? Most of the WSMs have a goal TSS number they want to achieve several weeks before a race, also a individual (Al's was something like 135, Tim C was 150 ish, Jenn was 160-170) that they have found works for them based on past race performance. So the increases they set as goals per week are ATL (acute training load = short term) and build up as a ramp rate of the CTL (Chronic training load = long term). This is where it becomes very individual - like the difference in Jenn's high ramp rate v. a slower steady ramp rate. Generally speaking, you can sustain a higher ramp rate when your CTL is lower. The higher your CTL the more training you are doing and the tougher it is to go higher. For instance, Rich mentioned that earlier in the season with a low CTL you can quickly increase the ATL and have a higher ramp rate, but as your CTL get higher then the ramp rate kinda tops out as you meet your max training intensity and volume. Plus, you flat out run out of training time :)
So, how can you do this? Look at past race where you did well. Look at the max TSS you achieved before that race. Look at your TSB as you increased your training. What was your sustained TSB? How did you feel? Then you can set a goal TSS for your next race, project that TSS with those single workouts as place holders like Jenn did, then compare the TSB for that effort to previous efforts. Generally speaking, if your zones are set correctly you can maintain a -10 TSB (maybe a bit higher or lower) during a build, but again that is individual. Maybe a bit higher ( -20 to -30 TSB) when your CTL is low and lower (0 to -10 TSB) when your training is CTL is higher.
Option #1: You can use a "future view" of the PMC chart by changing the dates of the view on the chart. Then you can project TSS goals into the future. Jenn recommended building a single workout sunday with the goal TSS for the week. You can do this over several weeks so that you project your TSS ramp rate into the future. The PMC will show you how your TSS (ATL and CTL) looks like if you set those goals. You can also look at your Training Stress Balance, which is just the difference between your ATL and CTL. As your ramp rate increases (ATL and CTL increases) your TSB will be negative.
Option #2: Use the ATP function from the dashboard. It will ask you some questions like: When is your race? What is your goal TSS? Then it will project your ATL and CTL into the future. You can use this as a guide to view what different increases in TSS would look like over the time you have for your race. It will show you the future ATL and CTL required to meet that goal on your timeframe. Once you have that graph, it is easy to move the CTL or ATL line and adjust it to levels that are reasonable i.e. you can't do multiple weeks with - 50 TSB you would crush yourself and get injured. So, knowing what sustainable TSB is for you is helpful in planning. But, like Tim C and Al T. said, you will need to find those limits as you push for a higher CTL TSS and knowing your warning signs that they both pointed out will be key as you look to achieve new highs in TSS.
Sorry for the long answer. PM using the EN email function if you are interested and can show you how to do it in 20-30 minutes. Sometimes it is easier it show you than write the play by play description.
x10 on the outstanding presentation! Thanks to Matt and the WSMs for taking time to share your knowledge. It's staggering to think about the combined years of IM racing knowledge in that virtual room...this is what makes EN so awesome!
Since there were a lot of discussion on tracking and using data, guess what? There's a @Coach Patrick Tracking and Using Data 101 Course on the main EN page under Learning/Courses. Great resource for setting up S/B/R charts and tracking TSS. http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Courses/TrackingandUsingData101.aspx
@Gary Lewis Matt's post is in depth and spot on, so I'll just put a little personal spin on your question.
I've been doing IMs for about 20 years now, so my training actually pre-dates the development of TrainingPeaks and its associated analytic metrics. I can remember sometime in the mid-00's signing up for TP online, and also purchasing the computer-based version (which is now called WKO+). When it was introduced, it was specifically for cyclists, but triathletes rapidly glommed onto it, and soon tools for analyzing running were added. But back then, there were no prescriptions of what was the "right" set of numbers one should shoot for. Coaches (not necessarily @ EN) would make stabs at how rapidly one should raise their workload (represented by the Training Stress Balance and Ramp), and what final Chronic Training Load one should be seeking.
So at first, I was like you, just observing my numbers and graphs. After about 4-5 years, I started looking back at what I'd done, and tried to make some sense of it. That how I came up with the general rules - for me - I stated last night:
• 600-700 TSS/week is about the maximum sustainable workload I can handle during the 12-14 weeks of an OutSeason. Ramp rates might be as high as 7-13 during this phase, and TSBs are usually in the negative 20s.
• 1000-1100 TSS/week is the load I can sustain during the 8-10 weeks prior to an IM taper, with ramp rates of 4-5. TSB bounces around between -10 and -35, varying due to the wide variation in length of workouts during IM prep. I can raise that as high as 13-1400 when I throw in something like a camp week, but I'll pay later, pulling the average back to about 150/day.
• I take very little time off between seasons/years, so my CTL does not get below 35-45. In the OS, I get up to the 75-90 range, and then up to 130-135 about 2-3 weeks before an IM.
I think some of the difference between myself and Tim may be due to the nature of our work, which evolves from what we are good at. Tim is an aerobic machines and can roll and run for many hours at a time with little degradation in his power/pace. I seem to have a bit more relative ability on the shorter, harder efforts. (e.g., I like to do sprint and Olympic races). As noted, the harder you work on a day-to-day basis, the lower your CTL will be. "Not all TSS are created equal." But we both have maximized our success working with what we've got, meaning multiple KQs and AG IM wins.
Also, there are age factors to consider. I think I'm about 12 yrs older than Tim, and we may find (if he keeps up with this game), that his PMC comes to look more like mine 5-10 years from now.
The bottom line is as Matt is suggesting, there are no hard and fast rules. There is, first of all, consistent, progressive work with a proven training plan, like EN's. And then analyzing that work and the resulting performances to discover one's own personal targets. It goes with one of my beliefs, "Ironman is both easier and harder than it looks". Easier to complete, harder to compete at successfully than it appears from the outside. To simply complete, you can follow proven prescriptions, like EN's training plans and race strategies. To maximize success, you have to dive deep into your own past performance and tease out the best practices for you.
@matt limbert Thanks for the reply. I followed along live on all of the above points last night. But what if you don't have a "good" race from a historical perspective?
Mulling this over during my long run, what @Jenn Edwards said finally "clicked" about building a dummy workout once a week so the PMC would project her ramp rate (I believe that is the purpose) is a new concept for me. As a novice with the charts and data, I have never taken the time to build the workouts in advance. I always tried to complete the workouts as prescribed in the plan to the best of my ability/fatigue and took days/workouts off when I felt too fatigued. This is kind of a light bulb moment, that I still have a lot of learning on the road to performance. I assume this one "dummy" workout saves the time of building all of them? Do all of you build your workouts in TP in advance when you load the new plans? I realize that most of the WSMs are probably building their own plans and have no choice.
@Al Truscott thank you for your input. How do you manage training over the course of a season. My example is that my only race this year that I am truly concerned with is IMAZ in November. I just started the OS in mid February because of life's obligations. I will build a lot of fitness over the next months. Should I then just ease back for a week and start to build again? I would think sustained building would not be the best practice, but will just wear me out. There has to be a point where some rest would be beneficial. The one step back to go two steps forward analogy. I'm sure with my schedule I will end up with imposed breaks as well.
@tim cronk your point in the video about body comp as free speed was a factor in my late start. I spent the first six weeks of the year losing fat to get that done early. I am at the lowest BF% that I can remember and knew I couldn't work on that during regular training blocks.
@Gary Lewis , again, my own experience... I have usually had a big event or A race in June or July when I've done Arizona. Then, in the summer, I would usually do shorter local races (Sprints and Olys) - which might not be feasible where you live. This had the double effect of keeping my mind off the late season race, and sharpening my high end work on the bike and run. Then, I'd start IM specific training right after Labor Day.
I do much better with training if I have a specific event/race goal I'm working towards. So a Mid Feb OS start to me means either have a 70.3 or half marathon or even just a century ride at the end of May to keep me focussed. Then a week or so down time, start up again with the summer's events in mind, roll that fitness into IM prep phase at the start of Sept
We say it over and over, but one key to IM success is day-to-day consistency in training. Another is recognizing the value of recovery, and how to manage it, like taking one week down every 3-4 months. Down to me does not mean hitting the couch, it means going really light with no specific workout goals, just, say a fun ride with friends for an hour or two, a 5K race, or swimming in a lake with no watch.
As to building plans...I start with an EN plan in Final Surge. It's very easy to shuffle workouts around in the computer version of FS, and also to modify the specifics of each workout (time, distance, intensity). Yeah, I do modify the daily order and specifics of individual workouts to suit my own abilities and known strengths/weaknesses. But I really value having the progression over time which is built into the EN plans, without having to figure that out all on my own.
@matt limbert nice job and thanks for moderating. I'd like to hear more on your experience of trying to accumulate time above 95% vo2max I've managed to crack 10' per week 4 out of the last 9 weeks.
I'd really like to put in a plug for @Rich Stanbaugh here so that when people listen to the webinar they pay close attention. While the remainder was full of best proven practices there was nothing really new here. What Rich was talking about probably had the most potential for "game changing" training metrics and certainly is good stimulus change for any triathlete who already has several years of more traditional training.
@Rich Stanbaugh - can you elaborate a bit on the swim theories of tracking TSS/CTL ? And how it effects our bike/run? I certainly get removing the swim PMC from the bike/run PMC but the relation of that work has to come into play. At some point all stress comes into play, like life, work , strength training, yoga , fun sports, but we cant track everything as TSS so I have stuck to just SBR TSS but removed the Swim chart so I can see the BR chart more clearly and then of course view them all separately .
The Swim - We all talked briefly about the swim , how we track TSS etc, Matt, Al, Jen and Tim all swim a lot and I think year round (coincidence?) . Not sure about Rich . I think the swim is the number one reason we see so many Race Reports of those that "Could NOT,Did NOT" hit the target power for the bike leg of the Ironman. What else could it be if you have completed all of your long bikes, validated your targets over and over again and then on race day cant hit your numbers. In general I believe the swim is underrated , a 1+ hour near all out swim effort comes at a high metabolic cost and effects the rest of your day the 112 mile bike and 26 mile run, it is not just a way to the bike. Yes the rate of return working hard on the swim, is much smaller than it is on the bike/run, but this was about upping your game, while it may not net you a "much" faster swim time it most certainly gets you on the bike fresher, more able to hit your target power numbers, and can pay dividends in time through out your day on the bike/run. IOW it is of my humble opinion working the swim hard may net 1' in swim savings and then 5-10' more through out the remainder of the Ironman Day.
@Jenn Edwards What did your training look like for the 2 weeks leading into your webinar example of falling off a cliff into a deep hole requiring extensive recovery? And then a more broad picture of the 2 weeks before that. I'm specifically interested to see if there was a camp involved? And if not what specifically do you think cracked that egg?
@Al Truscott As we age I guess its inevitable to see power/pace thresholds fall . If we kept the IF's of the wko's the same and the time the same the TSS/CTL would be the same even though the power/pace thresholds are falling. But it certainly makes sense that in addition to power/pace falling the amount of total work and IF will fall as well. I've certainly read enough books/articles about training over 50+ and the requirement of more rest and reduction of HIT. I know you do not take many ZERO days but carefully do easy recovery days. My questions to you are . Over the years you have had TP/WKO . 1. Have you seen a reduction of your IF targets for racing? (I will assume they remain the same for training) 2. Have you found a reduction of the amount of time you can spend at certain IF's for training the bike? 3. When did you back off speed work for the run? 4. Lastly over the years has your CTL peaks shown a downward trend? I ask these because in the middle of the webinar I was wondering if I could still reach and handle a CTL above 150 as easy in my late 50's as I did in my early 50's.
Lightning Round - I thought we were going to have a lightning round question asking for tips/tricks etc. My comment was going to be DO NOT chase PMC numbers during the TAPER.
>> @Rich Stanbaugh- can you elaborate a bit on the swim theories of tracking TSS/CTL ? And how it effects our bike/run? I certainly get removing the swim PMC from the bike/run PMC but the relation of that work has to come into play. At some point all stress comes into play, like life, work , strength training, yoga , fun sports, but we cant track everything as TSS so I have stuck to just SBR TSS but removed the Swim chart so I can see the BR chart more clearly and then of course view them all separately.
@tim cronk - Anything that I say about swimming has to be prefaced with the fact that I am not a good swimmer... I don't even do well on downstream swims (Cozumel / CHOO). My best effort so far was a ≈1:15 at Wisconsin. Because I haven't cracked the code (or maybe just haven't worked hard enough), I typically just 'cruise' the IM Swim knowing that I could give it 50% more effort and that may cause me to slow down!?!
I have a decent feel for the load that my body can take for biking and running. I understand what 100 TSS feels like. I have a decent feeling for what the ramp feels like below 100CTL and at near 150 CTL. But I do not have a feeling for how swimming impacts this. This is why I put in a minimal number for TSS... I just checked, I avg ≈ 5-10 TSS / 1km (depending on how hard I worked). That amount recognizes (in the PMC) that I have done something, but it doesn't have much impact on TSS, TSB, etc.
I think that if I was a better swimmer, I would do what several of you suggested. I would use a fixed amount of TSS per time/distance and I would tack my Swim build. Still - I would track my swim build separately from the ≈150 CTL target that I chase with Bike + Run. While there is, without a doubt, a ton of crossover benefit from swimming to biking / running (core strength and some cardio) ... I don't believe that TSS that comes primarily from my arms/shoulders/back correlates well with the TSS that comes from waist down.
This doesn't mean I am right... just how I understand it.