How to add "unscheduled" VO2 max wkos to EN Plans

Peter Greagg · March 2, 2019 4:05AM

I don't want to derail @Dave Tallo 's post 'Hypothesis and Tweak: I wonder if VO2 bike does me any good' but wanted to engage @Rich Stanbaugh.

I came to a similar views as Rich has been posting in Dave's thread, as evidenced in my initial response to Dave's original post.

When I look at my Power Distribution Curve, my 5 min power is as relatively developed as my 20 min power (evidenced in my WKO4 Power Profile Pack), as are those durations longer than 20 mins. But at durations shorter than 4 mins, my power is relatively undeveloped (read hopeless). And I accept Rich's proposition that, if I worked on these shorter durations, it would be easier to further develop my 20 min power.

Now the Outseason does this to an extent by adding VO2 max sessions (on thursdays when last I looked). Although, I think Rich is suggesting starting to work on very short durations first, and then work your way towards 5 mins. But I am not sure if that is his suggestion?

But how would you add this type of work in season in a Full or Half IM plan?

Oh, and BTW, I can't exercise at the moment as I have had a recurrence of a hernia problem that was repaired in 2013. So this is just theoretical at the moment to me.

Al Truscott · March 2, 2019 9:02PM

@Peter Greagg One thought...unless you're getting Testosterone or HGH supplementation, should you really expect your short-term explosive power to look like a 50-55y/o's (like Rich), much less a 35-40 y/o?

Vignette - today I was in a group ride, hanging tough with a bunch heading into a sprint. I gave it everything I had, maybe getting up into 5w/kg range, and somebody shot by me redlining above 10 for maybe 5 seconds. I felt better when I remembered he's 35...

Sure, we should work on all aspect of power generation from short, explosive micro-bursts through 3-5 hour long steady rides. But I've got to keep things in check at the higher end, if I want to avoid totally crushing my now-fragile kneecaps, recognizing that my HR doesn't go above 160, and remembering my endogenous steroid production is limited.

Rich Stanbaugh · March 3, 2019 5:54PM

@Peter Greagg - I don't know what a "good" number is for any of us. My observations have been related to the relative disproportionate development of people that engage solely in aerobic training. We will all have different physiologies and different "phenotypes" based on our genetics... but I believe that when a person has become well trained at aerobic time durations, but they are disproportionally undertrained at the short durations, there is some relatively low-hanging fruit to be had by doing some hard work at the short time durations.

Al brings up a really good point - we shouldn't do anything that is going to cause pain. As fragile as my body has been as it relates to running injuries, I (know wood) have never been able to pedal hard enough that anything hurt... I just run out of energy, slow down or (occasionally) vomit. But the ankles, knees, hips etc are just fine no matter how hard I push the bike. You should listen to your body and do what it right for you.

The majority of the triathlete data (well-trained athletes) that I have observed shows strong development from about 5 minutes onwards with negligible development under five minutes. Initially, I believed that the small powers under 5 minutes was only because there had not been an effort to do any maximal work under 5 minutes. Starting with myself, I tried to go out and get some "big numbers" under 5 minutes. I found that, initially, I could not generate those powers. I asked other people that I knew - strong triathlon riders - to do the same. They also could not generate the big numbers under 5 minutes.

After a tone of personal trial and error, a ton of reading research on the subject and some "mad science experiments" on brave, willing souls, I've learned:

I have been able to substantially change my own numbers under 5 minutes. Others that have followed the protocol have also improved their numbers under 5 minutes.
Once the numbers under 5 minutes improved, I have been able to extend higher power numbers to longer durations. My lifetime high FTPs attained over the last couple years have all followed some concentrated work building my strength under 5 minutes. This has also been the case with some people that have adopted the workouts.
There are other, less quantifiable, benefits that I have observed or others doing the work have related to me: The ability to recover and ride at high IF after small pushes is improved. Confidence riding higher power numbers increases. TTE / Fatigue Resistance has improved.
If you haven't done it within the last 60ish days (maybe longer for younger athletes)... it does not exist in your current fitness.
The recovery from the short-hard efforts 'feels different' than the extremely hard aerobic efforts. I feel simultaneously fatigued and under worked. It takes a couple days for FRC to fully recover.

I don't understand fully "why" this happens. I've posted links to some of the research that I've read that, in part, supports this approach. I have some ideas / thoughts about why this helps:

There is certain neuromuscular development that happens at these power levels that, once developed, makes us more efficient peddlers at all power levels (similar to how strides improve our running and make us more efficient runners).
There are physiological development related to our cell's ability to clear the metabolites from glycolysis that improves from the short duration, maximal efforts, leading to MLSS (FTP) improvements.
Contrary to some past thinking, we are always simultaneously aerobic and anaerobic. Past thinking was to say "I was anaerobic" or " I am completely aerobic for the entire IM bike." We are always both and the research bears this out. Swimming, biking, running... we are always burning some FRC. What we have really underestimated is the impact of burning a little bit of FRC for a long duration. How many race reports have we read where people do all the training, execute 100% according to plan, but after about 10k are just "flat" on the run? My theory is that, sometimes, this flatness is occurring because we've exhausted our FRC. Even in Race Rehearsals, we do not do a full IM... we never test our FRC until race day. FRC is usefully described as a battery that we use until it is dry. If FRC is too small, that battery goes dead before the end of the race, even though we are doing a sub-threshold effort. Building a Bigger FRC is not so that we can push hard up hills during an IM - it is so that the battery still has some charge left as we trickle it out during the IM run.

The question that I have been struggling with is: How developed should our powers under 5 minutes be relative to our 20-minute onwards powers? Just as I believe that underdevelopment under 5 minutes is detrimental... there is really no evidence that over development under 5 minutes is going to be beneficial. There seems to be a consensus that there are diminishing returns.

I personally target FRC going into a race to be on the order of about 18kJ and I target powers at durations less than 5 minutes to be ≈ 1 category less than my 20-minute category. So, if I am cat 2 at 20 minutes, then I try for Cat 3 at Pmax and gradually fade it into the Cat 2 numbers after 5-minutes or so. Others that I know who are working on these intervals have similar numbers. Early in the season, FRC needs to be higher than 18kJ... because as the FTP increases, the FRC will tend to decrease. My FRC is 21.5 kJ today. My current chart below... this is a little bit of a strange year with the recovery from ankle surgery over Thanksgiving and a recent bout of the flu... but still, the numbers are a start for getting to where I hope to get this year (would love to crack FTP 290-300w @ 155# by the end of the season)

How do I work these intervals into my training?

Early Season: I will try to maintain two days each week of really hard work. Typically I will do around Pmax-FRC (3 minutes and under) on Tuesday and something support VO2 Thursday or later. For VO2, that could be a set of longer intervals, or it could be a Zwift race of up to 45 minutes.

I do try to accumulate 15-minutes per week of at least 95% of VO2. Some of this comes from the intervals some comes from Zwift. I use the "VO2max Pack - Bike" to measure time ≥ 95% VO2. As a general rule, you need about 2x interval time to get the ≥ 95%... so 30' of maximal intervals over a week will yield ≈15' ≥ 95%.

Mid Season: I will continue one day each week of short, maximal intervals. They may be longer, 5-8', but they are still all-out efforts. I start pushing longer efforts on the second hard day, with a progression that will eventually lead me to 90' all-out efforts.

Late Season: I continue one day each week of short, maximal intervals. as above. But now I am focusing on longer, sub-maximal efforts. 2-2.5 hours at 75-80%.

Taper: As I reduce volume, I continue with some short, high intensity efforts. Fewer reps. Short durations. There is a good body of research that says HIT efforts helps stop the decreases in blood volume associated with de-training (Taper).

In the end - you have to do what is right for your body. The ideas that I am sharing seem to work for me (right now), but your own circumstances, health and fitness will help you find what is right for you.

Peter Greagg · March 4, 2019 8:54AM

@Al Truscott Thank you for your reminder - though it is my PDC below 5 mins that is inconsistent with my PDC for 5 mins and longer. I don't expect my 67 year old PDC to be like any body elses.

@Rich Stanbaugh Thank you for your very detailed reply. I really appreciate you going to the trouble of writing it.

This is last year's PDC (which you can hopefully see). Any duration less than 2 mins is so low there isn't even a category to describe it. My FRC is usually around 6-8 kJ. This makes me think that I would benefit greatly from the approach you suggest.

I would like to ask about the specifics of your two 'hard' bike days. You say on Tuesday that you focus on durations of shorter than 3 mins. I am not sure what that means specifically? Do you just hammer away at max somewhere in that duration, or is there something specific you use to target a particular duration?

Do you use 'Coggan's normalised residuals' to help chose a duration, or something else? Or none of the above? (I look for durations where my power is lower than the modeled power, and hammer away at that duration.)

Secondly, what form does Thursday bike have? You mentioned supporting VO2 max, but what specifically?

BTW, I have used TTE to push up my stamina, as you may recall see here https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/23899/possible-use-of-tte-and-stamina-metrics-in-wko4-to-improve-long-course-triathlons#latest

Rich Stanbaugh · March 4, 2019 5:15PM

@Peter Greagg - I'll try to answer how I would approach this if it was my curve, then you can translate that into how you think to best apply that to what works for your. Given that we are different ages, maybe different body types, different strengths / weaknesses... there probably isn't a one size fits all. But here goes:

Goals

I would set training goals for different durations along the PDC. I have an excel calculator that I use to "back into" power targets based on my aspirational 20' power. Using the graph you attached, it looks like about 3.1 w/kg at 20' I would translate these into w/kg targets similar to the following:

Following is how I would think of training days during a bike-focused block with only generally sketching in the run workouts... just doing it to give you an idea. Swim would be on the recovery days (Mon/Wed) and possible a long recovery swim on Friday offset from the bike workout by half a day.
Monday - easy bike followed by easy run off bike
Tuesday Bike - Pmax / FRC Focus. I would use the PDC/MMP curves to target intervals (generally) 3 minutes and under. I would select the intervals in regions where the MMP is less than (below) the PDC. Some notes below on how to setup/ride these
Wednesday - Day off / maybe light spinning from 60'-60' or recovery jogging
Thursday - 30' warmup on bike - Long run day
Friday - VO2 Day. Sign up for a short Zwift race (10km - 30km) and ride it as hard as you can.
Saturday - Long bike
Sunday - 60'-90' steady bike followed by easy run.

To adjust this for a Run-focused block, or as I get to the end of an IM build, I would combine the Pmax/FRC & VO2 into a single day and alternate weeks (one week Pmax/FRC, the next week VO2).

Recovery

These workouts will leave your feeling muscle fatigue / sore, but they typically do not deplete you the way the long, high-intensity cardio workouts do. You will need a recovery / easy day following these workouts

Maximal Efforts

When working Pmax / FRC / VO2 sets, I typically go all-out for the duration. I typically try to get a quick start at a power above my target, then try to hold on and keep average power above the target for then entire interval.
While doing maximal sets, the Pavg on each repeat will diminish, and it will become more and more difficult to hold power. I typically conclude the repeats when I can no longer sustain a Pavg that is ≥ 80% of my first effort

Creating Intervals

A. Use the “PD Curve Watts Chart” ( I don't use Coggan's normalized residuals, because they are just another way of seeing the MMP is below the PDC) to identify areas where the MMP (yellow line) is below the PDC (red line)

B. I generally choose a target power by:

Looking at a recent effort at a shorter duration and extrapolating the power above the PDC,
Looking at the Norm curve (blue line), which is normally substantially above the PDC, then round it up and using that as a guide for new maximal target.
Making a wild-assed guess and trying to go hit that number

C. When creating a workout, rather than doing repeats at the same power, I generally write down a list of target durations, target powers and recovery times.

This motivates me to try to set several new personal bests during a workout
I can compare these to prior years to try to set all-time personal bests, or to be ahead of my training the previous year at the same time

D. Recovery times are based on the "Optimized Interval" chart in WKO4

Declining Power Intervals

A. Longer intervals can be mentally daunting, so I break them into shorter efforts and set incremental targets, each of which is a new maximal effort.

B. Example (based on the image below)

C. I would like to create a new maximal starting at 1:38 and continuing to 5:00. Rather than breaking that into several different efforts, knowing that I could unlikely do different efforts of 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 and 5:00 and achieve new maximals at each, I would do a 5:00 effort with incremental, declining, power targets.

D. My Pnorm at 1:38 is 426w and my MMP(1:00) is 5:01w. I also look at my 2018 data to see that my best effort at MMP(1:30) was 4:32 and MMP(5:00) was 312w… so I would design a Declining Power Intervals with the following targets:

Pstart = 450w
Pavg(1:30) = 425w
Pavg(3:00) = 375w
Pavg(4:00) = 350w
Pavg(5:00) = 325w

E. I may or may not hit these targets. I may hit the first two and then miss them until the 5th one… but by writing a five minute interval in this way, I have given myself a challenge that is mentally easier to get my head around and it gives me intermediate goals during the suffering

F. Normally, I would write these on a piece of tape and stick to my handlebars

How to Pmax

This one takes a little practice to get great numbers.

Find a hill - 3-5% works well for Pmax
Small chain ring with the cassette somewhere between the middle and the hardest gear
Standing balanced in the pedals, let the bike coast until it is nearly stopped (don’t let Garmin pause)...
Explode with everything you have for ≈15sec.
Stand the whole time. Should feel yourself pulling on the handlebars so that you can push the pedals harder.
RPM should get up around 100+ - I normally hit max power around 3"
Shift the cassette if needed to keep the load on the pedals
High RPM and keeping in a gear that has a good load on the pedals is the key
I typically do ≈3x Pmax / 10-15sec all-out effort and taking a 5-8min recovery. These can be done as a part of nearly every ride (I sometimes do them after a warmup on my long ride days).
It is absolutely essential to take a full recovery before the second interval. WKO4 & Andy Coggan says 7-12 minutes. for these super short intervals, you may be ready to go after 6-8min… But you won’t be able to hit very many at the same power without the recovery.
During the rest/recovery - it is literally coasting, spinning or standing at / below below 75w

Garmin Setup

This is very individual, but thought I would share how I have setup my Garmin screen for doing these intervals. i find that the setup below helps me see what I need to see during the interval, to review it afterwards to see when I need to repeat and keeps me aware of the recovery time.
I have a screen that I can use during the interval, to see some information about the previous interval and I can use it to time the recovery intervals.
Power (instantaneous power0 & Lap Pwr. (Pavg for the current lap) are used to target / maintain power during an interval.
Max. Lap Pwr. (Pmax ) s used for me to see the highest measured power during the Pmax sets
Pwr. Last Lap (Pavg last lap) and last Lap (time) used for some real-time feedback about my previous set performance.
Below is screenshot of my Garmin 820 Setup.

Peter Greagg · March 5, 2019 4:27AM

@Rich Stanbaugh

Wow, just wow. This is absolute gold.

Actually this support/help was the reason I joined EN all those years ago.

I don't suppose there is an easy (for you) way to give me a copy of that chart you referenced?

Rich Stanbaugh · March 5, 2019 3:40PM

@Peter Greagg - here is the WKO4 pack of reports that I use (currently). I modify these and delete / add new ones from time to time... but it should have a version of any chart that I've mentioned.

I think the one you are asking about is called "PD Curve Watts Chart - RS."

Rich Bike Dashboard.zip

Paul Hough · March 5, 2019 8:35PM

@Peter Greagg - Do you mind sharing what might have caused the hernia relapse after just 6 years? I just had a right inguinal hernia operation in Nov 18 and would prefer not to experience that joy again. Before operating on me, the doc told me that while he was in there, he would look at the left inguinal hernia I had repaired in 1967 and do that one too if needed. Fortunately, it wasn't needed. So my left side has lasted for 52 years and I would like to get similar mileage out of the right side. :)

Peter Greagg · March 5, 2019 9:18PM

@Paul Hough I am not a medical person. The first hernia just appeared. I don't lift heavy weights, I just do core/glutes/knee/hip work so I can keep running etc. Nothing heavy. Originally the surgeon couldn't offer any insight as to why or how the injury occurred. BTW, I am a little guy, though not as little as Tim Cronk. The repair used mesh.

This time, the hernia, again, just appeared on the same side. I see the surgeon in two weeks and I will post the substance of our discussion.

@Rich Stanbaugh Thank you again for your help and kindness. I will get back on the bike, hopefully, in about 6 weeks, and I will keep you posted as I progress.

Rich Stanbaugh · March 6, 2019 2:56PM

@Peter Greagg - your welcome & I hope you are feeling healthy and fit soon. With my own re-entry coming back from injury, I found it helpful just to build the habit of riding daily for a couple weeks, even if it was only a 15' ride, before thinking abut doing anything more intense. Take care to recover healthy, that's all that really matters!

Paul Hough · March 22, 2019 5:43PM

@Peter Greagg - I can't prove it, but I think my hernia came on last April when I was doing a trainer ride on a route in Mallorca. During the ride, I took an important work related phone call, and quit concentrating on the elevation profile. As I hung up the phone, all of sudden I hit a very steep hill while in the big ring and hard gear on the back. I jumped up on the pedals and the bike doesn't shift well under full load and gave everything I had to clear it; and probably hurt myself at the same time. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I had a mesh repair in November and so far so good. I would hate to go through that again though. I look forward to hearing what your surgeon says.

Peter Greagg · March 22, 2019 11:06PM

@Paul Hough Saw the surgeon yesterday. She said it does happen unfortunately that the mesh sometimes does need to be repaired, as in my case. As in all things medical, she said there are never any absolute guarantees, even to the extent that my mesh repair might need repairing again. Although she said it was highly unlikely.

Neither she or I can work out what caused the original hernia, or this need for mesh repair.

So the takeaway is if you develop a hernia you should get it repaired as it is a dangerous condition. However, the repair its-self cannot be guaranteed. Sometimes the mesh does need to be repaired at some stage down the track. Unfortunately, this is what happened to me.

Surgery scheduled for 23 April, and 4 weeks of only walking after that before I can train again. Just in time for my Outseason.

Paul Hough · March 27, 2019 5:48PM

@Peter Greagg - I'm sorry you are going through that again. I had a good recovery but the first few days after the surgery weren't any fun. Good luck with your surgery and heal fast!

Peter Greagg · April 25, 2019 2:24AM

@Paul Hough Third day after surgery and not feeling too bad. Haven't seen the surgeon since the operation. Was wondering about your recovery?

Paul Hough · April 25, 2019 2:54PM

I think I was fully recovered from the surgery less than 8 weeks later. It went very well. I had read several threads on recovery from hernia repair on SlowTwitch and a Cycling Forum. The information from those sources was far more instructive than anything I got from the hospital or the surgeon. The main thing was not to rush back to running which puts a lot of stress on the mesh. It needs to heal completely. I don't feel anything out of sorts from the area now.

However, my right knee is a different story (I had a blow out during a run last week) as I have arthritis in it and a fraying meniscus that is causing problems. The doctor told me to keep on running as much as I can, but to recognize that my running days are numbered. This may be my last year doing full distance triathlons.

Peter Greagg · April 25, 2019 3:17PM

@Paul Hough Thanks for the tip re Slow Twitch and so on. Actually from memory, in 2014 my surgeon had me running again in 4 weeks. I wonder whether that may have been an influence in the re-occurrence? I will have a read.

Sorry to hear about your knee. Like you, my body, particularly my right knee, is telling me that my retirement from running can't be that far in to the future.

I had a meniscus tear in my right knee back in the 1970s, that needed the 'old-school' repair(pre-arthroscope times) and it has never been the same. I take 4,000 mgs of fish oil and 1,500 mg Glucosamine daily that provides some assistance. Also, core/glute/quad/knee work also appears to have helped.

Paul Hough · April 25, 2019 4:05PM

@Peter Greagg - I do not have a tear, but the meniscus is fraying and the edges are rough. He thinks a piece may have got between the bones and caused a pop last week when I was 11 miles into a 12 mile run (I walked home). He noted that arthroscopic cutting of the meniscus used to be standard medicine but is now seen as an error. I've been on the fish oil and Glucosomine already but am stepping up the quad work. Next step if there is a reoccurrence would be a MRI and steroid shot to the knee. But in the long run, I'm heading to the aqua biker ranks.

Al Truscott · April 26, 2019 3:59PM

@Peter Greagg @Paul Hough I'm a late onset runner (never ran a step until age 50), but I think my youth as a breaststroker, my 50-year skiing career, and my life-long weight lifting all contributed to the osteoporosis arthritis/chonromalacia I've been suffering from for 15 months now. I had an MRI a year ago which showed that my menisci are (relatively) fine, but my right knee suffers from a combination of swelling and softness in the femur and patella, along with very significant erosion of the cartilege between them (almost bone-on-bone). I have chronic swelling of that knee, and loss of muscle mass in the R quad, along with substantial differential (about 56/44) between the wattage produced by individual legs when cycling (PowerTap pedal data).

But the orthopedist and sports medicine MD both told me I could run as much as I wanted, tempered by pain. Volume and speed were risk factors, however, and some exercises such as lunges and knee extension machines are verboten.

It's been a process of discovering what I can handle both when training and racing. I think my future in Ironman is very limited - I just don't want to continue trying to fight this with the long runs involved. But running 45-60' a day works OK for me, as well as "racing" half marathons (about 30-40s a mile slower than what I would anticipate based on races from just two years ago.)

I try to do 30-40 minutes a day, 4-5 days/week, of stretching and body-weight activity to strengthen the muscles auxiliary to the quads: core, hip, ad- and ab-ductors, using stretch cords. I continued to use leg squat machines, but I think that is becoming problematic and just last week decided to stop when I saw the effect it was having on the next day's run. I also am wearing patellar stabilization knee wraps (just below the patella) on both knees now when running, and trying it while biking as well. These are not huge braces, but simple straps which are about 1" wide. Those all seem to help - things have not gotten any worse in the last nine months, and I feel marginally better when running. I can even do a few strides at the end of runs, but I haven't tried to really open it up on longer intervals such as 800s. Nor have I run longer than 12 miles at a time, despite having a triathlon in a week with 18 miles at the end. We'll see how THAT goes. My assumption is that my racing brain will take over, and push me through it, unless the knee actually breaks.

Paul Hough · April 26, 2019 5:02PM

@Al Truscott - X rays of my right knee came back with a diagnosis of osteoarthritis, a worn patella knee cap, and peripheral vascular disease. The sports orthopedist gave me similar instruction as you - run as much as I can tempered by pain. I have the knee straps; just need to remember to wear them when I run. He wants me to do more quad work too. Knee extensions are fine but with lower weight. We'll see how it goes. Are you racing Pontevedra?

Al Truscott · April 26, 2019 7:58PM

@Paul Hough Yes I will be racing there May 4. Another knee test. I'm feeling fairly confident, but it appears to be a killer bike course - 3 loops with 1850' elevation gain each totalling 113 km. Good weather, though, 60s/70s F

Peter Greagg · July 7, 2019 6:14AM

@Rich Stanbaugh First up, thank you again for going to the trouble to sketch out this 'novel' approach to building bike fitness.

Because my hernia was a repeat from 2013, my surgeon was super conservative about my return to training. Including the gap from self diagnosis, to waiting to see the surgeon, the the wait until surgery, and then my recovery, it has been 6 months since I last trained.

I have done two weeks of training. Swimming ins't too bad with my CSS only increasing by 10%, to 2:23 per 100 metres. Running is terrible, but I am just doing short and slow wkos 6 times a week. For cycling, I have been doing Pmax sessions (Tues, Thurs, Sat). Last season my best Pmax was 605 watts. After just 6 sessions, my Pmax is 735 watts. The improvement must be neural adaption as there hasn't been time for muscle improvement (particularly as the subject is 67 years old).

Planning my next season, I will aim for a 70.3 in early May 2020 as my A race. I will test my speed at an extended oly (1500 m swim, 60 km bike and 10 km run) In late Feb.

So I have a lengthy period until I need to start thinking about racing. So, given your advice regarding weekly anaerobic work of 15 mins @ >= 95% of power @ VO2 max, I thought two of these sessions a week (Thurs and Sat), and a Pmax/FRC session on Mondays.

At the same time I will continue to rebuild my running, and getting back into swimming (stroke correction).

What do you think?

Rich Stanbaugh · July 7, 2019 9:55PM

@Peter Greagg - Sounds like a good plan. My advice would be that you are super conservative with rest and recovery... If was me, I would try to get two days between the high intensity so that you get a better recovery (Tuesday or Wednesday and Saturday?).

Pmax adoption comes pretty quickly - I also suspect that technique and neural adoption happen first. Like running strides, the Pmax sessions seem to help my technique on longer intervals.

Good luck!

Peter Greagg · July 7, 2019 10:37PM

@Rich Stanbaugh Thanks for the encouragement, and the tip. Tues and Sat for the VO2 max sessions then, with the Pmax on Thurs.

For the VO2 max sessions, I understand your approach to the work part (try for max at 1 min, then 1.5 min, then 2 min and so on in the one 'interval'). I assume you use the WKO4 work/rest ratio (1:1.2) - meaning if you end up with the work part being 2 mins (trying for peaks @ 1, 1.5, 2 etc), then the rest part would be 2 x 1.2 = 2.4 mins?

BTW, WKO4 has always had me as a TTer until now. It now thinks I am a pursuiter LOL.

Rich Stanbaugh · July 8, 2019 4:11PM

@Peter Greagg - Here is the chart I use for planning recovery times;

So, if you are doing the short intervals (0:30,1:00, 1:30, 2:00, etc) at maximal power, these are really Pmax and/or FRC intervals. You need a full recovery between each interval, even if that means something on the order of 20x (Pmax) - 10x (FRC) the interval seconds.

If you are targeting VO2 Max Aerobic, the goal is to accumulate X minutes of time-in-zone each week measured at ≥95% power at VO2max.I use the 'Relative VO2max Chart' at the workout level to determine how much time above 95% I accumulate for each workout.

If you are using really short intervals to accumulate VO2max, like 1:00-2:00, then the recovery intervals will have to be really short in order to accumulate time at/above VO2; 1:1 maximum, but more like 1:0.5 and your power should be just above the VO2 power you see in WKO4. With a 1’ interval, you’ll be getting about 30” of time above 95%. If you shorten the recovery, then you can extend that to something close to 45”.

I typically use short intervals to focus on FRC, eg 1’ max with 8’-12’ recovery, and longer intervals to accumulate VO2, eg 5’-10’ with 1:1+ recovery. Trying to accumulate enough VO2max time is theoretically possible with very short intervals... but I cannot do enough of them before the high powers and short recovery exhaust me.

FWIW... WKO4 says that I am a 'Sprinter' phenotype now ! 😂😂😂

Peter Greagg · October 10, 2019 7:32AM

@Rich Stanbaugh @tim cronk

Just thought I would provide a quick update.

No training at all for 6 whole months. Then 4 weeks of easy unstructured training.

I started this program seriously about 8 weeks ago. It has been a bit start- stop as I got the flu, then pushed a bit hard and had to take a week off, etc.

But, notwithstanding all that, I am now at my all time high power numbers from 1 sec to 25 secs, and my FRC is also at an all time high of 9.2 (previous max was 6.7).

I am very happy so far. At present I am just focusing on durations below 3 mins (which is around 220 watts, which is my power at VO2 max at the moment).

I has taken a fair bit of trial and error to work out how to rackup 15 mins @ 95% of power at VO2 max per week, as well as the technique that works for me to train Pmax (I need to use the 50 chain ring and the middle of the rear cassette to make good power. I have a weak right knee that I need to be careful with).

I think I have this sorted out now and am looking forward to more of this type of work.

I have a sprint triathlon in 7 weeks, so I will do some longer intervals in 4 weeks.

Thanks again for all your help and encouragement.

Tim (or Rich), could you paste here the chart that lists the three best power numbers over a range of durations (I am too lazy to code it myself)?

Rich Stanbaugh · October 23, 2019 8:50PM

@Peter Greagg This is great - sounds like you are really making progress!

I'm not sure I have the chart you are looking for - I've moved to wko5 and spend a lot of time looking for stuff. Also not sure that things I have updated in wko5 work on wko4 anymore. I can't seem to attach a chart here; if you email me, I will send you what I think you are looking for. rstanbaugh@gmail.com

Peter Greagg · November 11, 2019 3:52AM

@Rich Stanbaugh email sent a little while ago.

My address is peter.greagg@gmail.com (creative don't you think?).

BTW, any lurkers out there, I have been training seriously (but in a free form, made up sort of way) since August.

My FTP was 150 watts (don't laugh) when I started. Last Saturday was the first interval of sustained power longer than 5 mins, I did a 40 min time trial, then immediately went to zone 3 for 45 mins. According to WKO4, my FTP is now 170 watts.

I don't plan to start building my FTP specifically until January. My A Race is May 3. I am feeling very positive about this plan, noting my FTP last December peaked at 185 watts (and 195 watts in September 2017).

How to add "unscheduled" VO2 max wkos to EN Plans

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