Pickle Juice and it's effect on endurance training/racing
No clue if this source is credible, but the first time I hear this was on the "Science of Ultra" Podcast. And then again, more recently in a youtube video featuring Courtney Dauwalter. And people, if you dont know who Courtney Dauwalter is, google her. IMO she is THE most badass ultra runner bar none.
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not to be the first one to comment on my own post but...
"Courtney Dauwalter (born February 13, 1985) is an American ultramarathon runner. She finished the Moab 240 race in 2 days, 9 hours, and 59 minutes, faster than any of the men in the pack and beating the second-place finisher by more than 10 hours."
The effectiveness of Pickle Juice is old news; I've been touting its benefits on EN for many years. The stuff is disgusting, but after years of cramping I finally threw in the towel and tried it after nothing else worked. However, I buy the slightly smoother tasting garbage from here: https://www.picklepower.com/
For a hot race, I drink one the night before and the morning of the race. I will also take a PickleJuice "shot" in T1 and T2 and put another in my special needs bag for the run.
@Paul Hough first of all : "Tampa, Florida (suck it!)" is awesome! Personally I hate Florida, but if you love where you're from or living, sing it's praise baby!!
More importantly, am I reading this correctly? At first you were just straight up pickle juice (like from a jar of pickles from the grocery) and then you went to https://www.picklepower.com/ ?
And you never mentioned if you like it or love it (in terms of its effectiveness)?
"The effectiveness of Pickle Juice is old news;" I am sure this is so true as I am usually extremely late to the party :)
This weekend is my last big weekend of training with 4hrs on Saturday and 5hrs on Sunday. I'd like to give it a try on those runs if needed if you can vouch for it's effectiveness.
CAN SOMEONE SECOND PAUL??
Discovered it many years ago here in North TX at our annual Hotter n Hell 100 century ride, in August, in Wichita Falls (routinely above 100*F). Saved my a$$ drinking that nasty concoction!
I'll use it sometimes on some of the rallies/fondos here when/if I stop at rest stops.
HINT: it's much better cold than warm!
Ahh Thanks @Scott Alexander
Was that using the picklepower power product, or just straight up pickle juice?
@Patrick Large - no, I never drank it from a pickle jar, but the article seemed to imply that and I've talked with a few people who do. After trying everything else, I started with the product from Golden PickleJuice Sport (now pickle power). I would not say it's 100% effective; but I would say that my incidence of cramping is reduced 80-90%. I will get through some races with no cramping and others just some mild ones. But the days when I might be hanging on to a fence for two minutes of agony are in the past since I started using it.
HotShot is another product that is trying to use the same theory to shock neuro-receptors back into line - but with a pepper extract instead of vinegar . I was looking to get away from pickle juice so I tried it but it wasn't nearly as effective (For Me) so back to PickleJuice Shots for me. Some people swear by Base Salt too. Yeah, I tried it. The reality is that everyone is different and you have to find what works for you. So it's 2019 and I already ordered another case of PickleJuiceShots to get me through the year. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do - even if that crap tastes disgusting. :)
@Paul Hough yes this makers more sense now.
However I would put Base Performance in the same category as Tailwind. I see it more as hydration and electrolytes (specifically sodium), rather than something like vinegar that will shock neuro-receptors.
From what I've read there needs to be the "shock". I am not sure if matters what gives the shock, but pretty sure it isn't Base-
@Patrick Large - Base doesn't have a shocker in it like PickleJuiceSport or HotShot, but it's in-between those products and a salt pill because you are putting the salt directly on your tongue. They think it aids absorption and does something 'more' than a regular salt pill. My experience is that it is nothing more than a salt pill w/o the capsule and no more effective. But there are a lot of people who swear by it - especially people from the midwest for some reason.
@Paul Hough I have a friend and ex-teammate who is an ambassador, so I know a lot of Kool-Aid drinkers. :)
I've heard of the benefits too. I tried pickle juice straight from the jar (in T2) once during a hot race years ago and my stomach didn't like it. It made me sick. Haven't used it since. My only advice (lesson learn) is nothing new on race day. If you're going to use it in a race, train with it.
thanks @Derrek Sanks Of course nothing new on race day! Ive got a big weekend of training so I was going to try it this weekend. Also maybe during the week to see if I can just drink straight up pickle juice period.
@Derrek Sanks - that's why you need the special stuff at PicklePower.com!
There is nothing like a gel flask full of warm sweaty pickle juice to make you wonder why you do this stuff! Does seem to work though. It has baled me out!
The founders of what-is-now-called "Pickle Juice", the first company to package and market it, started right here in North TX.
Back when I first tried it, it was basically straight up pickle juice at that point., not quite ready for retail sales.
Here is a novel explanation of how the vinegar in pickle juice works. https://bodybio.com/blog/taking-a-peek-inside-a-muscle-cramp/?known=true
In summary. When you are cramping there is an imbalance of sodium, magnesium and potassium.
"Cramps are a one way street in the complete cycle of muscle action. All body motion is controlled by the opening and closing of ion channels that sit in the membranes of all cells. Sodium (Na) contracts the cell and potassium (K) relaxes it."
"A number of coaches have tried “pickle juice” to prevent cramping in hot weather. Pickle juice is predominantly vinegar. Vinegar is acetic acid, and is used to remove sodium (Na) with individuals with high blood sodium levels. The coaches are lowering their athletes Na levels to prevent the first half of the muscle cycle instead of making sure that they have enough of all the electrolytes needed. Lower Na and you may not begin the cramp. Not exactly what the doctor ordered, but it can work." .... temporary fix.
So to prevent a muscle cramp .... if you have a high sweat rate you have a higher chance of creating this imbalance of sodium-magnesium-potassium. Look at your hydration products. Are all electrolytes included? Don't just focus on sodium.
@Sheila Leard Thanks for that info. What are your thoughts on Precision Hydration?
@Sheila Leard thanks for the article. It explains why using magnesium helps with cramping. I've used liquid magnesium as a topical application during races for cramping with good results.
@Sheila Leard Thanks for this, I am now looking into my hydration products after yet another cramp attack swimming this morning, the High5 drink I use turns out to only have Sodium & no potassium. Great info thanks again.
@Derrek Sanks Precision has some good products. The powder has a nice profile. It's very similar to NUUN Endurance.
Skratch, NBS and OSMO are also good. All have a some sugar to help absorption, no maltodextrin and fructose.
Base Performance Hydro drink only has sodium.
@Sheila Leard Thanks!
@Patrick Large Courtney Dauwalter is the Chrissie Wellington of Ultra. We met her in Moab right after she won a 50 miler and set a new course record. Happy, modest, and down to earth BAMF, she is. Love her!
At the recent Kitt Peak trail run I did put on my the Tohono O’odham Nation in Arizona had pickles, pickle juice in cups, packets of mustard, and saladitos at the aid stations. Saladitos are dried salted plums and quite popular among the natives usually served with lemon or orange, it’s like putting a teaspoon of salt into your mouth . I just nibbled on them little bit at a time.
@tim cronk yes and no on the Courtney vs Chrissie thing... Although both are Badass, super accomplished, and super humble, I'd have to guess that one has a near flawless training / nutrition routine, with hours and hours of data to work off and fine tune, while the other pounds nachos, shitty beer, runs in basketball shorts, and if I am correct has no real training plan or watch to even gauge pace/effort, etc.
I have my last long run tomorrow (5 hours) and will take some pickle juice with me. I want to see if 1. it has any benefit for me and 2. If I will puke.
BTW, do you live in AZ?
One of the things I've learned over the years is that scientists do not really know what causes cramping. It's not the same thing with everyone and is just as likely caused by overworking muscles as it is by some sort of calcium-sodium-magnesium deficiency.
The proof that pickle juice is working on neuro-receptors as opposed to solving an electrolyte shortage or imbalance was proven in a study where they electronically induced a big toe cramp on the subjects and then gave the subject pickle juice. Most test subjects had the cramp ago within 30-60 seconds; far far faster than electrolytes could possibly be absorbed to fix a deficit or imbalance.
But the key thing is that you have to experiment until you find what works best for you.
@Paul Hough thanks for the input
"Most test subjects had the cramp ago within 30-60 seconds; far far faster than electrolytes could possibly be absorbed to fix a deficit or imbalance" is more what I was thinking.
But yes "the key thing is that you have to experiment until you find what works best for you."
I agree.