Trouble Holding Watts on Long Challenge Rides
Hi all! New member, first question. Thanks @matt limbert for the steer.
I'm on week 14 of a modified 20 week Half Aquabike plan while I wait for a foot injury to heal and release from run jail. My problem is that I'm having trouble holding the suggested watts in the second half of the 3+hour challenge rides each week. My FTP is 252w.
Last week I rode on hilly roads in upstate NY and was barely able to hang on for the second long z3-z4 interval but fried myself for the rest of the ride in the process. The week prior, it was worse. I was on my trainer and didn't make it out of the second long z3-z4 interval (I was also a bit tired from a split long run the day before).
The power/hr charts are embedded below, but you can see that the one commonality is that I let my HR drift up into the low 160s in the early, harder, intervals. I know from experience that on race day i need to keep it <150bpm (and preferably <145bpm) to have any hope of success of the run. But these workouts are not triathlons.
I have two questions for the team:
- How should I balance HR and power in workouts like these? I plan on targeting MIN(z3 watts, 145bpm) during my race but it seems to me that I'm supposed to be going harder during these sessions. Maybe I put a hard cap on my HR (say at 158, 150 and 145 for each set) even if I can't hold the wattage?
- In the team's experience is there likely something else at play here? I'm fueling as I have been (2 eggs on eng muffin, yogurt, granola, fruit and coffee before; 3 bottles in the first hour, 2 the second and 1-2/hr after that; alternate mini cliff bar, bloks and banana every 30mins) no stomach problems although I do find it hard to keep up nutrition when I'm in z4. Is it as simple as making sure I have a light day prior to doing one of these rides?
Thanks in advance...I'm psyched to be here!
7/18/19 Trainer Ride - disaster!
7/27/19 Hills Ride - better but not good
Comments
lots of questions to help answer your question.. but you did come to the right place!!!
did you do your FTP test indoors or outdoors? same bike?
indoor FTP is usually lower than outdoor FTP for most people. anywhere from 10 watts to 10% and those 10 watts can be killer in a long interval.
Reaching High HR in an FTP interval IS important, you ARE supposed to do that... you will get used to it.
Riding intervals outdoors on any variable terrain is definitely not easy and a skill to be learned, so give yourself that as well!
Looking forward to seeing what others add.
Where upstate are you? can you give us a link to your strava to follow and look at the rides more?
when is your race? not sure what current guidance is on HIM wattage, but Z3 might be high? (might not be)
Hi Scott and thanks!
The challenge rides are tough, character building workouts and you'll be thankful you suffered through them come race day.
First, I think you need to build up to these intervals. When I started doing these last year, I started with shorter intervals. Something like 3 x 20 mins at 90% of FTP, 10 min recovery (remaining time at Z1-Z2), then the next week 2x30 mins at 90%. I worked up to 2x40, then 2x50 mins at 90%.
Second, for me it is easier to hold 90% on the trainer, than outside. Mostly, because of the terrain. Any downhills would lower my NP, then I would work harder than 90% to get my watts back up. Also, riding at 90% FTP outside had me at speeds there were not always safe for some road/traffic conditions. So, most of these were done on the trainer.
Third, if you're training by power, then focus on power. I would not worry about HR or reduce effort based on HR unless you're in hot/humid conditions outside. You should see your HR come down as you adapt to these workouts and get fitter.
Thanks!
What I’m getting from the above is
Just what I was
Two further thoughts:
• Building on what Derrek said, I think of the training pans as a progression. I am working each week to get a little closer to the fitness I will need on race day. As that progression builds, my capabilities assuing I am hitting all the workouts, will improve.
• Each and every workout is an opportunity to get in touch with my body a little better. Learning precisely what perceived level of exertion and/or power level I can sustain for a given length of time is an on-going process. Sometimes I will over shoot, sometimes I will go too easy. But after a few months, I will be much better at nailing the correct effort level for the length of any given interval. Then, on race day I can call on that inner knowledge to keep me going and keep me steady.
Thanks @Al Truscott !
Following up, I just got finished w/ this week's ride and it went great, thanks for everybody's help!
II let the HR rise and it was in the dreaded low 160s a few times. I was hurting, but it didn't fry me.
I built the workout on zwift so the 30' z3-z4 intervals were broken down into 6x5' sections rising from low z3 into the top of z4 over the course of the 30'. This kept me honest - I want the XP so doing it this way keept me from cheating higher. Speaking of cheating higher, I didn't cheat higher on the rest intervals, either. I used them to make sure I was on my fueling schedule, to get aero (if I'd been sitting up) and to breathe deeply to get the HR down.
Just adding to the above....
Sweet Spot Is alot more about Tolerance than Pure Fitness. High Z3-Low Z4 is Kinda a "grey zone for FTP improvement ant Pure "endurance at Much lower Z2 or Higher High Z4 + WKOs will get better improvements on either end of "fitness" (Lots of other info on that elsewhere).... However the Point is to Get Mind/Body use to the Race paced continuous effort At this level.
Doing Longer than Z4 efforts with minimal "incomplete" (hr not returning to below Z2) and shorter duration build mental and physical perseverance. They Should feel challenging to hold for ful duration but not impossible. Because they are both long-ish and hard-ish you Will feel more gassed for 2-3 days post (why not done frequently). Ive found doing More shorter efforts and slowly adding time to each maxing out at 30-45 min each and then shortening the RI make race day effort at similar PWR feel very sustainable and familiar.
My Indoor PWR is about 10w at FTP lower and I find getting HR up slower and it stays up longer VS outside and Indoor RPE is always higher. [Long SS efforts indoors definitely build mental resilience LOL]
As example At IM70.3 Indian Wells I was able to Hold ~200w rock steady 2:34 [rode on rear flat x 10 miles too] (at IF .88 and HR 150 AVE steady (low Z3) after multiple SS 185-210w base on 235FTP building from 8" sets to 4x 30"etc (2-4" RI) and Long 3+ hr Spinervals like Tough Love in SS zone (lots of 5" and up to 30 min mixed gear sets )...Even on the long climb and little bit of rollers. I also did at least 3 full RR to dial in planned Race PWR with ROB to asses leg feel. Early on in training block it is OK to go a bit harder example: (HR was usually hitting 156ish on longer sets indoors (THR ~162)and some high spin sets Up to 162.... with goal of later -closer to race goal to hold steadier even with hills etc
Again to contrast "FTP WKOS" Ie Z4 Should be "Harder" and roughly At and even a bit ABOVE FTP with longer LOWER EFFORT RI's. HR should be up at and above your 20 min test time result. These are to Push UP your LT and are less about sustainability- Though that will improve as well with frequency of training.
Good Luck!