New Bike or Keep the OLD? Need input please
I have the P5X and though a lovely bike, I'm not sure it's a good selection for me. It's about 4-5 pounds heavier than my previous P3 at 18-19lbs and I've been challenged on hilly bike courses. Getting up and over hilly terrain even with maximizing downhills and flats where it excels, requires me to go far beyond my FTP increasing the energy costs of a hilly course.
I need to decide very soon if I keep the P5X for flat courses and get a basic build for hilly courses, or sell the P5X, a set of ENVE 4.5 & 7.8 25c wheels, and my P3 to put down on a bike that will do it all. My current P3 frame is too big for me.
If you think I should have one bike that does it all, what do you recommend that's light? I need a small or 48cm frame.
I believe the Ventum comes in at 20lbs with cages.
Comments
@Sue DeJesus My friend has a P5X and said he wouldn't buy it again.
I love my Cervelo P3. I have bike envy of the new P5's. If I started over I would go with a P5 and of course Di2. Not sold on disc brakes for a TT bike, though that's the way it's going.
@Sue DeJesus I had a great experience using TTbikefit.com - they are in RI. Practically neighbors with Coach P 😉. But, isn't everyone in RI! Todd does a great job. He has a unique fit bike. It can move the seat, handlebars, bottom bracket independently so you can find the geometry that works for you - he designed and patented it. Vertexfitcycle (http://vertexfitsystems.com/). The bike also will measure power - so you can optimize your position for comfort and power! He is an independent fitter - meaning he will not fit you to any particular brand. He will take your measurements and then show you bikes that can accommodate you fit dimensions. The bike fits you vs you fit a bike. He has all kinds of bikes in a database and can tell you if a cockpit change can be made or not, weight, cost, etc. He also has multiple seats to try or you can bring your own. It was worth every minute. TTbikefit is listed on the EN sponsor page.
Thanks! @matt limbert I'll keep that in mind. My question is not so much with fit, but more what lighter bike might be a better option for the power I'm able to generate.
Thanks! @Sheila Leard I love the Di2, and actually prefer the disc brakes if I can. The rim brakes I have on my old P3 would be iffy when wet, and have had some scary descents. So if you every have opportunity to try them out you might find you like them!
I have opportunity to sell my P5X but will only get about half what I paid, but wonder if I should just put that to something lighter.
In the Cervelo family, the two bikes that may fit your needs are the P5 disc or the new P3X/PX-series bikes. It depends on how much you carry in a race. If you get by with a bottle between the armrests and a bottle behind the saddle, plus whatever you can fit in the bento box then the P5 disc is the right answer. it's going to be lighter and faster than pretty much anything else out there. If you need to carry more than that, then you might want to look at the P3X/PX-series bikes. They're lighter and stiffer than the P5X (though still not quite as light as the P5 disc) and can carry as much stuff.
@John Katsoudas Thanks! this is very helpful information!
@Sue DeJesus - can you tell us a bit about the use case(s) for your riding?
@Dave Tallo I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "use case(s)" for my riding. What information are you asking for?
Sorry Sue - what types of courses do you ride? What is your local terrain?
If it helps, I would say that weight, for most of the courses that we actually race and train on, is a very inconsequential consideration. Out of curiosity, I ran the numbers in Best Bike Split to model the difference in bike time on the hilliest (IM) course I have ever raced, and the 'cost' of 4 extra pounds was 42 seconds. On a less hilly course (Kona), it came to something like 18 seconds. Which I would guess would be eclipsed by the aero savings from a superbike like the p5x versus, well, pretty much anything out there. Again, these are my numbers, but they are a good illustration.
Definitely disagree with one bike for flat, and a separate bike for not flat courses. Unless you own a bike shop. If you're itching for a new bike, I feel like there really isn't anything that the new range of Ps from Cervelo can't do. However, if a major driver is weight, I don't think the Ventum is the best choice.
@Sue DeJesus sounds more like a cassette/chainring combo you should be considering. I put a compact and 11-32 on for IMLP and changed it back this week for IMAZ. The correct gearing is what will get you over the hills.
Thanks @Dave Tallo ! You have some interesting stats regarding weight costs! I think considering I'm 68, female, with limited muscle power on the bike, I'm guessing, but think the weight of my bike will impact me more significantly than a 45yo man who can generate MUCH more power to the pedals even though I weigh less. And what speed am I able to race at consistently? In my case I'm guessing bike weight will trump aero advantages only because I race at less than 20mph on the flats, get going about 38mph on the downhill, and grind up steeper climbs at 8-9mph. And for safety reasons in my area I do 95% of my training indoors on a trainer. To get to steeper hills I have to drive 30-40 minutes and the traffic is scary.
Since getting the P5X I've had trouble getting up and over moderate hills, like Chattanooga. Coming from my P3 at 18-19lbs and Q-rings on a compact 11-28 where it was much easier and I believe went faster with less energy cost. I don't want to be limited in my race choice by my bike. I like rolling bike courses and usually can gain enough momentum getting into a hill that it's just the last portion of steeper climbs where I have to go way above my FTP to get up and over. In an IM that's a lot of extra energy spent. So I've decided, like you recommend, that one bike should do it all. And I want to love my bike, and I don't love it.
@Gary Lewis I agree, I need to look at the cassette/chainring combo. My P5X has a compact with 11-28 cassette and that's not enough to spin up the moderate hills. What do you recommend? I'm also looking at the Absolute Black Oval rings in a compact, but wonder about the subcompact, but that will create problems with what power meter can go with a subcompact - I think only pedal or hub PM. I've enjoyed the Power2Max PM that I currently have on the P5X. I had Q-rings on my P3 and liked them.
@Sue DeJesus - thanks for the background. Aero can make up for a lot of weight sins: out of curiosity, I ran a model of a 130lbs racer pushing an avg power of 119 watts on the same course. When I ran scenario 1, BBS gave me a bike split of 6:18:15. When I ran a second scenario with a 4 pound reduction (but a 1% increase in drag) ... 6:18:01.
Have your tried a 11-32 or 11-36 cassette?
@Dave Tallo Wow. quite interesting with the BBS scenarios! If you run it with 98w at 134 lbs in the same manner, what do you get? I've been considering something like a 11-32 or 11-36, and wondered if I paired that with a sub-compact set, would that help climbing yet not compromise downhill and flat speeds. I don't know how to figure out the best combination. What do you think?
@Sue DeJesus - this is an interesting thread. The received wisdom is that aero always trumps weights except perhaps on the very steepest alpine climbs. That said, if you want some of the lightest frames out there then you are talking about Quintano Roo, particularly the PR6 (and I have no vested interest in them, nor do I ride one). Re Ventum - the Kona bike count is speaking volumes.
Notwithstanding @Dave Tallo's comment on having two bikes, I do use a separate bike for flat courses and hilly courses. My flat course bike is a 2010 Giant Advanced Trinity SL1. It is one of the very first super bikes. But like the original Trek Speed Concept, it is a bear to disassemble for packing so I got another one that was easier to transport. A few years ago I converted my Giant to a 1x10 drive and dumped the front DR and small chainring ... now it's even cleaner and faster. I will be racing it again at USAT nationals next month (at the very flat MiamiMan course).
Re disc brakes. They are going to add a little weight and probably a little drag but they are unquestionably the current standard. I'm unwilling to shift to them because I like swapping wheels between my 4 bikes which are all rim brakes. If I am racing a hilly, technical course, then I use my HED Jet 6 wheels with aluminum brake track and all is good. HED Jet Black wheels are just as fast as any out there at a fraction of the cost and brake as well as discs. I'm not trying to push you away from discs if that makes you more comfortable, but if you want to go all weight weeny on the next bike, then it doesn't make sense to me to use discs especially when there are great solutions out there. Check this article out: https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/components/wheels/wheel-sets/hed-jet-6-black-review/
@Paul Hough Thanks so much for your input. You've made me be open to having no disc brakes. A very good article! :)
@Sue DeJesus
I've been riding a P5 for a couple years and while I love the bike and its my main outdoor training rider (Felt B12 on the Kickr Snap for Zwift), I experienced similar on hills. Down and on flats, fast as can be. But hills are a different, especially as someone a little bit larger (6' @175). And once you add on the hydration, flat kits, and other stuff, it can get a bit heavy.
As someone with P5X, I'm going to assume budget isn't a primary concern.
After many a conversation with Dan Kennison, I finally pulled the trigger and got the Premier Tactical. I gotta say, this bike is a rocket ship. Its fast and smooth beyond compare with anything else I've ridden. And the way its engineered, fitting and adjusting the bike is a breeze and you can fiddle with it on your own to make little tweaks here and there in just a couple minutes.
I live in a hilly area and hills I used to dread I now look forward to getting strava segment PRs on. Give it a look.
On Edit: Just saw the "gearing and cassette comment" above.
On the P5 I have the Rotor Q Rings (which I love!) and its a 53 for the big ring, and run a 11/28 on the back. With the Tactical, I'm running a 53 on the front and an 11/23. Never in a million years would I dare put a 23 on the P5. But I fly up the hills even with that gearing. I don't know what the little ring is. Whatever the standard is with a 53 big ring. Its not something I use often. Also, its never happened with the P5, but I've come damn close to spinning out when in the 23 cog on fairly flat to slightly down gradient.
@Sue DeJesus
i came up with
scenario 1 6:55:03
Scenario 2 6:53:37 (1% increase drag, 3 pounds lighter)
Thanks @Dave Tallo really interesting numbers!
Thanks @Brian Terwilliger I looked at the Premier Tactical. Impressive ride! Good gearing ideas. I'll be talking with my LBS to finalize my choices. Maybe this week!
@Sue DeJesus I would make one more comment on revisiting your best geometry in order to optimize your power before you pick the bike. A steeper seat angle may make it harder to climb and you may be forced into that position if the reach is too long. A slacker seat angle may make it easier to climb but harder to get into a low aero position. In this video, Todd goes through a range of seat angles and reach with a women rider that already rides on shorter cranks. He explains hip angle and how he finds the best geometry (seat angle, crank length, reach, stack, etc) for the your power and comfort. You can use that information to decide on what bike offers you the the right geometry for optimal power and comfort.
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Cervelo_P5X_Weight_P6582938/
@matt limbert Oh my! that video was so interesting!! Thank you for that. I wasn't aware of the impact and it's affect on climbing ability. I've shot an email to my bike fitter who will be ordering my bike. Thank you so much!
@matt limbert that looks like a pretty cool fit device, but I"m confused by how he chooses to measure hip angle. Measuring it relative to an imaginary horizontal line, IMO, totally misses the point. Hip angle is only relevant as it relates to torso angle. Now, if he's accustomed to dealing with only pro riders it's understandable that he could be making the assumption that the torso is always parallel to the ground, but I don't think that's the case with many (most?) AG'ers. You can just as easily affect hip angle by raising the cockpit, or to put it another way if your your cockpit is set up such that your torso is not parallel to the ground using this methodology will net you an overly open hip angle.
@John Katsoudas and @matt limbert the question may be does this one element affect what size bike to order?
@Sue DeJesus it might. Not knowing anything about you and just going by the photo in your sig, if you wanted to move into a more aerodynamic position it would likely entail moving your seat forward and dropping the cockpit and sliding it forward. There are many, many factors to consider when doing this, such as power, comfort, physical limitations, etc. but those changes will affect your stack and reach coordinates which may impact what size frame will work for you. The P5x has a pretty large fit range for any given size frame. Much larger than the P5d, for example. If you think you want to do some experimenting with position my recommendation would be to do that on your current bike, then take those new stack and reach numbers and translate those to the correct size frame for whichever new bike you're interested in.
@Paul Hough My P5X weights in at 23lbs race ready: flat kit, tools, cages. Add hydration race day in 3 bottles and who knows what it weights. Cervelo themselves claims to "fix" the weight issue on their next generation P3X and PX series. You don't "fix" what doesn't need to be fixed. And for me who generates less power than the average younger man or woman, it makes a significant impact on climbing. It could be the perfect bike for a young to middle-age strong cyclist!
@John Katsoudas Yes! Very good idea, and sort of already done it. My last fit adjustments were right before IMChoo and I had major changes to my fit from what it was, pushing the saddle way forward so I was more over the cranks. I was much more comfortable and my legs felt good, more power, etc. going into the race. So I think those numbers are a good place to start when sizing for my new bike.
Thank you everyone for such great ideas! I SOooo appreciate your input. It's been so helpful.
OK, cool. If you have a fit that's working for you then you should be in good shape. Just for reference (I thought I'd seen this somewhere) here are the fit calculators for the P5d and the P5x superimposed on each other. You can see how much larger the fit window is for any given size P5x frame, due mostly to how much more adjustable the aerobars are. So, having a good fit going into a bike purchase is much more important on the P5d than on a PX series bike.
@John Katsoudas @Sue DeJesus Like John said, hip angle is one of many variables and will not be the one you use to order your bike. While the video does highlight the position many of the pros ride - that is really just an example of the type of analysis, knowledge and custom fit he provides. What makes his approach most effective is - the ability to capture your specific geometry coordinates (hip angle, stack, reach, seat height, etc) while pedaling under different loads. No getting off the bike to change anything. Moving any contact point (seat, handlebars, bottom bracket) around the rider, while measuring power. For Sue, I only mention this because - if really want to improve the bike - it comes down to your most powerful and comfortable aero position that you can hold for hours. This is one way to find that. He'll start with your current fit coordinates and then try moving the seat angle, seat position relative the bottom bracket, reach, stack etc. Kinda like getting glasses - better 1 or better 2. All the time you are riding with power and providing feedback on comfort and effort level. Once you have you fit coordinates then you can determine what bike fits you the best stock or with a cockpit change etc. My two cents.
@matt limbert This sounds like very good advice. I'll check into it. Thank you!
@Sue DeJesus not sure where you are with your decision process on a new bike, but I thought I'd pass this along since you and I had discussed storage options for the P5 disc I recently received my 3D-printed tool storage box for my new P5 disc, and got it installed today. It's a nice little box, and solves my only little quibble with the bike - lack of integrated tool/tube storage. This guy 3D prints boxes for a variety of bikes/brands:
The box is custom designed for each bike and frame size, and the fit reflects that. The build quality is good enough. It's clearly a 3D-printed box, but it does what it says it does, mounts in place of the useless aero bottle on the downtube and fits all my stuff so I'm happy. The lid is held in place with two strong magnets and has a couple of nylon lanyards to keep from losing it. I was able to stuff everything shown in the photo inside the box. Just thought I'd pass this along in case anyone else here needs a storage box for a P5 disc or any of the other bikes they have boxes for.
@John Katsoudas Thanks so much for this. I have ordered the P5. I'm undecided about getting the box behind the seat or on the down tube. It looks great and so functional! Thanks for the link. I'm sure I'll do one or the other. I appreciate this information! :)