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NOS FTP testing Thoughts and comments

I am posting this as an intro to the NOS Bike work. In my leadup to the NOS, I wanted to do a formal FTP test as I have not done a real 20 min test recently. In doing this, I realized that things have changed since I last tested and I thought that my experiences might be useful to folks testing in preparation for the OS.

When I first started with the team 6 years ago, TrainerRoad was the bike platform of choice and I had a wheel-on cycleops fluid trainer. In order to increase the resistance, you shifted gears. On FTP tests, the Team Wiki advice was to start just below your goal for the first 1/3, at your power goal for the middle 1/3, and as hard as you could go for the last 1/3. It took a few tries to get used to the pacing but eventually consistency would develop. This type of testing would invariably get my HR to the max by the end of the test.

I have had some medical advice that suggested that I limit my time at or near max HR so I changed my training to be more focused on shorter intervals at higher powers and basically stopped testing. As I became more involved in the team racing and riding on Zwift, I found that the motivation of riding with my peers (mostly my betters) was a powerful motivator. Occasionally, after a particularly good ride, Zwift would automatically increase my FTP. Testing not needed.

In May, I upgraded to a Wahoo kickr and learned about Erg mode. Basically, Erg mode forces the rider to produce a specific power. Since power is the Cadence multiplied by the force on the pedals, for a given power, the faster you pedal, the less force is needed per pedal stroke. Conversely, if you pedal more slowly, more force is needed per pedal stroke. What this means is that when pedaling at a given power, the faster you pedal the easier it is and the slower you pedal, the harder it is. If you stop pedaling during a hard interval, it is essentially impossible to start pedaling unless you switch out of Erg mode.

I have previously noticed that when performing a 20 min power test, my cadence tends to drop slightly over the course of the test. I usually start at a cadence between 85-90 and end up between 75-80 as the 20 minute interval progresses. When I tried to do the FTP test in Erg mode on Zwift, 2 things were different: 1 I could not start out below the target power and build because the trainer forces you to hold a certain power and 2 if I let my cadence drop, it became harder to pedal.

If you look at this chart, you will see where it got so hard that I had to actually stop entirely and switch off Erg mode to be able to pedal. I then was able to restart the trainer and switch back to Erg mode and finish the interval. In spite of this, I was able to get a FTP of 262 for the test which was very close to the 266 that I got at my Bump race a few weeks ago.

I also noticed that there is a new testing protocol for FTP testing in Zwift, called the "step test" and I was interested to see how an FTP derived from the step test would compare to a regular 20 min FTP test. There are several advantages to the step test: 1 it is usually much shorter and 2 you don't need to do the entire 20 minute interval.

I did the step FTP test today to check and see how the derived FTP would correlate with the FTP that I got doing the full 20 min test. Spoiler, it was MUCH lower at 242 watts. That could be because I tested on 2 consecutive days and was fatigued (I did get to max HR), it could be because I was unfamiliar with the step test protocol and would do better with further experience. With N=1, it is really impossible to know.

So, what have I learned? I personally have found that there is really no reason for me to formally do a FTP test to measure my progress. The competitive nature and short duration of the team EN "Bump" races on Zwift on Sunday and Mondays give me the motivation to put in my best performance and are just long enough to get in a solid 20 minute interval to get that FTP bump.

My plan for the OS is to dso the bike workouts on Tuesday and Thursdays using the ZWIFT workouts in Erg mode and then do the Team EN "Hang On" Ride Saturday mornings for my long ride. I will probably do the Team EN "Bump" ride on Sundays if my legs permit after my Sunday Run. I hope that this will be a good mix of structured workouts and group workouts with the team to keep the OS fun and fresh for the 6th time around.

I would be interested in other people's experiences on FTP testing and how they are using Zwift or TrainerRoad to hack the OS.

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Comments

  • "I personally have found that there is really no reason for me to formally do a FTP test to measure my progress. The competitive nature and short duration of the team EN "Bump" races on Zwift on Sunday and Mondays give me the motivation to put in my best performance and are just long enough to get in a solid 20 minute interval to get that FTP bump."

    I agree 100% with this. I can't remember the last time I did a formal FTP test. I have a number of sources I use to triangulate my FTP: WKO 4 (Training Peaks' computer app) gives me an estimated FTP; Strava Premium also gives me one; Zwift, of course will offer an FTP to me; and how well or poorly I am able to manage any interval workouts I might do. At my age, my whole goal is to maintain my FTP, rather than try and bump it up. It seems to vary between 210-220 using the above sources (about 3.25 w/kg); a far cry from the 262 (4 w/kg) I had in 2006...

    As I'm phasing into the final 3 weeks of IM Arizona training, after doing Kona 2 weeks ago, most of my bike work will be on Zwift. Since I got a compu-trainer in 2006, I've been using the Erg mode for workouts. One of the advantages of Zwift over Trainer Road for workouts at least is that in workout mode (which uses Erg), if you soft pedal, erg automatically stops, then you can start up again with much less effort than that required in the FTP testing mode.

    But there's no question that, for me at least, I can work harder during a race than during any workout I might attempt, whether on the road, in TR, or on Zwift. E.g, I have done races x 55' @ 0.99 IF; I just did the 27' EN Bump race @ 1.025 last week. So I tend to use races as workouts. I look at the distance and terrain of a race, and estimate how long it will take me to finish. building from 20' to 60' over a 4-6 week period, doing two races a week, is quite feasible.

    My thought is, you don't have to stop at a 20' effort. You might be surprised by how long you can actually go @ 1.0 IF, when properly motivated by all the other little avatars trying to beat you...

  • I still test.

    Not because I need a 20-minute effort to estimate my FTP, but:

    1. Because 20-minutes is a benchmark that I have measure over the years, I have good data at that point for both power and weight and I know that I've tried to give the best that I can give at that number.
    2. I break by bike builds into a few different zones and 20 minutes falls right in the middle of the FTP build. Generally, these are:
      1. efforts under 3-4 minutes (frc),
      2. efforts from 5-10 minutes (vo2),
      3. efforts from 10 minutes out to roughly an hour (ftp), and
      4. long efforts (stamina)
    3. I've found that giving maximal efforts is really really hard, whether it is for 1 minute or for 1 hour. When I start getting used to the 1-3 minute efforts, the idea of a 5-minute effort makes my head explode. When I get used to the 5-10s, the idea of a 20-minute test turns my stomach. Whatever I am not doing always seems 1,000x harder than the ones I am currently doing. HOWEVER... I've had really big gains from doing them. I have a theory that - at any given point in time - think of which intervals sound the worst and those are probably exactly what will benefit you the most 😂

    I think that Zwift has really helped the team a lot, because it makes it a lot more palatable to do much harder work that we are able to do on our own on a trainer looking at a number.

    As long as you are getting in the really hard work that lets the Zwift estimate of your FTP improve, then it doesn't really matter if you have a perfect estimate of exactly what your ftp is. If you ftp stops going up, then find a way to do the things you haven't been doing... do some max efforts below 3-4 minutes, or do some max efforts at 20-60 minutes... then you'll start seeing improvements.


    Part II

    I do all my 20' test on a bike on the road. Sometimes road bike - sometimes tt bike (I get the same number). My cadence is always a lot higher during a 20-minute test than what you mentioned.. more like 95-100 rpm. I can generate more watts for longer durations when I get the cadence higher than when it is lower. and my HR is usually maxed for the second half of the ride.

    No matter how hard I try, I am convinced there is more in the tank. The last 20-minute test I did, rather than stopping and vomiting like I typically do at 20:01, I coasted for a few seconds, then started soft pedaling for a few more then started riding. I had ridden 20' at 303w, and when I started riding I was around 275w and it felt incredibly easy, so I decided to go to 25'. By 25', power was back up around 290w, so I decided to try to hold it until 30'. Then I made a deal with myself that I would stop if upcoming stoplight was red (it was green)... I kept making deals like that until finally I was still giving everything for an hour. My power had dropped substantially, but my average for the hour was still 275w or so.

    The point is this: No I believe I can ride 275w for 60'. Before this experience, I would have laughed (or cried) at the idea of that. I believe that 275w was the best that I could do on that day... but now I believe I will beat it next time.

    I learn something about myself that is not related to FTP each time that I test.

  • Bump Race got me a new FTP last week. Seemed pretty accurate on NOS Day 1. I did it in a race last week, so I knew the suffering was appropriate ;-)

  • @John Culberson Bump Race For the Win!

    @Rich Stanbaugh I am always amazed and impressed at the systematic way you approach these things. Thanks for your insights.

    @Al Truscott You are just my hero, 'nuff said.

  • @Ralph Moore I had the opposite experience. I test considerably higher on the step test than the 20 minute test.

  • @Ralph Moore

    I'll never do a 20 minute FTP test again. I did one shortly before the step test was released on Zwift. And having been listening to the Trainer Road podcast for some time, I had a pretty good insight into the test as TR has been using it for quite a while. They also have talked about how while the step test is brutal, but only for a few minutes, you can do a recovery spin for a short period and then move onto a fairly intense workout after testing. Where with a full on, full gas 20 minute FTP test, people are generally totally destroyed. At least I am. And the only thing I'm doing after it is trying not to die.

    My last 20 minute test came in at 270, then the step test a few weeks later was 273. Thats margin of error. Unfortunately in the first week of August I suffered my hamstring injury. While it didn't have an impact on my cycling, I didn't think it would be wise to engage in such an activity leading into IMMD and possibly ruining any chance of being able to do some semblance of a 'run'. So I haven't 'tested' since mid July.

    I'm looking forward to doing a step test in the near future as I go into the Balanced Durability program on Monday.

    Some full gas Zwift racing will give me a good idea of what I can hold for an hour to slightly longer. 261 (3.3 w/kg) for 1:09 today on Innsbruck with a fair bit of sitting in the pack and using the super tuck (0 watts) on some of the steep downs.

  • @Sid Wavrin My fail on the step test could be the fact that I did it the day after the 20 min test and/or that it was my first time trying it and did not have a good handle on how to approach it.

    @Brian Terwilliger Once I found out that the formal FTP test was comparable to what Zwift calculated, I am doubtful to ever formally test again. The only problem is when you race hard and get an unexpected FTP bump and then all of your workouts get harder in the middle of a cycle. So one week you are doing 12 min intervals at 262 watts and then you get FTP bump and the next week you are doing 15 min intervals at 270 watts. Ouch.

  • @Ralph Moore

    Ha! I had that happen a couple years ago. Did a Zwift race and I crushed it. Got a pretty good bump in FTP at the end and went with it. After failing miserably the first 2 workouts the next week I lowered it back to where it was before.

  • edited November 3, 2019 9:57PM

    @Brian Terwilliger I figure if I can actually do something in a race then it must be my new normal. So far, it is working as I am currently at an all time high FTP and I am really interested to see how the OS will affect that. hopeful

    Also, I ride with the fast guys on the team on a weekly basis. On my best day, I can only hang on for a short time but each week, I hang on a bit longer. It gives me a new definition of hard every week.

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