Weight Loss - Using Protein as a primary macronutrient
Since many athletes want to change body composition I thought it would be timely to share the following study.
I have seen this approach work. It can be be challenging for Vegans, but it can be done.
Stuart Phillips, Phd of McMaster Univ in Canada, a leading expert on protein presented this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26817506 at the Leaders in Performance Conference - Sports Nutrition, last week in the Netherlands.
The following are bullet points from one of the attendees.
The starting point, or ground rules, for the presentation were:
- all weight loss runs through energy balance (calories in vs calories out)
- there are no magic nutrients
- there is no specific diet that is better than another.
Before discussing protein for weight loss, two myths about protein need to be dispelled:
- there is no data that links high protein diets to renal failure
- there is no data that high protein leads to acidification of the blood and calcium leaching.
There are a number of very good reasons for increasing protein consumption during periods of weight loss:
- poor substrate for lipogenesis - fat storage
- preserving muscle mass
- protein is nutrient dense.
When we lose weight, the weight is not only fat:
- fat mass is usually 70% of the weight
- bone loss can be 0.5-1% (therefore calcium and vitamin D supplementation may be necessary)
- muscle loss is usually 30%.
However, increasing protein has been shown to reduce the negative aspects of weight loss:
- greater overall mass loss is achieved
- fat is favored in the mass lost
- skeletal muscle retention is greater
One of the best sources of protein is dairy:
- it is high in leucine (whey and casein are two good sources)
- it is nutrient dense which is critical when consuming a energy restrictive diet
CONCLUSIONS of the study
Our results showed that, during a marked energy deficit, consumption of a diet containing 2.4 g protein/ kg was more effective than consumption of a diet containing 1.2 g protein/ kg in promoting increases in LBM and losses of fat mass when combined with a high volume of resistance and anaerobic exercise.
- participants performed resistance training and high intensity interval training 6 times a week
- CHO was held at 3g/kg/day.
- a high protein group at 2.4g/kg/day was compared to a lower protein group at 1.2g/kg/day
- the results showed that a higher protein diet during a calorie deficit was more effective at promoting gains in lean body mass and losses of fat when combined with high intensity training.
Summary
- Protein is critical for maintaining skeletal muscle while in a calorie deficit.
- A higher protein diet is not dangerous and actually helps both fat loss and maintenance of lean body mass.
- A protein intake of 2.4g/kg/day is a significant amount of protein requiring protein at each meal.
- A target intake of 1.8 gm/kg has also shown in other studies to be an effective.
- Dairy is an excellent source of leucine and a great option for meeting higher protein diet requirements.
- Leucine is the critical amino acid for promoting anabolism. The recommendation is 3gm leucine post ex.
- I believe that a bit more carbohydrate can be periodized around training and still achieve fat loss.
- This study did not include women.
Comments
Great post-thx
Thanks for posting this, I’m a true believer in the high protein diets!
Not sure this is proper forum channel for the question .
Can one achieve success during OS time being on a 18/6 intermittent fasting protocol, while taking extra essential amino acids such as PerfectAmino. Background... I’m attempting to lose about 10-15 pounds of body fat before actual specific IM training plan begins in February. Thx
@David Ambrose Current studies are showing IF is not a preferred method for weight loss over a calorie restriction method. Most people who lose weight following IF basically clean up their diet, eliminate poor food choices, become more aware of their hunger cues and end up eating about the same in the IF window as a 24 hour window.
Another consideration for athletes on IF is management of cortisol. A typical 18/6 protocol is to eat all of your calories from 11am to 5 pm. However, based on a normal circadian rhythm, your cortisol is at its highest in the morning. If you do a high intensity session as written in the OS while fasted the training adaptions are going to be compromised.
In regards to Perfect Aminos. There is nothing magical in this expensive product that you can't get in food. The marketing to athletes is very slick. Also, they say 8 essential amino acids, but there are nine. They also don't list the exact level of aa in the product. It's listed as 5000 mg. A proprietary blend is a red flag.
There are good studies for the use of BCAA's during exercise to delay fatigue.
You can lose weight in the OS season with a caloric deficit but focus on protein and using carbs around the hard work outs.
Lots of good stuff here. Losing muscle and bone mass is something I have been concerned about when in a caloric deficit preparing for an Ironman race.
I think the key words are "caloric deficit" NOTE: it is my personal belief that it is nearly impossible to be in a protein deficit without also being in a caloric deficit.
There is a difference between health , weight loss, performance, etc.
Recommend watching the new documentary The Game Changers on Netflix.
https://www.netflix.com/title/81157840
And before you increase your dairy intake. Watch Dairy is Scary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI#action=share
@tim cronk Game Changers is on my list to watch so I can start fielding the questions 😂
Seriously, whether I person chooses Vegan, lacto-ovo vegetarian (milk and eggs) , flexitarian, or how about Pegan (Paleo and Vegan on different days), in the end it's what a person can be consistent with and manage blood sugar, bones, muscle, performance goals, etc.
My doctor, who I respect, is Vegan. We have lots of good discussions.
I haven't seen the movie but a bunch of the science blogs I follow are not that keen on it.
For example, here https://carnivoremd.com/debunking-the-game-changers/
Thoughts?
Tom
@Tom Glynn - Gee let me put on my shocked face... the Carnivore Doctor does not like "The Game Changers" ? I am pretty sure the dairy industry has some negative feedback to "Dairy is Scary" :-) I went to the carnivoremd.com website , he quotes Ben Greenfield in his very first paragraph (I am not a fan of Ben) and read the debunk. YES there are good points as there is always two sides to a story/theory. Just like the Game Changers is biased documentary. While I am strongly in the vegan/plant based camp, I do continue to try and educate myself to both sides, I started this journey over 10 years ago with a Paleo book, couldn't believe what I was reading and still cant.
I have an old work friend of I have known for 28yrs, to put it politely he is a perpetual hypochondriac , back the day he was very fit, and very close to being a tennis pro, he ALWAYS has something wrong with him, he is always searching for the magic bullet, I have watched all of his doctor visits and health/diet experiments over the years, including even vegan. Last time I saw him he was on the Carnivore Diet 6 weeks into it, as usual when trying something new he felt great blah blah blah, but I have never seen him look worse , his skin was yellow jaundiced and eyes sunken. I'm guessing he has probably passed through that phase as well.
I like to say you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.
@tim cronk @Tom Glynn This is from my post on My Nutrition Zone FB page. The questions are coming in, as I knew they would. I've been doing this for a long time and I honestly believe the biggest factor left out of one's health journey is personal responsibility. There are many roads to Rome. I have to keep my nutrition counseling in the context of that person. If a person loves meat but is going to go Vegan because they're tod to, it won't last.
As with all food documentaries we need to listen with an open mind. Game Changers brings light to the power of a plant based diet. It's produced by James Cameron, who has launched his own line of Vegan products.
The movie is heavy with celebrity anecdotes but also includes some valid studies on the benefits of plants and heart disease. Whether or not you agree with everything in the movie, the biggest areas the movie touches on that I would promote for the general public are: ☑️eating a variety of vegetables and fiber can promote a healthy gut microbiome, ☑️☑️reduce heart disease ☑️adequate protein can be obtained without meat ☑️the environmental footprint is less ☑️ promotes animal welfare.
Some other thoughts: 🔘are processed vegan foods moving us towards a whole food diet? 🔘do we need to model how we eat like the our ancestors of over 2000 years ago? 🔘Is it fair to say athletes are better because of this diet? 🔘Or any diet? 🔘is this promoting lifestyle eating, or a stop and go diet?
If the movie motivates you to eat less meat, cook more, increase fiber from whole food then this is a good thing. Let's promote food not fear.
@tim cronk Ha! That was probably the wrong post to cut and paste. I've been reading more about it and this article happened to pop into my feed an hour or so before I saw this EN post. I also tend to jump to conclusions pretty fast with "science/health" documentaries on Netflix, from Vaxxed all the way down the list.
I'll watch the show and form my own opinions.
@Sheila Leard Love your "movie motivator" section. Most of us could eat better. One book I really enjoyed was Matt Fitzgerald's book, "The Endurance Diet" that he wrote a year or two ago. It's your same message in 200 pages :)
Tom
@tim cronk you can replace my quick cut and paste link above with this one I saw last week :)
Happy eating!
Tom
I didn't mean to turn this into a plant based vs. meat/dairy thread. My concern is those reading a thread about weight loss and protein will do 3 things. 1. Blindly increase their intake in protein 2. use dairy to increase that protein thanks to the use of whey/casein in the study/article 3. and lastly completely miss the point about caloric deficit. Maybe one should make sure they are in a caloric deficit and losing weight before they worry about increasing the amount of protein per kg? I only posted the Game Changers as it was pertinent to some of what we have always believed about protein, and the Dairy is Scary to make people think about other sources of protein than dairy.
How much protein per kg do we need when sedentary?
How much protein per kg do we need when active?
How much protein per kg do we need when maintaining weight?
How much protein per kg do we need when losing weight?
How much protein per kg do we need if we are small vs. large, male vs. female, young vs. old, etc?
What I would really like to know from some of those who track nutrition religiously is how much protein per kg are you consuming on average? At my current weight 1.2 x kg my protein in grams per day would be 66g and at 2.4 kg it would be 132g. Due to this thread I recently logged food for a few days and was right around 100g per day, remember what a pain in the ass it was to track food I went back through TP to collect data from a 30 day period when I tracked it religiously. I found 3x days over 100g these were my highest , 2x days under 50g which were my lowest and the day before an IM and IM RR, the remaining 25 days were mostly between 85-95g per day , so I will call my average daily intake of protein to be 90g per day or 1.6g per kg of weight.
Bottomline for me - I easily exceed the 1.2g per kg minimum daily , have never reached the 2.4 per kg, and usually fall somewhere in the middle around 1.6 per kg.
@Tom Glynn a much better link of argument.
@Sheila Leard
🔘are processed vegan foods moving us towards a whole food diet? NO and this is a HUGE but inevitable pet peeve of mine. The food industry is doing what it always does by bastardizing the vegan/plant base movement to engineer highly processed foods to sell to the masses. Marketing and Money. Its what people want.
🔘do we need to model how we eat like the our ancestors of over 2000 years ago? This one is such a joke, they cant even agree to what exactly it was, and if they did , it doesn't even exist in the manner it did back then. Its time to look forward.
🔘Is it fair to say athletes are better because of this diet? 🔘Or any diet? NO because most will overthink this and over react as fads, articles, studies come and go.
🔘is this promoting lifestyle eating, or a stop and go diet? NO. But, I have seen you mention this many times and agree, most important thing is to make it a lifestyle you can live with and not a roller coaster of decisions.
@tim cronk Your data analysis is remarkable. Your protein intake is just fine. Your challenge is eating enough to not lose weight, particularly when in IM training. (I didn't mention Ultra training because I've observed that when intensity is lower and you have the ability to eat while running total calorie intake becomes less of an issue.)
Through sheer bulk of eating, you are checking the protein box and the rest is coming from fat and carbs. This is the message I pass on to High School kids that want to bulk up with lots of protein. Bulk up with calories, the protein will be there.
The point of the study was to emphasis that if in a calorie deficit you can maintain muscle when eating adequate protein, which is very individual as you pointed out.
The food industry tries to keep up with how fickle people are. $$$. We've seen the processed Keto food and now the processed Vegan food., ie., Impossible Burger at Burger King!! Folks are confused and misled by marketing. It keeps me busy.
@Sheila Leard i’m a big fan of Examine.com when it comes to study reviews. They did a great one on protein awhile ago here: https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-you-need/?utm_source=newsletter-course&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2019-emailcourse-default-aug&ck_subscriber_id=171590699
I also read and listen to podcasts with Stuart Phillips out of McMaster University. He has authored/co-authored an incredible amount of articles on the protein topic. Stuart is a guest on a variety of podcasts and does a great job of explaining the science in easy to understand language in his podcasts.
if you have any great reads on the topic, I’d be interested!
@Tom Glynn Agree, Examine.com and Alex Leaf do great work by submitting unbiased reviews.
One my favorite unbiased websites/ podcasts is Danny Lennon out of Ireland www.sigmanutrition.com Check him out.
Too. Much. Info. LOL seriously, I can't keep up with what is "good" vs, bad (ie eggs are bad, then good, now bad again??)
All I know is that higher protein and appropriate carbs works best for me, whether I'm maintaining or trying to lose. Appropriate carbs are dependent on that as well as my training so it varies by day. If I eat too many carbs, aside from mid-ride pastries of course, it literally makes me sick. (Nausea and generally feeling "icky" which makes me want more carbs) Doesn't always stop me from overindulging...
My bottom line is I give up on the "expert" advice and listen to my body. And my taste buds. ;)
It’s an interesting study @Sheila Leard . The Protein level of 2.4g/kg is classic Bodybuilder protein recommendation. In the US it’s always been 1g/lb. In “The Game Changers” Arnold says “I always ate 250g of Protein Because I weighed 250 pounds”. For an 80kg or 176lb guy that would be 176-192g per day which is a ton of protein. And 96g of protein seems to be on the low side if you are doing 6 days a week of ST and HIIT (CrossFit?). Certainly an extra 50g of fat isn’t going to help repair muscle fiber from repeated intense workouts. 240g of carbohydrates per day might be sufficient for a “gym” based fitness lifestyle but it wouldn’t support much time running or riding (for me).
I looked back at the time when I was successful at trimming my weight and I averages 134g protein and 458g carbohydrates (high volume on the bike). I have DEXA scans going back to 2012 and my Lean Body Mass hasn’t changed more than +/- 2 pounds with more than a 25 pound body weight change, so I don’t entirely buy into the idea that muscle wasting “always” accompanies fat loss. Matt Fitzgerald’s book The Endurance Diet has many anecdotes of pro athletes on high carbohydrate, moderate protein diets (some we would call Vegan)
The main problem I have with the Game Changers movie @tim cronk is I don’t like when people purposely try to deceive me. The part where they compare a Carnivore’s Teeth and Digestive System to that of a human and say that because we have flatter teach and longer intentions we are “built to be vegans” is demonstrably false. Someone pushing an all meat diet could do the same thing with a cow’s teeth and intestines to “prove” their point. Humans are Omnivores, we can survive on almost any combination of foods, obviously some better than others. As far as I’m concerned, if they are willing to lie on such an obvious thing as that, the whole movie is a steaming pile.
The question that we need to ask as endurance athletes is what food sources will make us fastest and healthiest? Clearly a Vegan lifestyle can support Endurance Athletes. I don’t see any widespread evidence saying a High Protein / Low Carbohydrate diet will do the same. I personally perform better with some lean red meet in my diet (maybe because of the iron and living at 6500ft?). Dave Scott use to espouse 70% carbs when he was winning everything, now he’s keto?
I certainly haven’t cracked the code myself.
There is a great podcast over at the Science of Ultra that talks with Stuart Phillips, who has probably written more on protein than anyone. The topic is protein for endurance athletes and includes how much to take (1.8 g/kg) when to take it and lots of other thoughts.
https://www.scienceofultra.com/podcasts/11
This thread is AWESOME... and I have a hard time disagreeing with any of it. And therein lies the problem.
Similar to @Kim DuBord there's just too much info for me to process. But, I am a data junky, a control freak, and super goal-oriented. So I want to do a ton of things to improve my body comp, but I simply don't know where to start, and my head is about to explode.
I could read these posts all day long. LOVE THEM. But, I am wondering if there is a place I can go to answer some of my specific questions as I try to think through my diet. So many books, so many different thoughts... I need recommendations, can you guys help? @Sheila Leard @tim cronk @scott dinhofer @Tom Glynn @Dave Tallo @David Ambrose @Pat Morton
Here are some challenges I am trying to work through:
Should I book time with a Nutritionist? Is there a good book that answers these questions? Should I stop overthinking and start experimenting?
Thanks, and hopefully this isn't an ambush on a great thread!
Hey @Rob Tune I may not be the best to answer your question as I'm currently working on the KG side of my own w/kg equation. While some coaches/nutritionists espouse dividing your weekly training load into 7 equal parts (Chris Carmichael) most would have you add all or part of your daily workout to a Base or "Core" diet. I think the best resource for this is "The Endurance Training Dirt & Cookbook" by Jesse Kropelnicki who also has a website "TheCoreDiet.com The Book is inexpensive and specific to Triathletes.
The cliff note version. Eat a Nutritious Whole food "Core diet". This is where your 1.8g/kg Protein comes in. I've found that a ratio of 50% carbs, 25% Protein, 25% fat works for me. (I'll detail my diet in a bit).
The Training portion of the diet Jesse breaks your expected caloric burn into 25% Pre, 50% During, 25% Post portions with easily digested carbs in the Pre and During portions and 4/1 Recovery drink like Endurox in the Post window.
To improve Body Composition, you can subtract a small amount from the Core Diet and then only replace 75% of the Calories burned in the Training Portion by skipping the Recovery Drink and having one of your normal meals shortly after your workout (unless you are doing 2xday workouts)
For me it looks like this- my maintenance caloric intake is aprox 2550cal/day. To lose ½ pound per week my "Core" diet would be 2300cal/day. I need about 120-130g of Protein and 300g of carbohydrates just to cover normal daily activity and support normal body function. That means I could have up to 64g of fat as well and stay within the total calorie goal. For me, this works out to four meals of 550-600 calories, 30g Protein, 75g Carb, 15g Fat. Then I skip the Post/Recovery Drink. I average 550-600kj per hour on the bike so depending on my weekly volume this can account for an extra ¼ to ½ pound of weight loss.
The Book has a lot of great information and is worth the read. I contracted with their nutritionist for personalized meal plans, but that didn’t work as well for me.
Hopefully this is helpful and doesn’t just muddy the waters more.
Pat
@Pat Morton this is just the kind of endorsement/advice I needed, thanks for that!
Would still love to hear input from others, if different than Pat's!
@Rob Tune another thumbs up on@Pat Morton suggestion for Jesse's book. I also like Nancy Clark's book called the Sports Nutrition Guidebook. It's probably in its 7th or 8th printing and has sold 750K copies. I think I read the first or second printing :) Follow her on Facebook.
If you are looking for more personal advice, hire a dietitian, not a nutritionist. Dietitians have science backgrounds. An Instagram Influencer can call themselves a nutritionist :)
@Sheila Leard is really smart!
A couple of years ago I had back to back issues with IM race day fueling so I used Jesse's group at the Core Diet. They really helped dial in my food and hydration.
Best of luck!
Tom
@Rob Tune It can be daunting when trying to change body composition. You made some good points about how calories change day to day. Active people have a high energy flux, meaning metabolic rate stays high therefore, its very difficult to assign a caloric number. Too much information makes eating unenjoyable.
Your questions:
Just a side comment I am a Sports Dietitian. The athletes I"ve worked with that have lost weight have the following in common:
All straight forward, not complicated, no number counting except reading labels. Recording food intake has a short lifespan. It can give one some honest feedback about how much they are eating, but eventually recording wears off. Also, the USDA data base these apps use are not accurate.
Nancy Clark, RD has very sensible advice.
Another outstanding resource is Asker Jeukendrup. PhD
This is awesome! I’ve got some reading to do
@Sheila Leard, I’m a secret admirer of your posts! @Tom Glynn I’ll check out Nancy Clark too, and that Stuart Phillips podcast was pretty cool. Thanks for sharing
@Pat Morton I agree Game Changers is comically biased to convince the macho MMA, Body Builder, Virile Male that its OK to go Vegan.
Mike Pollan said it best IMO. "Eat food, not too much, mostly from plants" He has a book of 64 food rules that is educational and entertaining. https://michaelpollan.com/reviews/how-to-eat/
@Sheila Leard Extremely well done, I agree with everything , except #9. I stand by my belief that a healthy vegan eating mostly WFPB (not a junk food vegan) and is NOT in a caloric deficit, will not be in a protein deficit. As I wrote in above comments , every time I track my food, there is plenty o protein.
Currently the internet is awash with newbie PB adopters searching for the next magical diet beating the deadhorse that is where do I get my protein from and am I getting enough protein all thanks to the Game Changers. Some of them are just educating themselves but most of them are chasing the magic bullet and have entered the PB craze from another DIET craze. I think many will adopt the new lifestyle and many will move on to the next miracle diet when it comes along.
@Rob Tune
Here are some challenges I am trying to work through:
I think one should track there food in a myfitnesspal type app to educate themselves on macros, calories, etc. This exercise over a few months is very eye opening. Be honest and track absolutely everything no matter how small (like condiments ).
IMHO YES I consume more carbohydrates to fuel my WKO's.
YES more work requires more fuel. Think of food as fuel. Fuel your WKO's and eat normally ( 3 meals a day) . ON a day with no WKO's you eat less because you are not fueling the work. :-) On a big or long day it can be challenging to get in 3 meals.
Fuel before, during and after (anything 1hr or more especially). Under fueling work , leads to over fueling later.
10 years Vegan. It works for me. I love the food, am happy with my performance. When I wanna get to race weight I need to practice Discipline, I cut out the crap (yes there is vegan crap) and I eat less. When I am gaining weight it is because of pure Gluttony not some magical formula of macro's. FWIW I am in a Gluttony Ice Cream/Cake end of season phase, where I am "treating" myself, and "allowing" myself too eat crap and too much. I do know how to fix it. Discipline!
Great points @tim cronk as always. The junk Vegan products are pushing the junk Keto products off the shelves.
I think we can all agree that you have to fuel your workouts! We don't lose weight during a workout by not eating. Weight loss is dynamic. It's not confined to a 24 hour period. I like your point that on long workouts it's hard to get adequate food in. This often explains that residual hunger you feel the next day. Honor the hunger and re-fuel your muscles.
Books are great Christmas gifts. Michael Pollan has some thought provoking books!
PS - are you baking those cakes or is Heather? 🤗
Oops forgot to mention the next nutrition book I will be reading. "How not to diet" by Dr. Gregor I do not expect to learn too much new but will like the review. I am a fan of his writing "How not to die" and his website nutritionfacts.org .
I found a copy of my actual Diet when I go "Hard Core".
So, on the vegan/protein/nutrition thread, The following link has a stockpile of great vegan/vegetarian recipes that my wife and I use. Although I am not a complete vegetarian, we eat this way most of the time. Please feel free to look and find anything that you might enjoy. Full disclosure, there may be some cookie recipes in here too. Don't judge me too hard. ;)
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0iyztkpqsbqwtzl/AABCLrHdNa1mvCT9epq81FBZa?dl=0
Not that this needs to go off in a vegan direction, but this is a blog from a vegan, triathlete. I think I found this in the EN forums actually, not sure.