Race Wheels, Rim depth, hub design, OH MY! What to choose??
I'll be adding a set of new race wheels to my ride for 2020 and needed help sifting through the plethera of information out there. These would be my forever all-purpose wheels. Never buying again purchase.
1) what are the most slippery, most aero race wheels? And
2) how much does hub design (free wheeling engagement degree and type, # of engagement points or pawls, bearings, etc.) have on ride quality and stability? AND,
3) what rim depth front & back works best for a lighter (135lb) rider, hill climbing challenged, older athlete (68) ?? I've ridden 808 R, 404F and been fairly stable in the wind.
Thanks!
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Comments
happy this conversation is on EN and not slowtwitch!!
I am a firm believer that aside from construction quality & hubs, there is really no difference between brand A & Brand X wheels. It's a matter of picking a depth that works for you. If you get a 40MM depth front wheel, whether Zipp (404) or Enve, or others, they are going to be so close, it should't matter.
For the rear wheel, I would recommend getting a similar wheel as the front wheel and if you want to save $ just get a wheel cover from wheelbuilder.com
@scott dinhofer With my head swimming with data, I've wondered if it all translated into any real differences in the top brands. So thanks for clarifying that. It's easy to get lost in the details! Is there a reason you recommend getting the back wheel the same as the front?
I agree with Scott. Like bike frames, wheels have also reached peak aero. Wheel selection and value may vary depending on whether you have disc or rim brakes.
@Paul Hough I have disc brakes
I used to ride a wheel that had a hub that had significant freewheeling, low resistance during coasting and could really tell the difference in the ride. That was a rim brake wheel. So I know that the type of hub can make a significant impact on the ride experience. It's been so many years since I've been in the wheel buying market that a lot has changed!
Assuming then that your bike frame can take wider tires, you might want a wheel with a wider cross section that easily holds 25 and 28 mm tires. You get a different shape putting a wider tire on a narrow wheel. HED JET plus is optimized for wider tires. There are probably other brands too. Need some other folks to weigh in on this.
@Paul Hough I am leaning toward the 25mm tire, but again what I've read it all depends on the brand wheel and the inner rim width and how the tire size helps or hinders the aerodynamics of the wheel.
Exactly! The wider rim with a wider tire supposedly is faster if there is any amount of yaw to the wind you face.
Another factor to consider is that some wheels (some of the Enve rims specifically come to mind) use a hookless bead design as opposed to the more traditional hooked bead design still found on Zipp and others. This will impact your setup with regard to tubed vs. tubeless, tire brand choices (Enve has a specific list of tires you can run on their rims) as well as how you'd go about repairing a flat on race day. All things you want to think through before committing.
Personally, I'm still not sold on tubeless for road wheels, so I'm going with Zipp 808/disc as my race setup.
I have a 25 ml rear Belgium from Wheelbuilder and I use a Wheelbuilder cover for racing. I use a HED 3 spoke on the front.
IMO, the more important thing is to use quality tyres and tubes. I use 25 ml Specialized Cotton tyres and latex tubes on my Specialized Shiv. I am a little peep at 67 years old. I did Iron WestAustralia bike split in 6:15 using Pnorm/Pav around 112/109 watts in December last year. Although I think my Powertap hub reads a little low. Also, I have high quality ceramic bearings on the wheels and crank.
I'll throw in a plug for Enve. I run their 7.8s on my TT bike and 4.5s on my road bike. You may like the 4.5s or consider the recently launched 5.6s given your weight. Enve has a great Lifetime Incident Protection and a 5-year limited warranty for their products.
I don't think hubs matter all that much. DT240s are bomb proof and can be easily serviced at races (I run on my TT bike). I run Chris King's on my road bike, which sound great in my opinion, but require specific tools to service. That made me nervous for putting on my race wheels when I travel to races.
@Jeff Phillips , @Peter Greagg, @John Katsoudas, @Paul Hough I recently looked at a review of ENVE, HED, Knight, Zipp as far as aero with ENVE coming in fastest, then HED, then Knight, with Zipp coming in 4th.
Anyone know how Princeton Wheelworks fits into the mix in comparison?
I think a serviceable hub is a good idea. I hadn't thought about that. And now that you mention it, I do remember reading the ENVE rim is different and requires different tires.
I've got the most experience with clinchers so I'll keep with that. Don't know near enough about tubeless and what I've read doesn't convince me to change horses.
Anyone have any experience or thoughts on the HED Vanquish?
Over the years I had a set of ENVE rim brake 7.8 and 4.5 and didn't like the drag with coasting compared to the Zipps 808/404 that I had with a powertap hub that rolled so beautifully. But I don't have a powertap on my rear now, so I'm trying to figure out how to choose for the new bike.
@Sue DeJesus - per earlier question, I went from a 404 to 808 in front and it was too deep for me when I am light (High 140s) so I went back to the 404. 808 in the back is fine as the wind is less of an issue. if you are going to go with a wheelcover, it doesn't really matter what you have in the back since it will all become the cover. that said, if you go to Kona or race on a windy day where you don't want the cover, an 808 depth is better.
to install/remove the cover you do need to be adept at and have tools to remove & install a cassette. I have the ENVE 2-3 on my road bike and the new G23 gravel wheels on my gravel bike. the DT Swiss hubs are the bomb! the zipp hubs are viewed as inferior by many.
Again, on your comment regarding Enve, HED, knight, and whomever... think about serviceability and durability, as well as weight, the aeroness of the wheels will be indifferent to you
@scott dinhofer Enve is dumping their wheels w DT Swiss hubs. I hear you can pick up a new set for only $1700. Thats a great deal. Enve is moving to Chris King or their own proprietary hubs.
@scott dinhofer Do you put the wheelcover on your 808 wheel?
@Paul Hough thanks for the ENVE heads up! I'll check it out. DT Swiss hubs are good hubs.
@scott dinhofer When I had the 808s I didn't put a cover on them. Now with disc brakes I don't think you can put a cover on them. To your points of serviceability and durability are well taken. Good advice, thanks. That steers me away from Chris King hubs.
@Peter Greagg I agree, the tires will be very important. I haven't liked how tires with latex loses air much more so I haven't used them in years. Maybe they're different now....
@John Katsoudas with an ENVE wheel, what's different in how a tire would be repaired during a race? You mentioned that above. That would be important to know...
@Sue DeJesus I'm hoping that others with real-world experience with tubeless tires will chime in, as my knowledge is based solely on the research I've done as I struggle with the tubeless/tubed decision myself.
Here's my understanding... tubeless tires hold air by forming a seal between the bead of the tire and the sidewall of the rim (like a car tire), so that dimension is critical and makes for some tight tolerances. The seal is aided by latex sealant that's injected through the valve stem at the time of install. These tolerances and stiff beads can make getting tires on and off a wheel challenging, and it's also recommended not to use tire levers as they can potentially damage the sealing surface of the rim. Upon initial installation, it takes a lot of air pressure to seat the bead - more than can be usually generated with a floor pump, so initial install is a bit more involved than a tubed tire.
The potential upside is that tubeless tires, by virtue of the injected latex sealant, have some self-sealing capability in the event of a small puncture (up to ~2mm). If you pick up a thorn or similar, some of that latex sealant will leak out the hole and "clot" and seal the hole. Complications arise if the hole or cut in the tire is larger than the latex sealant can plug. Repair then involves removing the tire, removing the screwed-in valve stem, installing a tube, and re-installing the tire. This sounds similar to repairing a flat on a inner tube tire but is complicated a little by the need to remove the screwed-in valve stem, and by the fact that tubeless tires are usually harder to install on a rim by hand (remember that you can't use tire levers).
None of this is specific to Enve wheels, per se, other than the fact that Enve wheels are apparently notorious for being especially difficult to get a tire onto by hand because of their tight tolerances. My main concern with Enve wheels is that they don't have a hook in the sidewall so you can only use tubeless tires, whereas Hed, Zipp, etc. wheels that are "tubeless ready" still have a bead hook in the rim so you have the option to run tubed or tubeless tires.
As I write this, I'm still torn on tubed vs. tubeless. My "A" race next season is 70.3 Santa Rosa. There have been incidents on that course multiple years where some disgruntled local has apparently spread carpet tacks on the course. Not sure if a tubeless tire could take a carpet tack and self-seal but that would be a compelling argument to go tubeless for that particular race.
I hope this helps a little. I'd really appreciate it if folks that run tubeless (and especially if you've had experience with flat repair on a tubeless tire) will chime in.
-John
@John Katsoudas - I have one set of wheels with tubeless tires, but not enough experience with them to give a final verdict. As to using tire levers - I have decided that is myth. My plastic Pedro levers are not going to damage the wheels no matter what I do. They sell special tire pumps that hold the air pressure and release it quickly to help seat the tires but I've had no need for them. My regular pump works well and I'm not finding it any harder to get the tires on or off (no flats yet). One of the downsides is that the sealant has to be re-applied every so often (like 4 to 6 months). When I ride that bike, I've added a tool to my kit to insure I can remove the valve stem if I have to put in a tube. The literature is saying that this is the direction we are going, especially if you are into gravel bikes, but for now, I'm staying with tubes and tires for all bike racing.
@Sue DeJesus You can run Enve wheels as clinchers too. You are not limited to just tubeless.
I run my 7.8s and 4.5s as clinchers. My wife has a pair of 3.4s and runs them as clinchers too.
@Paul Hough , @Jeff Phillips thank you both for the information, and apologies for my misinformation. I'm glad to keep learning about tubeless tech myself. I agree that it's the wave of the future - just trying to figure out when to jump in.
OK, so in an effort to better understand why I was previously under the impression that Enve rims are tubeless-only, I did a little bit more reading. This page does a good job of explaining hooked vs. hookless rim design:
https://www.enve.com/en/journal/behind-the-product-the-hookless-bead-how-it-works-and-who-theyre-for/#
It's true that most Enve wheels have a hooked rim and can be used with clinchers or be run tubeless. However, the newer "AR" series wheels like the 3.4 AR and 4.5 AR are hookless rims and can only be run with tubeless tires.
@John Katsoudas Thanks for clarifying this. Great article! I'm so comfortable with clinchers, and it's all I know, so I'll stick with that until they work the bugs out for them. Tubeless doesn't sound like what I want to mess with during a race, though I understand that you can put a tube in a tubeless tire in an emergency.
I've only got tubeless on both my mountain bikes and gravel bike. I'm not in a hurry to move over to tubeless for road/tri, just because it adds more stuff to my bike that I cannot (don't have time to) do myself, with all the cleaning, taping, filling, etc, that is usually required for set-ups. Clinchers are just so plug-and-play, that's what I'll stick with for the near-term.