The road to 13%
I was inspired to start this journey by a comment that another EN teammate made on one of my other posts. He mentioned that he was 200 lbs and 10% body fate. I immediately thought “fuck, I am 200 lbs, but my body fat is twice that. I am fluffy/soft 200lbs’er. I’d be stoked to be 200lbs and 10% body fat… forever.
So, it got me thinking… in my best shape, while at university, I weighted 225lbs and under 10% body fat. I was big, muscular, athletic, and lean-ish (I’ve never had abs). At my worst, years later, I weighed 235lbs but my body fat was over 20%. I was fluffy and soft as hell. So only 10lbs between my best and worst, but such polar opposites. What was the difference… body fat!
My new body goal is to get to 13% BF. I don’t care about the weight. Lose weight, great! Gain weight, great! Stay the same, great! As long as the BF% is trending lower, nothing else will matter. Of course, I need to get my macro nutrients, stay healthy and uninjured, continue training for my ultras etc., all that is a given. I am NOT a huge data dork, but I will weigh in every morning and monitoring BF. I know that there are a lot of factors that can swing the numbers one way or the other on a daily basis, but over the course of a week if I am trending down, then mission accomplished.
I will keep a food log and will also log activity/workouts. This will keep me accountable. I don’t weigh, or measure, or count calories, I just try to eat sensibly. The log and daily weigh in will give me something to refer to when I plateau or if the BF% starts to rise.
Please comment if there is something you see that is spot on, dead wrong, or anything in between. If I find out how to do it, I will add a link to my food journal so you can view that if you want.
Thanks in advance to everyone who helped and I’ll see you at 13%.
Comments
I think contrary to your thoughts here, you DO need to be concerned about weight. at least not gaining it. I think if you focus on body strength, you are on the right path. At your frame size ( I think you are over 6') you can easily build core and overall muscle strength of 4-5lbs to replace a similar amount of body fat...
which gets me thinking about the same thing. I've embarked on a concerted effort of losing weight once and for all. I've never been "the skinny guy" and I am in the process of making overall changes to my diet, "changing my relationship with food," as opposed to "just dieting."
Adding in a focused daily effort on strength is a good way to get there. not just relying on the muscle/strength of SBR..
let's keep this going and get others in.. how do we create a challenge out of this? I think that would be a great way to keep focus. not a bet situation, but a challenge that keeps us focused on the daily work?
@scott dinhofer my point on the weight is this. I am probably a whole lot faster at 205 10% body fat, than I am at 195, 20% body. And that 205 is solid as as a rock vs. a fluffy 195. Any day of the week I'll take it.
Scott, I am not interested in turning this into a challenge. This is my personal journey. If others want to do something similar in a group, great, they should, and they should rock it! I'm just not interested at this point.
How are you going to track/measure BF?
@Robert Sabo I've got a "smart scale" with all those metrics built in. I am not sure how accurate it is, but again if it's wrong but trending lower every week, I am OK with it.
but then how do you "know " if you're at 13%?
@Robert Sabo if my home scale says 13%, I'll go to a professional and get it checked. But my home scale now says 18%... so no matter what the "real" starting point is, If I dropped 5%, that would be baller!
@Patrick Large - you may or may not know, Daily Intermittent Fasting really helps change body comp:
The 16/8 method: Also called the Leangains protocol, it involves skipping breakfast and restricting your daily eating period to 8 hours, such as 1–9 p.m. Then you fast for 16 hours in between.
I currently do the 10 a.m. to 6 p.m. feeding window.
Thanks @Shaughn Simmons I do know about this technique and I think @Sheila Leard also promotes this. Problem is that I tend to eat a little later at night and then up in the AM early to workout.
This is one strategy that I am trying to work into the mix.
here's an article that a non-athlete friend of mine who is a columnist in SD wrote on the fasting topic.
my only issue with it is the AM coffee, otherwise I can easily go 6PM - 10am
Good on you, @Patrick Large! Put it out there, and have all of us keep you accountable - if that's what you want. Careful what you wish for though, these people around here have good memories! hahaha
I was at my lowest BF EVER, for my first ironman at FL in 2006, I weighed 192lbs with 9% BF. I was the most "ripped" i've ever been. And that was pure cardio - LOTS of it. Wasn't even doing strength training back then, just s/b/r.
Right now, I'm 220lbs with about 15% (edit 1/15: I was at 18% on Monday) if I recall my scale yest. Def more muscle nowadays that back in /'06, but still not as svelte as I want/need to be for Leadville 100 MTB in 7 months. That's my journey!: 18%)
@Patrick Large
Regarding the late night snacks, some years ago Coach Patrick put me on to having a protein shake at 9-9:30 at night. The one I use has 20 gms of protein and only 400 kJs. I eat dinner at 5:00 pm and only have the shake between dinner and a couple of pieces of toast before my morning wko.
IMO, this helps.
While this isn't a competition or challenge (like Hoff's Holidays Challenge - which I love BTW), I am on a similar journey as yourself with a slightly harder target of 10%.
To answer Robert Sabo's question as to how I would know - My research indicates that the scale I am using gives consistent results, but not necessarily accurate results. So when I get around 12% by my scales, I will get professionally measured and use that information to close in on my target.
Just after New Year I was 69 kgs @ 19% Body Fat. This suggests my targets are 60 kgs @ 10% BF. FWIW, this seams like a really steep target. I will give progress reports at the start of each month.
Good luck.
of course compared to the general population, we are reasonably skinny already LOL.😂
@scott dinhofer interesting article. Thanks for sharing. Here is a question... when did the author of that article weigh himself? after 10hrs, 12hrs, 14hr, of IF? If I wake up after only fasting for 10 hours but don't eat for another 2 hours (12 hour IF) should I wait until just before that meal to jump on the scale??
@Scott Alexander 192 and 9% is ripped (in my book). The body fat will definitely come off, but not sure of the muscle gain. All my strength is purely functional, but we'll see.
@Peter Greagg I'd love to get to 10%, but to be honest, not sure I've got it in me to get there. going from 18-13 will already be challenging. As for the scale, all I need is consistent as well. As long as it is trending in the right direction the actual number doesn't matter.
@Patrick Large - not sure on when he weighed himself, but I think you are smart enough to know that as long as you are consistent with time of weigh in on a daily basis, you will see the trendline develop. that said, i think the scales are thrown off on BMI based on your hydration status at the weigh in, I may be wrong.
As for @Robert Sabo 's question, I know what I looked like at 149-152 in my last 2 IMs and have a good pic of that, looking at that body there is 10lbs of BF to come off. of course if I can add muscle to core and other areas, that will be reduced, but when I look like you (plus a beard) I know I am in the right zip code!
THE key to all of this is to make lifestyle changes so that you get there in 6 months and not 6 weeks of crash dieting.
Week 1: 6-12 January
I am bit late on this one since I actually started a week ago, but didn't post until now.
You can see my starting BF at 18.6% and ending the week at 18.1%. A steep drop the first 4 days, leveling off for 2 days and a slight gain on the last. All in all a great first week net -.5%
These results are all diet based as there was no major uptick in workouts. Overall I just stopped being fat. I cut the shit and ate better. I just eat sensibly. My diet is 90% plant based with the exception of the occasional cheese and butter. I have found a plant based "butter" that is OK, so now I am only on the occasional cheese. I haven't had cows milk in years. (Week 1 Tab)
Below is a link to my food journal. Remember I don't count calories, weigh shit, or anything else crazy.
Here are some pics of my favorite meals so far.
Two comments, but first, my bona fides...I have been @ 66-70 kg and between 5 and 7.5% BF for as long as I have been tracking - since the last century!
@Al Truscott Thanks for the comments.
On your #1. If I run in the AM I wake at 5:00, if I am sleeping in, I wake at 7:00. Either way I get out of bed, use the toilet, then weigh in. I usually just pee, but always what the scale would read if I had to sit on the toilet instead. And I agree 100%, I weigh in daily but not too concerned with what it reads on the daily basis, as long as it trends down.
For your #2: Do you know specifically a reliable "study which show the foods associated with maintaining good body comp,"? I'd be interested in reading it. On the calorie part, here is the conundrum,...What if I am looking to gain 5lbs of muscle and drop body fat? In my experience building muscle requires an increase in calories...
BTW: My new taste love affair is sweet potato and Sriracha sauce! Daamn it is good.
Also guys- if I spell potato wrong 300 times in a post, please shame me... that's fucking embarrassing 😀
Sweet potato and sriracha is intriguing..gonna have to try that.
I am just getting back into the game so my main focus in out season is body comp.
Some good feedback in these posts and I like the focus on BF as a main indicator..
@Bradley Cline My wife used to make sweet potato mash with some syrup, and chipotle. Also awesome!! It sweet and spicy!
Patrick, my signature line has had the goal of 14%BF for a while now. If you were ever 10% you would have abs. In the bodybuilding circle, they are "Masters" of looking at a person and judging BF. The scales out there are a nice guide, and I use the InBody at my gym to keep an eye on mine. BUT they are not that accurate, because of too many variables and the home versions are much less accurate. If you subscribe to what all the bodybuilders do to get lean, they will tell you that compound exercises (bench press, squats, etc) with fairly heavy weight will build lean muscle. But "abs are made in the kitchen". You need a focused diet, higher in lean protein, lower in carbs. Somewhat the opposite of the carbfests most of us consume during IM training.
Good reading is "Bigger, Leaner Stronger" by Mike Matthews. Here is a link from his site about calculating body fat. https://legionathletics.com/body-fat-percentage/
Hope this helps others as well.
@Gary Lewis thanks for the reply... OK maybe I had baby abs. 😀
And there was a time in my life when I trained a few natural body builders, so believe me, I've had enough Chicken breast, rice, and broccoli in my lifetime to feed a small nation.
My days of going to the gym for any serious gains are well behind me. All my strength sessions now are functional movement, plyometrics, bands, etc.
BUT, I agree 100% "abs are made in the kitchen"
@Patrick Large Before I posted, I did a short search to see if I could find it...I'm sure it was something I read in a paper like the NY Times, with reference to the actual study. I will re-double my efforts to find that. I remembered it because it seemed to list many of the foods I was eating on a regular basis and some which people were always shaming me into trying. The idea seemed to be that a calorie is not a calorie. Foods can give a sense of fullness in the stomach, and then to be fully digested on the way down and out, like nuts and whole fruits, which leave a lot of fiber for the bacteria to deal with that never enters our system. Not a new idea...
I'll keep looking for a reliable list of foods which have been documented to be associated with maintaining weight rather than adding to it.
@Patrick Large I think this is the study (From the New England Journal of Medicine) I was remembering; it" looked at the eating and exercise habits of more than 120,000 people, who were mainly white and well-educated." (From the Washington Post article I originally read in 2011!):
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1014296?query=featured_home
Week 2: 18.4% to 17.9%
First 2 weeks: 18.6 to 17.9
As we can see there is a downward trend which is good, albeit not a straight line. There are two major upticks which set things back, but because the following day it dropped a lot I am not sure 100% how accurate that is. But then again I am not super surprised when it happens, because the day prior wasn't spot on. That being said there is some low hanging fruit...
My food choices have been good overall. Since my wife is home and brought snacks back from the US there are more temptations in the house. The occasional handful of Cheezits or scramble is at arms length now.
I need to be better at timing my food and making sure that I am eating enough throughout the day so I am not starving at night and easily temped by bad choices. On days other than my tempo runs days, I can easily make a long window between last meal and first.
Things are going well and there is some tweaking to do. Other than focusing on timing and eating more during the day food will stay same. No need to change unless I am spot on with food and timing and then I plateau.
Again, food diary can be viewed here:
A few more food pics:
Spicy cauliflower and roasted Chickpeas over quinoa.
Roasted eggplant with half smashed chickpeas. Rucola, red onion, spicy walnut salsa, goat cheese.
Tons O' Green.
@Patrick Large Good on you for putting this out there and nice progress. I originally read this thread and did not want to seem negative on the idea of lose weight, gain weigh you just want 13% which is great.
Given you later comments about strength session I don't believe you will be gaining weight which is an important consideration for those in ultra's.
As for the abs it's interesting, years ago my brother always had 6/8 pack abs and I seem to have a little extra weight, but if you punched him in the gut there's no way he could take as much as I could. So having that strength is definitely important as you move to 13%. I'm cognizant of this fact as I lose a lot of weight trying to maintain as much muscle mass to make me a faster triathlete.
Thanks @Gordon Cherwoniak my whole reason behind the 13% was realizing the big difference between 200 lbs. 20% and 10%. The weight is the same, but the output is much much different.
For me this is a personal journey which is why I had (and still have) no interest in making it a Hoff style challenge. Documenting it just helps me keep it top of mind and hopefully when people comment there is some nugget that I can take away from it.
@Al Truscott and the NEJM agree that diet will be critical. As @Gary Lewis pointed out, my body fat distribution over the past few decades has changed. I have trained consistently, so the abdominal fat increase reflect dietary indiscretions... not a lack of miles strength training (that is reflected in my finish times). We are not typical of the subjects in the NEJM study... we participate in endurance sports. While it seems like 13% is a very attainable and healthy goal, eating well and training regularly will drive you toward your ideal weight and distribution. @Gordon Cherwoniak Points out that you are targeting ultra marathons as opposed to triathlons. The different strength challenges between runners and triathletes complicates discussions of weight and BF%. Optimizing diet and training will put you where you need to be for optimal health, training, AND performance. Carbohydrates are essential to fuel training and recovery. For individuals who are not training for ultras, they can be seen as evil and something to be avoided. If your diet contains fresh, unprocessed things, you don’t really need to sweat the carb count, however, calories-in minus calories-out remains the best predictor of weight loss.
@John Culberson
"While it seems like 13% is a very attainable and healthy goal, eating well and training regularly will drive you toward your ideal weight and distribution." - I agree 100%. For the most part I have a pretty healthy relationship with food, but somewhere along the way it got a little out of wack. This who thread is just a way for me to have it top of mind on a daily basis.
"Optimizing diet and training will put you where you need to be for optimal health, training, AND performance." -Couldn't agree more. I am still in the Run Focused OS, so training volume is still pretty low... but first things first. I think one the diet and food intake timing is locked in, once the km's add up the BF% will drop at a much quicker rate. Again not trying to but the carriage in from of the horse.
" If your diet contains fresh, unprocessed things..." -For the most part yes
"calories-in minus calories-out remains the best predictor of weight loss." - in a nut shell this is the entire game
The last piece that I am experimenting with is timing... especially on non training days. A lot of people (including myself) look at intermittent fasting and having 12-16 hours between last meal of the day and the first the next day or morning. I am most interested how that plays out if your last meal is 9:00pm (then bed at 10:00pm) and then not eating again until 12:00 or 1:00. Is the effect any different if last meal is 6:00pm and first meal at 8:00 or 9:00am.
Week 3 recap:
17.9% to 17.4%
Little bit of a shit show the first 2 days, but then back on track. A small slip up at the end of the week, but ended way down.
The first 3 weeks are definitely not perfect, net is way lower. The trends looks to be a steep fall in the beginning of the week and then giving some back at the end. Fortunately the net has been a nice lose.
This is the real shit- a smoothed out line from day 1 to 21. Staring at 18.6% and ending at 17.4 And with all this progress there really hasn't been a solid training week of training. Habits are getting better and timing is getting better. Nothing is perfect but major improvements.
As I mentioned it before once the training ramps us, I expect steeper falls in % even more.
Here's the link to the food journal:
And some food pics
Sweet potato with spicy Chili madras and pumpkin seeds. Rice cakes. My "Water Bottle"
falafel wrap
Roasted butternut squash with olive oil, Cinnamon, and onions. Garlic, Thyme, and white wine (in fry pan)