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The "I Need to Eat in Order to Train" aka NON-FASTED Thread
Ok, this is a counterpart to the thread where folks are sharing how fasted workouts (not eating before and sometimes during) the workouts helps them perform better. You can see that one here.
Diet is a completely personal issue, and in the interest of supporting your wherever you fall on the "calorie spectrum" you should understand both sides of the fasted equation.
If you eat before and during your workouts, please share your experience and rationale with the Team so we can learn. And please take a moment to read the other thread (link ^above^) so you can see if there are lessons for you over there!
Thanks for sharing...
~ Coach P
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I will kick this one off. I absolutely need to eat...not just for workouts, but for everything. I am the guy you want to put on your "armageddon travel list" cuz I have snacks for every situation. In terms of super powers -- Batman has a utility belt; I have a mobile pantry.
My Rationale
I did try going Paleo back in the day (early 2000s) and it was a nightmare for me. My quads were on fire as though I had done intervals...and I hadn't even finished my warm up.
Could I work out? Absolutely.
Could I do anything more than Zone 1 or Zone 2? Hells no.
I am now firmly on the food makes me a better athlete side of the fence, as in before, during and after! 🤣
Some basics for me:
What's your calorie story and info?
~ Coach P
OK, I give my report after 2.5 weeks of this daily 16 hour fast exercise.
I would not use my experience as a standard. I have a weird f@#!-up body with an overly sensitive GI gut, a type "A" personality that hangs out on the overly anxious side (which I try to hide), and an average but healthy physiology. I am NOT a talented athlete though I strive to work hard and smart.
After 2.5 weeks, I have actually gained ~3 lbs while losing 2 percentage points of body fat. My body comp has weirdly improved, less fat replaced by muscle which is a win at age 52. I'll report back again after another 2-3 weeks. So far, OS wkos have not been affected. I use a fitness APP (My Fitness Pal) to track calories ingested during the 8 hour feeding window and to help drive the right mix of Carbs, protein and fats (currently set at 50% carbs, 30% protein, 20% fat).
I eat lots of Costco/Sprouts organic lean meats, fruits and vegetables.
Over Christmas I started experimenting with a bulletproof coffee (8 oz coffee, 1 Tbsp Ghee, 1Tbsp MCT oil) in the morning 30-min before some of my longer, less intense, weekend rides and runs. Historically I down an espresso shot and jump on the carbohydrate train with a piece of Ezekiel toast and some honey prior to workouts.
I started to give this approach some thought after IMAZ in November when I had gut troubles during the bike and run. (Although I don't think it was caused by carbohydrates early in the a.m. since I did not have any problems during training)
My simple rationale on the bulletproof coffee is to process fats at the start of less intense workouts and delay my intake of simple carbohydrates (gels, GE, etc.). I've done 8-10 workouts so far and have not noticed any ill effects. I'm able to wait until about 60 min into a ride or run to start supplementing with carbs. For the shorter, intense workouts in the OS, I've stayed with the toast and honey as I want to ensure I am fueled at the start of those.
I'm not on any particular fasting protocol outside of a self-imposed food cut-off at 8:30 pm.
I always feel a little embarrassed when the conversation turns to weight, body comp, diet, and nutrition, both in general and for training. Cause my "problem" is the exact opposite of 95% of folks. When I was 21, I weighed 143#. I gained to about 148 over the next 8 years while deep into medical training. When I took a winter off to ski every day @ age 30, my weight dropped to ...143. Over the next 15 years, it slowly crept up to 154 while I was heavy into parenting and lots of work responsibilities. Thru all this time, I kept swimming, riding, and working in the gym. Age 48, I biked across the country, and my weight fell to 147, never to climb above 150 once I discovered triathlon. Really, I wasn't trying to do anything special, maybe I just don't like to eat or maybe I have good gut bacteria.
Got into 15-20 hour a week training for the 1-3 IMs I would be doing every year, and found it was a struggle to keep my weight at ... 143. When I crashed myself into the ICU for two weeks, I came out weighing 130 (that;s a great diet plan, by the way), and it took maybe 6 years to get above 145 again. Aged up this past year, did 5 long distance tris in 12 months, and dropped to 141. I'm am so glad to be back at 147 and holding now.
What do I eat? When training, whatever I want, whenever I want, as much as I want. I do try to eat good foods, but long ago learned that a bagel smeared with cream cheese and peanut butter was a good way to avoid starvation on a long distance multi-day bike trip. Potato chips are an excellent source of grease and salt. Clif bars are saviors when skiing all day in frog snow ("knee-deep, knee-deep".)
Every day I eat: Oatmeal, raisins, blueberries, peanut butter, orange marmalade, orange juice, yogurt, almonds, cashews. Most days I eat tomato soup and rice, hummus and pita chips. For dinner I eat a Bison burger (in a 200 cal bun) 1-2 x a week, fish a couple times a week, and yogurt/berry/granola other days. Maybe once as week, I'll splurge at a Taco Time (not to be confused with the Bell)
When training hard, I make sure to get in 300 cal/hour, and end hard workouts with 8-12 oz of chocolate milk.
I weigh myself daily, and try to keep my body water % (as measured on the Tanita scale) around 57.5%. My BF on the Tanita will be as low as sub 5 when leaned up for an A race, and as high as 7.5 around holiday season.
I wish I could join in the fun people seem to be having with intermittent fasting and vegan diets - my wife is delving into both now, our kitchen is filled with books, fresh fruit and vegatables and the constant sound of a blender - but I'm afraid to leave the lane which has seemed so safe all my life.
Lots of interesting thoughts between this and the fasted post. My experience is that I definitely need something, even if it is small. I started exercising regularly in 2013 after several years of pushing exercise aside as a thing of secondary importance. When I did start exercising regularly, I started out fasted, but complained of nausea and running out of steam after about 30-45 minutes. After being encouraged to eat some carbs beforehand, how I felt and performed during my workouts improved dramatically. This summer, I switched to just eating half a banana 10-20 minutes prior a workout (at the advice of a nutritionist I was seeing to assist with fueling for my first season of IM training and a longer-term goal of improving my body composition). That has seemed to still do the trick for me as a heartier pre-workout snack, provided I bring in some additional fuel for longer workouts (longer than an hour).
Oddly, for about 5 weeks after the ironman, I found that despite keeping with my normal pre-workout fueling, that I was returning to nausea and fatigue about 30 minutes or so into the workout that would diminish if I ate a gel or chews mid-workout...even for an easy bike or easy swim. During those weeks, I started to drink some diluted Gatorade endurance for some additional carbs, and that solved the problem. Thankfully, after about 6 weeks of recovery, I was able to return to my "normal" morning workout eating routine (bites of banana beforehand and only additional fuel for a longer session).
I love food, I love carbs.... on the whole I have a pretty healthy relationship with food, I fuel all workouts either with for eg: breakfast before and during with gels, energy bars & drink or banana's.
These tend to be the main "processed" foods I will eat on regular basis, other than that I try to eat clean (non processed) and eat local (only eat meat that has come from the farms aorund me & that I know the animals have been treated right), if I cant get any local meat I normally go vegetarian or fish.
Im not super fussy, if I fancy a burger or pizza once in while, I will, Ive tried denying myself for long periods before and I just end up bingeing on junk when I cave in if do that, but 95% of the time I try to stick to the "clean/local" rule.
Like others have said, I calorie count with Myfitness pal & ill try to come out even on most days, that way, I know im good to go for tomorrow's workouts and my weight stays pretty consistant.
Generally around this time of year Ill find out what they are giving out on the run for my A race and start training with it, most times I can train myself/gut to accept it.
I need to fuel my workouts, I have tried not & 45 mins is about my limit other than a recovery ride, then I can last about an hour or so. I perfom so much better fueled and TBH dont really have any interest in trying any other way.
Swimming is a bit of grey area, I swim with a masters group and its early mornings, I try to get a banana in before I leave the house, but cant always stomach it so ill have an energy drink on the side of the pool but late last year I experimented a bit with "UCAN" shakes ,only one of the flavors didnt repeat on me but I think thats somthing Im going try again as I certainly was starting to perform more conistantly for longer durations in the swim sessions when using the UCAN.
Typical day;
Breakfast: Muesli & yoghurt, coffee
Lunch: Sandwich (homemade bread & tuna salad) & fruit
Dinner: Fish/chicken/hallumi, lots of veg.
Snacks: Protien shake or bar after all workouts, fruit & nuts.
Hey @Coach Patrick that eating looks pretty darn close to paleo, minus the fig newtons but is that really all you eat for breakfast? And second question since I know you are north of 40 - how do you have a protein shake at night and not wake up all night peeing :)
I’ve always struggled with my body comp, trying any diet and losing / gaining and getting stuck at around 190 -200 pounds (~ 6 feet tall). Using MyFitnessPal and focusing on eliminating processed foods (only few exceptions allowed) and eating smart brought my weight under 180 when I did IM Wisconsin early September. I’m currently around 180lbs with 12% body fat (52 yo) with the goal to get closer to 170-175 poundsby end of OutSeason.
I’m in the camp of if I don’t eat anything before a workout it’s a wasted workout, it will either be lightheaded (pretty bad when running on the TM) or have no energy for the hard workouts. My typical day is like this:
Pre-workout breakfast will be black coffee and a gel (if I run) with one sports drink bottle (either Tailwind or SIS) for an hour workout (and water). If it’s a hard bike wko I will have either cliff blocks or similar (pure sugar) to get me through the wko.
Post workout breakfast will be steel oats, a yogurt, 4 Belvita cookies and fruits (blueberries, banana)
Mid morning snack (half a turkey sandwich, hummus, no mayo)
Lunch (big) is a big salad with good carbs (black rice) and chicken breast
Mid afternoon snack (the other half of the sandwich) to ensure I don’t get home starving (which is not cool for my wife and not good as I will literally eat anything I find)
Dinner (small) around 6-7pm (ideally fish or lean meat + big vegetable soup and maybe a small carb on the side) – I really make sure to be done eating by 7.30pm latest to have at least 10 hours before ingesting anything the next morning.
I drink a lot of coffee during the day (only black coffee), even at night, I know it’s a diuretic but it’s so good…I allow for the occasional pizza or Mexican food or the whole box of cookies (maybe one “bad” meal a week) but am focused on eating smart the rest of the week.
Good portion control, no heavy meals for dinner, no eating too late at night and having a healthy relationship with food, it has be working for me in terms of next days workouts (and dropping weight).
And yes @Daniel Ballin, a soup at night means frequent bathroom trips 😊 but I've sadly got used to it...
Same post from the counter thread as I do both depending on the workout type and length.
I've read from multiple sources and believe that after a nights sleep, one has enough glycogen stored in the body for 60 to 90 mins of physical activity (if they adequately fueled the previous evening). Therefore, for workouts lasting up to 90 mins typically I do not eat before or during workouts. However, if I have a brick workout or a second workout later in the day planned, I'll have sports drink/gel during the first workout. For workouts lasting 2+ hours, I will eat 100-200 cals about 30 to 60 mins prior and take a sports drink and/or gels during.
As opposed to @Al Truscott, I have settled between 190 and 200lbs (10-11% BF) for the past 40 years, with consistent year-round swim, bike, and run training. My schedule favors shorter intense training... even during IM builds. (That’s probably limited my performance). My typical hour-long morning WKO (usually a swim or bike) is fueled by coffee, and a small 300cal balanced “breakfast” afterwards. My OCD personality has packed the same protein-bar, hard-boiled egg, Greek yogurt combo for years. Lunch is more calories (not crazy... I don’t count) and varied, and technically 18 hours from my last real “meal,” so I guess its almost like I’m fasting? I snack with a couple of 100cal (nuts and crackers... again the exact same type and brand for years) baggies in the afternoon and often run after work. Running for a 195lb man takes a lot of work, so I pre-fuel with a gel and then...annoy my wife by grazing on (unhealthy) snacks before eating a relatively unrestricted dinner that may or may not be particularly healthy or balanced... and often includes “seconds.”I could improve body comp a bit by laying off some of the pre-dinner and post-dinner snacks/deserts, but rationalize that I’m replacing glycogen... and its worked pretty well for a long time. At parties, I am well-known to eat lots of everything... particularly desert (my replacement for alcohol). The health effects of that strategy is slowly starting to change my behavior. Just because I am maintaining a relatively successful body composition doesn’t mean that I am immune to diet-related health problems. (Luckily, I don’t have any yet... something that (professionally) I attribute to considerable muscle-mass. (Muscle is health). The amount of muscle that an athlete carries is part genetic, and part work. I swam competitively at age 6... did a lot of running, and climbed a lot of trees. I am fortunate to have been a lean, muscular kid. Everyone has their own genetics and history... that they can’t really change. Matching intake with current body comp and output is a very individualized puzzle. We are a select group who have the established lifestyle of high intensity exercise (and teamwork) nailed down pretty well. That provides opportunity to find our own “best nutrition practice” that fits our life... and try to improve our personal average daily nutrition. I also suspect that many of us have OCD tendencies that make intake monitoring and manipulation a double-edged sword. I feel bad when I sugar -binge!
When I do go longer than 2 hours (or 1 hour running), like @Derrek Sanks, I basically use a race nutrition strategy... which is a lot more calories for me than him ;-)
if it helps achieve editorial balance against how good everyone is eating, my food intake this week matches what you would probably see if a 12-year-old found a $50 bill in a 7/11 parking lot.
I eat or drink calories for anything longer than 1-1:30. If I know I’m going to do a long day I start before/during my first wko. If I don’t eat then I feel worse than what I should. I try to eat a protein bar at night if I’m hungry. I typically have at least a couple hours a day I will eat anything. Beer, queso, chips, and ice cream are really good :). If I train hard, what I eat seems to be a non-issue
say's the guy who's like 120lbs... if I ate like that, I'd balloon up to 230lbs. I guess that's why these are all a bunch of n=1 experiments (within certain boundaries)...
@Dave Tallo Thanks, man, for that laugh. A cookie a day keeps the blues away, I say.