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JOS 2020 Run Thread - Week 8
We are officially past the half way mark of the JOS - how is everyone doing? I love the comments of all the hard work going into the run and will look forward to see that progression lead to amazing running in the spring and summer race season!
The GroupMe thread is seeing consistent action, along with the Run and bike threads. Keep the focus going and most importantly be consistent. Consistency trumps all in most every stage of our training lives. Week 8 looks similar to week 7 so that should help with the consistent theme.
Run Focus
- L1/2/3 will be running 5/5/6 times this week
- Repeat miles on Wednesday for L2/3 and some 1/2 miles for L1
- Weekend: you run both Sat and Sun, with Sat @ - 1:30 on the long run and Sun @ - 45 post the C&C ride
Bike Focus:
- L1/2/3 will be running 5/5/6 times this week
- Repeat miles on Wednesday for L2/3 and some 1/2 miles for L1
- Weekend: You run after the bike for 70-90 mins on Sunday
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A bit of a read but really interested in any feedback on my run plans which I detail in the 2nd paragraph. The third paragraph is just a little information about where I am at and where I want to be at.
A lot of work going on for everyone last week. Let's keep it rolling! Got in 4 runs last week for 19.86 +.5 miles walk for a total of 20.36 miles. Bailed on the Long Run on Saturday and moved it to Sunday because I was just tired from the biking and some extended runs earlier in the week.
I am shifting things by a day to keep my Sunday a little more open. No travel this week so looking forward to a "normal" (haha) week. Going to do the Friday Freight Train ride (weight doping included) again as part of my long ride. It has been a lot of fun to do that ride. Planning 6 runs this week to stay around 20 miles and spread that distance out over more runs. Plan is 2 x 2 mile, 2 x 3 mile, 1 x 4 mile, and 1 x 6 mile. Mileage over the last four weeks has been 4 runs - 15.75, 4 runs - 15.35, 5 runs - 18.17, 4 runs - 20.36. I do not want to increase any more as I know that as I go above 20 miles I have started to have problems in the past. I also know that the longer runs put a lot more stress on my body so I want to try to limit those. So, as I said, just going to keep it at 20 miles and spread it out a little for a few weeks and let my muscles, joints, tendons, etc. settle in to the mileage. I am very happy with where I am at right now and do not want to injure myself and have to check in to run jail. If anybody has any suggestions please feel free to comment.
Now just going to put this out there. I am a heavy guy. I am 5' 8" and have been overweight most of my life. Even when I was in the Army I always had to get the pinch test done whenever they had a weigh in. I always passed because I was in great shape then, just did not meet the weight standard. I hovered around 205 and was running the 2 miles in 13:45. Then life happened and I quit exercising. I started this journey in 2010 at a weight of 280 pounds. I have managed to stay around 245 most of the time since then (I like beer and food). I got down to 227 for IM Louisville in 2017 but did that in the last couple of months before the race. After that, I managed to stay right around 235 until early 2019. Then the weight started creeping back up. I was back at 260 in the middle of October 2019 and decided that was enough. I got focused back on training, started logging food, and started a program called Noom to make changes to my mindset with food. I am hovering around 230 right now and losing slowly. My goal is to be under 200 by July which will be about 20 weeks out from IM AZ. Then my goal is to get as close to 180 as I can by race day. I want to race IM AZ, not just finish it. The journey so far has been great and looking forward to what this year has to offer.
@Bill Eckert I've been racing IM's on and off for 10 years year completed 3 and pulled the plug on 2 others. My race weight has been 200 for the first one and then 225-235 for all the rest.
My last one in 2017 I finally hit the run training so that I was not having overuse problems. I've never really had injuries but always ramped up too fast. I did Lake Placid on 3 weeks of 20+ miles the rest were below. I also had a crash and missed the last couple weeks of training.
A few points on the run training. Also talk to Coach P in the Micro thread
1) I track the mileage and time trying to ensure both are not going up too fast. For me when I start it's hard to use the 10% rule when I start up so low but have started pre-OS with 2X30"' of running over 10-15' sessions. For OS work the high intensity adds distance at a faster rate, it's also where injuries can occur, track the time in zn 3, zn 4 running so you also know that you are not doing too much extra there.
2) I've found that walking to an from work 8-10 miles a week has provided a much better base to build up my run. Don't discount adding in some walk time once you are comfortable with the 20 miles or even get in an extra 1 or 2 miles a low impact cost. It will also help contribute to the weight loss.
3) Figure out your triggers for injury. You mention distance then just go for consistency. Right now you are far away from IM so if you have no other races on your schedule you could even reduce the longer runs and just go more balanced. The challenge is getting in the speed work so 4 might be the minimum 6 you might be able to trim down.
Just make sure you start increasing the long run far enough out so you can get in on schedule for the plans.
4) On the injuries be proactive before they arrive. I have plantar issues and ice, stretch, roll, get massage every 6 weeks, use my hot tub to ensure I can keep going.
5) When you do feel things are building up take a down week. Reduce the volume significantly, I've gone to 60% of the previous week to as low as 0% taking the full week off running. My last down week was 0% and only the 8-10 miles of walking. I've found I need 2-4 of these down weeks to keep me to the race healthy. If you ramp up too fast or do too long of a run you will know. The key is shutting it down not thinking I can work through this. You maybe able to but until I have run durability I stick to the down time protocol when pains come back.
6) Watch the intensity. This could also be a trigger when in doubt ramp that up slower as well
Weight loss comments
1) Having gone from 250-260 down to 225-235 for my IM race. I find that weight loss through the OS can be tough as the fatigue piles on. Get the extra rest and keep disciplined logging the food
2) I find losing weight after about 4 weeks of the IM is very difficult for me. The long bike are particularly hard in a caloric deficit, 1 hour to 1.5 hours in the OS is fine but after 2 hours I feel it. Not saying you will be the same and I was trying to lose too much weight per week, at 1 lbs a week this maybe manageable.
3) I find after week 5-6 on the IM plans I eat to a caloric balance.
4) Fuel during workouts to train my gut. I.e. Don't short yourself there or in recovery following big session try to get you 500 calories day in you other meals as much as possible.
5) This year I started losing the weight prior to the OS and just focused on weight loss. I've been holding for several weeks but also noticed the belts been coming in so gaining some muscle mass. Don't get discouraged if you hit a bit of a plateau.
6) I'm 6' tall and currently just above 200 and looking for the 180's for my 1/2 in end of July. I'd love to be 175. 22 weeks for me to the A race so I need to refocus and get there myself.
7) Don't discount work or life stresses if those things get you eating off track. Have a plan to deal with them.
I took Sunday off. Extra time with Brody in the morning, my family as we went out for lunch, and then spent the evening with my wife hitting the hot tub to complete the evening. Missed my 2nd bike or the OS and 1st run I skipped, not including the shut down week.
Back at it today ~ 32' with some strides.
@Gordon Cherwoniak Thanks for the response. A wealth of information there.
Awesome work so far with your weight. I read your WSM bio and have followed your posts about body composition. It really is good to know where others have come from and where they are now.
My injury issues have mostly come in my achilles, piriformis, and knee.
I have been stretching out my legs and foam rolling my calves after almost every run and that seems to help the achilles.
I have a sacral wedge that I lay on after almost every run and that helps with the piriformis issues.
The knee thing only seems to happen with too much intensity or running down a steeper hill. I am very careful about both of those now and that seems to help. I also have to watch my VO2 intensities on the bike as that has also caused some issues with the knees in the past.
I need to get a massage scheduled as that has helped in he past. Thanks for making me think about that again.
I like the thoughts on reducing the long runs. That is definitely a place where I have struggled in the past and caused problems. It is so hard mentally to not want to do the prescribed time on the run. At the same time I also know, as you said, I have plenty of time to build that longer run in the future. I really need to focus on durability/consistency now and let go of the runs as shown in the plan and just do what works for me. That is why I chose bike focus for the OS and I just need to remember that.
I like the walk time suggestion. I have used that in the past. I also have used the elliptical a lot in the past. My long run training for IM Louisville was all done on the elliptical. I need to keep those in mind as an aid to build that longer base.
I had started back a run walk program on 10/14/19. I was making good progress with that and was up to 18-20 miles per week. Average from 10/14 to 12/15 was 17.6 mpw. I hurt my knee on 12/15 towards the end of a longer run coming down a steeper hill. It took me until the start of the OS to start back running. I have been very careful since then.
So here is my revised plan. I am going to stick with the 20 miles this week. I am going to back that 6 miles down to 4. I ran 2 yesterday. Going to bump the other 2 up to 3 and one of the 3's up to 4. That will give me 2, 2x3, and 3x4. Next week I will do 4x3 and 2x4. That already seems soooo much better than trying to knock out 6 again. Yes I did 6 twice last week and I am still okay but I really feel like too much of that may cause problems.
On the weight loss side. It is getting difficult with the OS. I am definitely fueling my runs and my rides. Using GE for all runs and weekday rides. Just not going too crazy with it. Adding some additional fueling during the long bike. I have been eating a banana and an apple or two during those.
Not to worried about the rate of loss right now. The scales are generally trending down and that is all I really want to see. Definitely getting my food relationship in a much healthier place than it has ever been. Making better choices is becoming more and more just who I am as time progresses.
Thanks again for you input!
@Bill Eckert A couple other thoughts from your response
1) Weights. Do you know if you have any muscle imbalance issues? I spent 18 years figure skating and once I figure out 2-4 exercises, mainly leg extensions and curls 3X20 with fairly light weights I did not have knee issues for the final few years I skated.
Not saying you will have equal success with just weight but if you do have some muscle balance issues or some fine some strength exercise that help particular strengthening muscles for down hill running it could really help. Given we are getting deeper in to the OS don't over stress you body with new exercises on top of the bike/run workouts.
2) Treadmill - I find working in the treadmill can help given the cushioning. You can also control the grade, typically I do no decline. Walk the steep hills or be very careful even still as you are only 2 months out.
3) Split runs - As the runs get longer use the split run if you have the bandwidth for the long days 2X4, 2X5 etc. I did this for Lake Placid 2017 quite a bit but did get in some 14-16 mile runs prior to. You should get more than this but it's all I could get my body to handle ramping up for the race.
4) With the more, shorter runs be aware of multiple days of running in a row. Take a day off or two if needed and don't stack that mileage in. Day's off are just hat and that's okay to stay healthy.
5) Plan for the down weeks in your schedule even as you lose weight. You will feel great, comparatively the your heavier self. Cardiovascular we adapt much faster than our muscles, tendons etc. particularly with the cycling. The run durability prior to the is in 3 - 4 week segments and that's for those with some conditioning coming in. I've been under the 8 ball for many OS' coming in off the couch and over weight with sometimes on ly 2-4 weeks of cycling.
@Bill Eckert @Gordon Cherwoniak Great stuff here in the thread! Thank you both for being open and sharing what has worked for you in the past.
I did 35 min on the TM yesterday after work since I didn't have time after the bike ride in the morning. Nice and easy at TRP HR, with 3 x 20 sec strides towards the end.
This morning I did 60 min again on the TM, with the 3 x 1 mile intervals. I ran the intervals around 6:50-6:55 min pace and slow-jogged each 4 min rest. The back half of the second and the entire third interval were difficult, but not overly so.
I can't wait to get back outside...
Wed. got in the 2X1mi intervals. Still just a little wheezey from being sick, but still went pretty well.
Easy 35 min durability treadmill run this morning, preceded by the EN outseason week 8 session.
On Wednesday I introduced my legs to the 3 minutes run 1 minute walk regiment. That went pretty well, but I did notice the difference between 2 minutes and 3 minutes. It seemed more of a jump than when I went from 1:1 to 2:1. My legs were a little heavy yesterday, probably because I rode to work 3 days this week, including Thursday. I moved the Saturday bike to today and I'll do the long run tomorrow. We'll see how my legs handle the 3:1 ratio then.
@Bill Eckert @Mark Maurer : Walking is a weight bearing activity that, at some level, occurs during the run leg of most long course triathlons. I have been coached to include “walking with purpose” as an aspect of training. Run/Walk has gotten me back from injuries every time. During a particularly challenging recovery, I never went higher than a 3:1 ratio before running a solid 5K in an early spring triathlon. I then built to 7:1, and had a reasonable 70.3 run two months later... and had a great A-race in September.
The weather on Monday was so nice that I couldn’t help myself, and ran a tempo paced 5miler the day after my Sun long run. A recurring high hamstring tweak was the result of my foolishness. I worked my way through a 5-run week with slow improvement. During yesterday’s 85’ run at TRP, the longest of the year, it was getting quite uncomfortable at mile 3... and suddenly vanished a half mile later! I completed the run for a 20mi week, and am planning a swim/bike Sunday. Looking back, I should have been 3:1 run/walking, and was lucky that things didn’t go differently! I really think that swimming helped loosen things up. I should hit 10K yards for the week tomorrow... short course season in 8 weeks.
@John Culberson I'm a firm believer in walk breaks. I almost always walk the aid stations in the IM run and I had my PR IM run following that strategy. My best stand alone marathon time hhas been when I took a walk break every except the last few. By then it's harder to start running again so I don't want to slow down.
Speaking of which, I did a longish run yesterday using a 3:1 ratio. Ran 6.9 miles at a 10:03 average pace. I was mostly running a TRP pace for the running portion. I forgot to look at the watch occasionally and stretched the run out past 3 minutes a couple of times.
Onward and upward.
Nice to see all the hard work in the forum here! you all are crushing it!
@Mark Maurer The use of walking during IM run allows time to consume nutrition, and lower HR to improve absorption. Over the course of 26.2 mi, it doesn’t slow me down that much, as I find that my “running pace” stays higher over the distance. I have never ended up walking the final miles of an IM because I use walking WITH PURPOSE liberally during the entire distance. I do not consider these “walk breaks!”