Stepping up to ultras
Hello Team. I'm back in the EN house and looking to tackle a new challenge. I'm putting my triathlon ways on hold for now and am looking to tackle ultras. I am not confident that I could safely train myself to run these distances so I need your help. :-)
My goal is to accomplish epic endurance feats :-) I'm addicted to the drug and am ready to look beyond Ironman.
TLDR Summary
I'm looking for
1) Tips for a road racer/Ironman athlete to help make the transition.
2) Gear suggestions. I've been running with HOKA Bondi and I love them...a lot. Are they good for Ultras??? IDK. That's why I'm here.
3) Nutrition in training ideas. Even though I've been with the team from 2013 - 2018 I never managed crack the code and have a happy stomach on race day.
Back Ground for those who care
The two ultra races I'm looking into are a 10 hour race in July and a 50 or 100 mile race in November. I've leaving the 50 or 100 mile in the air for now because I do not know what my body is capable of and I do not want to set myself up for injury. Both of these races are in South Louisiana so flat. In fact The only elevation I can gain near my house is a small overpass.
I've completed 4 Ironman races and 10 70.3s.
I've just finished a Marathon and am ready to focus on this new challenge. I am looking to incorporate Zwift races for my adrenaline pumping training appetite.
Comments
@tim cronk ?
Hello Team. I'm back in the EN house and looking to tackle a new challenge. I'm putting my triathlon ways on hold for now and am looking to tackle ultras. I am not confident that I could safely train myself to run these distances so I need your help. :-)
Hi Chris and welcome back to the team. There is a lot of Ultra in EN these days. We had 3 members @Gabe Peterson , @Tim Sullivan , @Leslie Knight run 50k's last weekend , 2 of them ran 50k's the weekend before as well. With more silliness planned . New plans, webinars, etc to get caught up on. New communication through GroupMe to follow. Note: The Ultra GM requires a strong stomach :-) but we do every once in a while talk Ultra. Lots of Ultra Race Reports in the house as well that can help answer some of your questions below.
My goal is to accomplish epic endurance feats :-) I'm addicted to the drug and am ready to look beyond Ironman.
Yes the right place.
TLDR Summary
I'm looking for
1) Tips for a road racer/Ironman athlete to help make the transition.
Pick an Ultra plan, start a thread with specifics of the race you are training for to discuss . Biggest tip is probably forget pace, since your first race is 10hrs focus on time not miles, develop what work for you run/walk and eating plans.
2) Gear suggestions. I've been running with HOKA Bondi and I love them...a lot. Are they good for Ultras??? IDK. That's why I'm here.
YES if you love them they will be perfect for a flat non technical Ultra. I ran a flat trail 100 The Ghost Train in road shoes. BTW The Ghost Train is an EN focus race in NH end of October. Its sold out but they always clear the wait list if you are at all interested in a cooler temp 100 in the same time frame as yours, get on the waitlist since it cost nothing. Technical courses may require more of a trail shoe.
3) Nutrition in training ideas. Even though I've been with the team from 2013 - 2018 I never managed crack the code and have a happy stomach on race day.
Real food is the general go to for mere mortals. Think eating contest with some running. Back to back long days give us lots of practice. The reduced intensity of Ultra makes it easier to process the calories.
Back Ground for those who care
The two ultra races I'm looking into are a 10 hour race in July and a 50 or 100 mile race in November. I've leaving the 50 or 100 mile in the air for now because I do not know what my body is capable of and I do not want to set myself up for injury. Both of these races are in South Louisiana so flat. In fact The only elevation I can gain near my house is a small overpass.
So awesome. A fixed time race is something I have not done yet. Focus on time not miles.
I've completed 4 Ironman races and 10 70.3s.
I've just finished a Marathon and am ready to focus on this new challenge. I am looking to incorporate Zwift races for my adrenaline pumping training appetite.
Since you are looking to continue cycling and appear to have a slight concern about injury. I'd recommend the EN 50mile/100k balanced plan . A 10hr race maybe between the 50k and 50 mile distance for you but I believe after looking at your results you are much closer to the 50 mile distance at 10hrs , maybe even a bit over.
@tim cronk Thanks. I’ll dive into the race reports and see what I can learn.
I know how to train for Ironman. I am used to practicing pacing, gear and feeding on a day in day out training basis. How does this translate to ultra? How much do I need to geek out on ultra and how much do I just run to plan?
And how close to the race should I start getting race specific?
some of the other items going through my head right now are
1) Looks like I’ll need to run with a camel pack. What’s the right size/type? Should I wear it for all of my runs, even if I don’t need it? Just long runs?
2) same for head lamp?
more to come I’m sure
Yes IM experience and practice translates very well to Ultra. As with all things there are levels depending on what your goals are. Just running is an option in the plans , success and injury free can be had with this simple approach , and not a bad way to go on your first Ultra build. So no need to geek out but if your an Ironman you wont be able to help yourself :-)
Depending on race/experience etc 4-8 weeks is a good window to focus on specificity, flatter shorter courses can towards the low end of that range. Walking/hiking hard will come into play here. Flat maybe less time but does not mean easier. Its like a flat IM bike vs. hilly IM bike - there is no rest and no change to muscles used. I was more hurt after flat Ghost Train than I was for Leadville.
Running packs are individual. Get one that is comfortable and holds enough fluid and gear for your intended training and racing distances. No need to wear all the time but definitely on your long runs to practice. I have 2 liter, 1 liter, and single bottle packs and use them all. Depending on the race AS set ups determines my choice on race day. Perfect scenario is training with a large pack and racing with a small one .
Lights also individual - I dont mind small lightweight lower lumen lights to start the day if only needed for an hour... I'm fresh etc. At night after your really tired , I like to see and use a combination and sometimes both headlamp Nao+ from Petzl and a waistband light. Even tried handheld . Bottomline I hate them all but you need to see. A must practice absolute must practice item.
@Chris Oubre welcome back! There used to be an Epic Forum that had a bunch of good ultra content, mostly from @tim cronk and me. You could look through our old posts as a resource.
I've also started a Strava ultrarunning group to stay motivated during quarantine. We have different challenges and virtual races. Let me know if you're interested and I can add you.
@tim cronk great feedback. Thank you.
@Gabe Peterson thanks for the info tip. Yes please. Add me to all relevant groups. It’s why I joined TeamEN and not PlanEN.
Hey, Chris- welcome back! I was you last year, except with only one Ironman to my name. I moved to Ohio and have 2 state parks with trails here and thought it would be a good time to take up trail running. I started just running trails and then like you, thought it would be a good idea to go far. I learned by practice and reading.
Regarding equipment- I hate Hoka, so no advice there. I'm on my second pair of Altra though and love them- wide toe box. For runs of three or more hours, I got a running vest. There are a million out there and I looked at REI and never saw any I liked. Then one day at a group run I saw a lady with a vest I knew I would love and ordered it that night. It's a Salomon 5 Skin. Soft flasks up front and room for a bladder in back. I don't think you'll like running with a Camelback. You need something well balanced with pockets to hold your nutrition and stuff.
And speaking of nutrition- there are people here way smarter than me about nutrition, but I found Tailwind and love it. The flavor is mild and I can drink it all day. You can concentrate it to use it as your sole calorie source or dilute and add solids. I put 2 scoops (200 cal) in each 500ml flask and supplement with solids. I like Honey Stinger waffles and a new brand of some kind of fig bars I like. I guess you just have to practice until you find what works. Sage advice, I know.
Come over the to ultra running forum!
I'll be posting a race report there in a minute that talks about what I learned between my first 50K and my second.
@Chris Oubre Welcome to the wacky world or ultra. Hopefully I can share some insight as an ultra newbie, doing my first few last year. Some were sanctioned races and some were not (aka Running the Grand Canyon).
I got into ultras (or trial running in general) because I was burned out with triathlon, competing, road marathons, life etc. Ultra running for me is more of a "religious" experience than a race.
My first bit of advice is to ask yourself "why". It is stereotypical, but also a bit true, that ultra runs and runners are a bit hippie, and there is little to no hype at the beginning, middle, or end of these races. So don't the thrill of "the chute", red carpet, grand stands of Ironman. Have you seen the video short clip of @Francis Picard finishing the Moab240, finishing 240 fucking miles... there was literally nobody at the finish except for like @Gabe Peterson and some fucking tumbleweed.
I would also encourage you to not over complicate things, just get out and run. All this advice is food for thought, but doesn't really mean shit because there is no way to know how you are going to feel after being on your feet for 24+ hours. Like anything, it's trial and error.
In terms of gear: get it when you need it. I run with a buddy in the forest regularly, he in road shoes and I in trail shoes. And he smokes my ass every time. I think you only need super aggressive gnarly trails shoes when the course is super aggressive gnarly. Comfort is key.
For nutrition, I would try everything and anything. For me it's hard to eat real food, which most people will agree is an absolute must. I would say almost impossible to go the distance on sugary gels, drink, bars, etc.
Lastly,I would just keep in mind that compounded fatigue increases exponentially the longer you go. Just as you wouldn't say I can do a 5hr 70.3 so I can bang out a 10hr Ironman. And remember, there is no equivalent to an ironman tat on the calf, and there is no "Ultra club" points or point system or championships. There is no pomp and circumstance, only you and a few other freaks out there trying to push yourself to the brink...
Oh yeah... the low key aspect. I kind of like that. Everyone is petty chill at the trail races I’ve been to
And there’s never a medal. The race will have some little trinket that is unique. I will say that my first one last year I was a little disappointed bc I thought my trinket would at least say the name of the race on it. It was kind of an ugly little clay cup with the race name on the bottom. And even the bib was a recycled turkey trot 5K bib. I thought that was tacky!
I don’t need anything fancy, but I’d at least like the race name visible on my trinket.
Has anyone had the same experience? Is this what I should expect?
I actually really like the super low key aspect of it and don't mind at all a recycled weird bib from years ago. And although I've kept every medal I've gotten at a race, I don't do these races for the swag.
In Europe races are even more scaled down and there are no trinkets at all (and races are SO cheap).
As I mentioned in an earlier post, everyone's "why" is different.
Being in the mountains and grinding for me is almost a religious experience and it is the way that I manage depression and anxiety. It think when that's your "why" you show up the best you can, enjoy your beer afterwards with your fellow competitor and go home.
For me the mountains are magical and temple like.
re: race swag. I've done two "ultra" running events, a ~46 mile run in Pine Mountain Georgia in the late 90's and a more traditional "big box" Northface 50 miler in 2011
The Georgia race was the lowest key event I've ever done with a starting line, a semi-marked trail, and a half way table manned by the organizer's wife. No aide stations, no support, just you and the trail. We literally ran up to cabins and found water hoses / faucets when we needed to. No fan fare and no medals / finishing trinkets. There were less than 100 people total involved.
The Northface race was more in-line with the mass participation events you see today. Bibs, aid stations every ~5-6 miles, a medal, and a t-shirt that you could get heat pressed with the event name and your time. I skipped the pressing and kept the plain blue Northface shirt clean. I still have that shirt and know what it represents. There were >500 people involved in races of varying distance from 5k/10k to the 50 miler.
I much preferred the vibe / mentality of the Georgia race. I don't keep medals or race bibs (love the recycle bib idea) and only display podium swag out of the way in my pain cave / basement workout area.
" We literally ran up to cabins and found water hoses / faucets when we needed to."
@Roy Ezell this is fucking awesome!!
Also going ultra but with no Races, I will probably be on my own as in full FT.
Couple more noob questions.
When do you start run walk? And at what distance? I'm planning on 50k and then maybe 50mile. I'm not travelling so everything here is flat. The 50 k will be at 8:30ish pace. does pace or distance of the ultra have any effect on decision to take walk breaks?
I want to get a hydration vest but $160-180 Salomon without trying it on for size or a 25 mile run to check it out is holding me back. Anyone have a vest 2-5L that they want to off load (sell, lend, or give away)?
Thanks for any advice
@Robert Sabo , I've only done two 50Ks- I'm way slower than you, but I didn't plan any walk breaks for those on my pretty flat course. I walked when I needed to eat or drink or when I went up a little hill. It's only a bit longer than a marathon and I dont plan walks for those- they just happen when they happen. I have not done a 50 miler, but am now attempting my first 100K next weekend and have practiced (on the advice of this forum), taking my walk breaks starting in the first mile. My course is flat and I walk the mild inclines. Probably works out to be about 1/4 of the distance. I use those to eat and hydrate. Are you doing yours on road or trail?
As far as a vest goes, are you on the Trail and Ultrarunning Facebook page? They have a buy and sell post every week and there are always people looking to offload vests. I love my Salomon Skin Set 5- it's stretchy and has lots of pockets.