Vibram FF and Bad/Weak Feet
I have terrible feet. I would argue all of my leg/quad/glute med problems stem from the lack of shock absorbtion from flat, pronating, bunioned feet. I'm talking feet so flat that they could make a sucking sound on a wet floor. The bunions aren't great, but they don't hurt so I let them be. It's from too many years of abusing my feet in dance, in stillettos, and the wrong parents. 
What's done is done, but I think my feet have gotten even weaker the past few years. I think running in VFFs might cripple me. But I was wondering what you think about using them to strengthen the feet? Is there any possible benefit for someone like me with pathologically bad feet from using them to walk for a period each day--gradually building up? I have been indoctrinatated to:
1. Never walk barefoot lest I set off bunion pain
2. Never be without orthitics
Just wondering with people think????
Comments
Linda, I'm part of that terrible feet club too. Flat, wide, with lax joints making me knock-knee'd, and repeatedly sprained ankles that have my feet attached to my legs by mere threads. I've been able to run pain-free for 6 years since I've worn orthodics. I don't run or ride without them. However, I'm barefoot the whole time I'm home and have been since childhood. I do think that being barefoot does help strengthen the small muscles of the feet and ankles, but I highly doubt that all that strengthening will make my feet one day have arches. I'm also wary about running more than say 0.5 mile "barefeet" or in those Vibram FF given that many biomechanical imbalances with running stem from my feet.
Nonetheless, those Vibram FF shoes are intriguing...maybe for walking and short runs. I'm interested in what our PT, chiro, and podiatry peeps have to say about this...
Linda,
Very interested in this as well. I read Born to Run on Saturday and a lot of it really hit home with me. I just got back from a little 3 mile run with the Boyz:
Caveats:
Since I have zero running goals right now (ie, no timeline, volume requirements, etc) I've been thinking about picking up a pair of Nike Free (s) and Vibram FF's. Walk the dogs barefoot, experiment with short little runs, strides in the grass, stuff like that.
I also read Born to Run over weekend. Also very intrigued.
Also part of bad foot club. Kit, I agree, I may consider for short stuff, but would not go long. Also interested in what PT/chiros, podiatrists may have to say. I also have to contend with my leg length discrepancy, and have to wear a heel lift.
I'll ask my chiro/ART guy tomorrow.
Linda - I've been running in them almost exclusively for the last few months. My longest run in VFFs is 9.5 miles. The only time I took a break from them was because I did some trail running in them and because of leaves covering all the rocks, roots, acorns, etc my feet took a beating. So for a week, I did my runs in the my old running shoes.
When I started running in them, I also thought that I would only use them for short runs but quickly decided that I was having too much fun in them. From everything that I have read, and from my experience with them, I think that they will only strengthen your feet but you need to take it slow and really go at your own pace.
I liken using them to starting a strength training program. When I first started using them, my calves were destroyed by the end of a 2 mile run. It felt like I had been doing calf raises for an hour. A few weeks later, calves are stronger and I have no issues at all. Hope that helps.
Besides, the more people I can talk into wearing them, the less ridiculous I look.
alrightie, I'll bite as this has been an ongoing topic of discussion and debate not only in my clinic but in my house as well since the book was published.
As far as the theory that barefoot running will reduce injuries?? As a therapist, I'm laughing as I type that. Running has so many moving parts and training variables that there are a million reasons why you can end up with a lower extremity injury. Can one of those variables be your shoes? absolutely. but I attribute that to a lack of understanding about the differences in brands/shoe type and more specifically the lack of help in choosing what's right for you. It's not like going to a bike fitter- that doesn't exist in the running world save for a handful of shops around the country (most of which the average runner won't be allowed inside). usually it's some high school kid trying to sell the more expensive shoe.
As far as the theory that barefoot running will improve form?? The rationale behind improving technique is to minimize stress to the body and subsequently minimize injuries. This is true but the key is it should minimize not prevent 100% of them. I think the bigger issue is that most people wouldn't know good running form if it walked up and introduced itself. Sure we all know some form of land on the heel/midfoot, blah blah blah, that we heard from an article or book, but lets face it. technique work is boring right? most people skip that part and move right to the speed work stuff.
I think that's where people get carried away with the VFF's and other barefoot set ups. they force different form. And I mean that it's immediately different from the first step. without any understanding of good form and more importantly a clear and honest view of what your "old form" actually looked like...it's easy to jump to the conclusion that this different form must be better.
So my advice is this:
1) if you just want to play with them and see what the hype is all about?? go for it. they're fun and different. but go easy- it's like returning from an injury. too much too soon can equal disaster. start with 1 short 10-15 min run in them and see how you feel and monitor from there. if all is well, try again in an every other day format to allow your feet and ankle joint to adapt. sore feet and tight calves are your first warning signs to ease up. best to start on the grass or track (treadmills work as well). sure you might see some benefits, but you might just as well see those from focused run training.
2) If you are looking to improve your form from using them?? Do your homework first. Really sit down and look at your old form...study how you used to land from the front, side and back. Bike fittings tape as you ride. Running shouldn't be any different. How your foot and arch act while standing can be waaaaay different while you're moving. If there are muscle problems or joint problems, you will see them in the form of toes out, minimal push off, knock knees, etc etc. In most cases, to correct things like that requires specific focus, strengthening, and outside help. if working on your form is truly your goal...these are probably better left for later down the road.
3) if you are looking to strengthen your feet and lower legs??? remember that these shoes will primarily work the big muscles first. Over time, the stress will move to smaller muscle groups. the key with this is that you can still cheat plenty in the VFF's, so again...you will only get out of them what you put in. It's like swimming- mindless laps will only reinforce bad habits. if your form and mechanics are off...chances are you're strengthening the wrong things. if you know things are off before hand...save your $$$ and hit the gym.
4) be smart when you start using them. strongly, strongly recommend against using them in something like the OS or IM prep. they can be a shock to the system and if you know going in that you have "bad feet"...please be careful. Unlike shoes, there's no safety net with the VFF's or barefoot setups.
sorry if I rained on anyone's Born to Run parade.
One of my good friends and card-carrying members of the bad knee club has been running and playing tennis barefoot -- no Vibrams, barefoot. Knee is happier.
Question to smart peeps -- before those of us on the fence shell out for a pair of Vibrams, could I safely do something like run in an old pair of ballet flats? Or would that be dumb?
I'm not giving up my orthotics any time soon.
Thanks for info Leigh.
What are some other good exercise to strengthen muscles in foot. I know the one where you scrunch towel with toes. any others?
Comes as no suprise that I agree with Leigh, primarily because I too have done the whole born to run -> Vibram cycle. Heck so did my father LOL
I have run in them quite a bit, but stopped for two reasons. One being that I am just finishing the training cycle for a marathon, now isn't the time to try something new. Second being that they utterly destroyed my calves.
They are fun, they feel great (other than running downhill) and I don't regret trying them. However they need to be put in context
Sure if you are efficient as a runner you can easily slide into them. If you aren't (and I obviously am not) well you are going to have some problems.
The oddest part for me is that they (Vibrams) are great to wear post run. I have been slapping them on post long run for the last marathon cycle and they feel great on the feet.
Now I may go back to them post marathon and see what I can do, however I strongly suggest that you not get swept up and toss out your nice cushiony shoes
-Dave
the key is balance training. start with standing barefoot on one foot and see how long you can hold it before having to put your other foot down. 30 seconds should be a walk in the park, but for most of us...it isn't. especially as we get older. work your way up to 60 seconds and then try it closing your eyes. once at that level the next step is to start using an uneven surface (think bosu or stability disc). from here you can add different arm and leg components to up the challenge. bottom line- balancing on one foot will ensure that you have all the strength you'll ever need. it will also ensure that the muscle groups are all working together instead of the bigger ones overpowering the little ones.
another important factor is joint mobility. if there are restrictions in the ankle itself or any of the smaller joints, they can shift the load to different muscles. over time that can lead to muscle imbalances and "weakness".
Beth- one cool part about the vibrams is that in addition to the protective sole, that they seperate your toes to prevent them from getting smooshed and to really make each toe and subsequent muscle tendon "earn it". in that regard, the ballet shoes could be pretty tough on your feet out of the gates. if you've got a treadmill handy, toe socks could be fun to try it with??
I've been doing all my transition runs since August with the VFF's without too much problem. I've also started rotating in a pair of spikeless racing flats for some interval runs. Keep the regular New Balance for the longer runs. Not sure if this is "optiimal" under anyone's plan, but it seems to work for me and I enjoy it. I do a lot of the transition runs in the VFF's on trails with some rocks, gravel, tree branches, etc. Can definitely feel the foot doing a lot more work to conform to the ground, gain traction, etc. Is this important? Hard to say, but it is very noticeable.
As many have pointed out, you need to watch the calves when you start. I did one hard interval workout on the treadmill with them and really paid for it with DOMS in both calves for a week. On the flip side though, it seems to protect hips and knees by transferring stress lower in the legs. My ITB issues markedly improved as I moved to more barefoot running.
Wow, Leigh. Thanks, I'm listening, and heeding.
I'm such a biomechanical disaster, I'll start with the balance exercises, start using my yoga toes again, and kiss my orthotics every time I put them on.
I'm so jealous of people who have strong, solid, stable feet that can actually use something like VFFs to an advantage. In my next life.
Don't rule them out as a tool for later down the road. One thing I really like about them is that they force you to push off your toes and reset the foot for landing. unless you're familiar with the muscle and joint cues for that motion (hip extension, knee extension, ankle flexion and big toe dorsiflexion to be more specific), it's easy to think you're actually doing it when you are not. I'm certainly guilty of thinking I have good form and then being shocked at what I see with pictures etc. to get faster you have two main ways to go about it- faster cadence (which shortens your stride and decreases that push off) or bigger push off. I think where these will really help people is working on that push off. it's hard on the body and that's why everyone fries their calves as they are effectively doing double duty to not only cushion your landing but propelling you forward.
I guess my big point with my earlier post is this- while the book and brochures would have you believe that it's as simple as putting them on...there's a lot more involved in the process. hope that makes sense.
I will chime in with my 2cents.
I used to have a very flat left arch. I have used flexible orthotics and very rigid versions made by a podiatrist. My buddy, the podiatrist, have argued for hours over supports, rigid, flexible, exercises, adjusting, etc.
IMO: I think orthotics are great for supporting the bones and tissues BUT if they are rigid they dis-able the muscles from being as active as they should be and therefore you become dependent on the orthotic. I like to stage people depending on their needs with regards to rehab.
Support, flexibility and activation/exercise.
If someone has "shot/flat" feet then I like to put them in a barefoot science orthotic during the day and alternate flexible orthotics (Footlevelers) and/rigid orthotics during running. Rigid if they have very weak feet and as the foot gets more functional graduate them to flexible orthotics. The Barefoot science orthotic helped rehab my weak arch along with using Nike Free 5.0's for all my running. My foot wasn't bad enough to warrant needing an flexible or rigid ortho during running.
I have patients exercise the archs with using a towel on a slick floor and they scrunch the towel up with their toes. Wear Nike Free 3.0-5.0s or Vibram Five Fingers around the house. Work the adhesions out of the plantar flexors with a fresh tennis ball of golf ball by rolling the ball under the arch and concentrating on sore spots.
I do all of my runs now in Nike 3.0's and have the Vibrams on order. I used to be a motion controlled Brooks runner with frequent knee and arch pain with Superfeet also in the shoe. Now I have none of those issues and weigh about the same as a variable control issue.
Sorry for the rambling but I've written this in between patients as time permits. Scattered.
Vince
Funny how "born to run" has raised so many running questions throughout the tri/running community. Kind of turns conventional wisdom on its head.
Barefoot Ted (from the book) can be found here....www.barefootted.com. Check it out.
One thing for sure....try anything that has to do with running in moderation. First buyers of Newtons find out quickly that "running" into the shoes means gradually. Go long first with Newtons and muscles in your calves will make you wish you were never born.
Tried em...did not like em. Over last two years have concentrated on running into more neutral shoes, but do run barefoot occassionally for short distances. Have to admit that finishing a long run with as little as 1/2 mile barefoot really loosens up the legs.
Friend is a neurosurgeon and he has a "stand up MRI" machine.....Over a bottle of scotch with some tri buddies we looked at our foot strikes and saw some interesting things. The bones in the feet really are made to be used in totality. Not just off your toes or midfoot or heel striking, but in totality. Anything less invites atrophy in parts and too much in others.
Not being an MD and having had a couple scotchs our results can be viewed as suspect!
Leigh, thank you so much for all your input on this subject matter. I totally agree that it's a process that needs to be taken on gradually and carefully---just like anything that involves repetitive, high impact motion. I'm gonna ask Santa for a pair of those VFF's just to try walking around outside in.
Ordering online might be cheaper, as usual, but might not provide the correct size.
Yup. If you can't get to a store with the thing-a-ma-bob (I think that's the technical term), then go to the VFF website for the sizing chart. They'll have you actually measure your foot, and the sizes are different if you're ordering the Classic or Sprint versus the KSO or Flow.
Mike
I've been running in mine on and off for about a month. I'll share my thoughts as well once I have a little more time in them.
Neither VFFs nor Newtons nor orthotics nor any measure of cushioned stabilized or enhanced shoes will make up for bad bio mechanics.
For me, the turning point was a really bad marathon I ran. I determined not to do that again and took the next two months to "learn" the Pose method of running. Don't care if it's Pose, Chi, Evolution or whatever, my opinion as a non phys therapist or doctor is that through years of repetition our legs/feet/knees/ankles are used to running a certain way and that can lead to a lot of problems because of the repetitive and high impact stress of the "normal" running gait. By going to a more forefoot approach, coupled with high turnover and a more pronounced forward lean (kinda) we take much of the stress off our knees. True, it merely redistributes the landing stresses, but I can say this: after Dec 2007 marathon, with no incredible increase in volume etc, every single run distance PR I have has been shattered. My Navy 1.5 mile PRT run (best ever in my life) 5k, 10k, 1/2 mary and open mary times all have been dramatically different. Thanks to my inner data geek, I can show that training runs PRE Pose method (at the same pace) had a higher HR than post Pose method of running. All I can conclude is that (for me) Pose running (read forefoot, high turnover short "stride") have made me more efficient. ZERO injuries. For the bulk of my IMFL training, I ran in nothing but cross country flats (per Pose recommended guidance) but I did use my VFFs for most of my brick runs. I am used to a lot more stress on my calves though, and 6 miles in VFFs is absolutely no biggie. And VFFs really "force" good forefoot running form. To do otherwise is just too painful!
In short, I don't believe that there is a magic bullet for shoes bikes or anything else. However, if you are trying to move towards a running style that has been demonstrated to reduce knee stress and prevent injuries, I might recommend laying off the treadmill for a month or two in this off season and getting cozy with many of the drills that will get you going on Pose (or Chi, Evolution whatever). Well worth the time investment.
For me:
-1:00 in my 1.5 mile Navy run
-1:15 in my 5k time
-3:xx in my 10k time (I disremember)
-10:xx in my 1/2 marathon time
-32:xx in my marathon time
I am currently ramping up for a spring marathon and plan on putting as many miles as I can in VFFs. Probably won't run the race in them due to not wanting to take a chance on a cut foot or something. But can easily do 6 in VFFs and no reason to think I can't go farther. Speed is more tricky (for me) in VFFs; will work on that too!
FWIW...
I'd like to add my observations also. After IMWI09 I've only run twice in shoes(NB very light racing flats for 2 5miles races) with the other 212 miles in VFFs. After 11 weeks averaging >20mi/wk in VFFs I've had absolutely no issues with injuries, ankle, knee, IT, hip or back problems. In fact, I've ran more comfortably at a faster pace with lower heart rate than any time this year. My longest run in VFFs at 10 miles felt fine.
As others have mentioned, it forces me to run gently with high cadence. That greatly reduces my foot impact and eliminates any significant heel impact. Since starting the Nov OS I've cut my miles back to 15 miles/wk average but with a lot more Z4 miles.
My most interesting recent data was from our 5 mi Turkey Trot on Thanksgiving last week. I compared my performances of 08 and 09 and was surprised to see an almost identical pace despite doing no real speed work in prep this year. My average HR was 2 points lower at the same pace with my average run cadence rising from 87 to 93.
I guess those motion control shoes will just gather dust unless I turn them into everyday sneaks!
John
Thanks everyone for sharing their experiences. I think where we are with this is:
I'm probably going to pick up a new pair of my normal shoes, a pair of Frees, and a pair of FF and just experiment with what works, see how I react, etc. I have the luxury of no timeline or training requirements.
Rich,
perfect synopsis. Gradual, measured changes are important. I ran my last open marathon as a 6' clydesdale in Nike Frees
BUT I worked into them. I have not run a step in shoes other Nike 5.0 and 3.0's (and a pair of Newtons) now in 3 years other than a downhill relay where I knew I would be pounding my heels.
Vince
Very interested in the results..
I have been working on changing my stride from heel striking to forefoot since November. My distances have increased up to 8k using water shoes. On the weekend I was invited to go on a run up in the mountains with some Boston qualifiers and ultra marathoners. What I though was a 8 k run turned into 16 km on gravels roads with some short trail running through the snow. In my water shoes I was able to keep up. On the downhills I was able to break away from the pack by increasing cadence and maintaining a forward lean.
I was extremely pleased to see my speed return after months of conditioning my calves and feet and focusing on technique.
Tonight I received my vibrum KSO Treks in the mail and can not wait to try them out.
I'll be re-learning how to run from scratch this year. Hopefully I'll be a better student this time around and will fix the real issues.
Perfect answer Nemo. They will certainly help with more cues and sensations while running, but there's still a LOT of stuff to think about aside from slapping them on.
Well I went for a 2.5k run today in my new KSO Treks.
They are not water proof and with slush on the path my toes were wet and cold. I would say the Treks are more beefy then my water shoes. The soles are stiffer with an aggressive tread.
I will use them for gravel roads and trail running in dry conditions. My main shoes will remain Walmart 10$ water shoes.
The second half of the 5 k run turned into a slow walk as my running partner was suffering from a dislocated hip.
Pain is a great motivator and is the main reason I have made the decision to relearn running literally from the ground up. When weather permits I will progress to barefoot running. Then there will be nothing to mask bad technique and poor conditioning. For now running in socks on the treadmill will have to do.
Nemo good luck with your recover.