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High Speed Wobble - Causes & Cures

 As many of you may know, a couple of weeks ago I toppled off my bike at high speed and ended up in the hospital with a fractured hip socket (acetabular).

I was entered in an event called Death Ride near Lake Tahoe California and had even got credit for finishing.  The 15,000 feet of climbing and 5 mountain passes took me just over 8 hours.  On the way down the last peak, heading toward town for post race activities, my front wheel started to wobble uncontrollably for about 10 seconds, causing me to go flying over the handle bars.

I'm home happy and healing very well and trying to figure out what caused the high speed wobble and what I would do differently next time in the 10 seconds I had to come up with a solution.

It seems the more I read about it, the more complicated it appears.

There are a couple of articles here and here

I was thinking it may be a mechanical issue, but many of the articles appear to rule out that cause.  My bike is about 5 years old, mostly original parts, with the exception of handle bars, pedals, saddle and rear wheel.  It's a Cervelo soloist (S1) aluminum frame, known for it's great handling. I was thinking of taking it to the LBS and having the front wheel replaced and having the forks and other front end components looked at and possibly replaced.  Now I'm not so sure.

As to bike handling, I ride quite a few hills, live next to a 3,000 foot mountain and am comfortable climbing and descending.  I typically hold down hill speeds below 35 mph as I'm kind of a chicken past this speed and I believe age and kids have dampened my need for adrenaline rushes.  I always descend with hands in the drops and fingers close to or on the brakes.  I have gone in excess of 45 mph at times, but very rarely and only on very clear roads with great visibility and no traffic.

On this particular day, I had already descended over 14,000 feet very comfortably.  When the wobble started I was at about 35 mph going straight down a very long hill. I applied brakes quite hard.  It didn't help so I let go of the breaks and put my knees to the top tube to try and dampen the vibrations.  No luck either. I kept my knees tight and then started feathering the brakes without success.  By the time my 10 seconds were up, I was probably going over 40 mph.

So my long winded approach to the question; has anyone ever had this happen to them and did you manage to correct the wobble before crashing?  If so, what did you do?  Any input as to causes?  Is this a rider error or can the bike/components be at the heart of the issue.

Any and all thoughts gladly accepted!

Tom

Comments

  • Tom - glad to hear you're doing well.  I have actually thought about this a little recently.  We get alot of front end shimmying around here descending down mountain roads.  It is most prevalent when the sides of the road are tree lined, there is a cross wind and you have any sort of deep rim.  Whenever we hit an open spot in the trees the wind blows the front end all over the place.  I also have thought it may be caused by wheel balancing (such as a car wheel with a weight on the rim).  Is it possible to be going so fast that the wheel gets out of balance and starts to shimmy?  I mostly do what you did - sit up and feather the brakes until it comes under control.  Other times I just hang on tight and get low but it's mostly my comfort level on that day.  Just a couple thoughts; interested to hear what others have to say also.

  • I used to experience this a fair amount,  back when I wanted to see how fast I could go. We've got several really long descents, like from 5500-6500 feet down to near sea level. I heard a lot of explanations for the wobbles, and I read those links, but I don't think anybody really knows what's causing it. I bet it is some sort of harmonic phenomenon, in the sense of several different recurrent vibrations adding to each other. Seeing your post made me realise I don't get this anymore, and I think there are several reasons, mostly things which made me go slower down long hills. If I want to go 45+ mph, I'll do it on a short 300' hill, one where I know the run out and traffic patterns. Anything longer, I stay under 35 mph d/t: (1) being in several races - e.g., IM Calif 2001 - where guys died going downhill; (2) riding down mountains with my wife on a tandem - if I want to stay married, we go slower, and got a disc brake for her; (3) Mountain biking in Xterras, which showed me just how bad people can mash themselves up by not paying attention on downhills; (4) just getting older, and worried about the strength of my bones, and how long it might take to heal; (5) doing more riding on my TT bike - even mountain descents - which makes it real obvious when instability is starting. And maybe, I've got a better sense of fore/aft body stability, coupled with the benefits of keeping one's center low when going fast downhill. SItting up on the hoods will slow me down, but also make me more unstable.

    Advice for the future? None that will help you avoid the problem or go faster. Anything over 20 mph becomes increasingly dangerous down an endless hill, and really, we're not getting paid for this, so why risk anything?

  • Oh Tom, I know that terrible feeling. I used to be a fearless descender until I developed a shimmy going down Marsh Hill at Timberman; scared the living sh*t out of me, for years. As you know all too well, at those speeds and grades when you fall off you don't just tumble to a stop; quick unconsciousness is the only mercy.



    I, like you, tried to read up on the subject, only to be stymied by conflicting "expert" opinion. Here's what's worked for me: clamping the top tube with my knees, sliding back to unweight the front end, doing the seemingly impossible: relaxing i.e. not trying to control the thing through muscular effort.



    I finally conquered the downhill dragon at the race we met at: IM CdA 2009. I was able to roll a few of those downhills at better than 46mph.



    In the randoneurring world many bikes have been made better by switching to needle bearing headsets, despite the naysayers.



    I hope your healing is swift and complete, both physically and emotionally.

  • Tom, I have been were you were descending a big grade flying like the wind and bang out of nowhere you get a vibration from the front that takes over the whole bike. This happened to me twice on an assault on Mt Mitchell century ride in NC. 

    This happened to me over 20 years ago riding a steal frame Raleigh International on aluminum race rims and Tubies. For my two events on that ride the vibrations appeared in a high speed decent > 40mph. These are speeds I did not normally ht in my training rides.   The vibration started in the front wheel and soon the whole bike was vibrating. I hit the brakes but as you saw had minimal impact. I keep my weigh back on the saddle an un clipped both feet and went for the side of the road out of the 50 person pack I was in. – both water bottles had been tossed by now from the vibration. I was luck in that when this happened the grade started to flatten and I hit some gravel and got slowed down stopped. I stopped, checked by britches and climbed bake on and hammered on to catch the pack – I was Lucky!!!

    What is the cause of these high speed vibrations? My engineering based opinion is 1) it is not user error generated. 2) Harmonic vibration is the likely the cause. The rotating front wheel is natively out of balance due to the valve stem. 99% of the riders don’t add weight on the other side of the rim to balance for this weigh imbalance. Think what we do to our car wheels. 

    Ok so now you have a rotating system with a native unbalance to it. You mount that in a front fork on a bike which is a long thin structure set to hold the wheel.   In my view all mechanical stems like this have a situation when then can vibrate at a harmonic frequency. This is where heavy vibration occurs with minimal input of energy. Think of a tuning fork – when you hit it, it rings at its harmonic frequency , and rings for quite a while. My view is you and I hit that harmonic frequency on our down hills – it takes just the right speed to set it off then bang it is there. This is not something that 2 mph slower is 40 % less vibration. At that speed it doesn’t happen. BUT once it is started it can continue to resonate through a surprising change in speed – so slowing down 10-20 % did not stop it.

    Summary Tom this was not operator error in my view. The solution is to review the overall trueness and balance of your front wheel. The more balanced you can make it in all respects the higher the speed where a harmonic will occurs and also the less energy that the harmonic will demonstrate.

    I have experienced the power of what energy is present when a rotating mass goes though a harmonic frequency in other situations than on a bike. My first job out of collage was in the design and manufacture of power plant size turbines and generators. These large rotating machines spin at 3600 revolutions per minute. They would go through a painstaking process to balance these machines in 3 axis. Once they were within specified balance specifications they would be spun up to operational speed. Even with a balanced machine you could feel it got through its harmonics over a foot ball field away in the building. 

    Matt
  • Have your LBS check the cones on the wheels.
  • I've had that happen a few times, also scared the poop outta me.

    Once on my road bike, going downhill about 40mph, the front wheel was jumping left-to-right about six inches. The very next day on my tri-bike down a different hill, same thing with the front wheel. And, most recently, at Toc 2010. The rider behind me was convinced I was going down.

    The harder you brake, the worse it seems to get. The knees on the top tube helped a little, but not a whole lot when 200lbs (me) + gravity were working against it. Relaxing is easier said than done for sure.

    I understand the theory of harmonic vibrations, but to have them on two different bikes, under similar situations, kinda leads me to believe it's also user (me) error.

    Knowing that it scared the crap outta me, has severely limited my descending speed - and confidence - especially on crappy road surfaces and blind corners. Scary stuff.
  • I had horrible front wheel shimmy the Friday before Lake Placid. I had done two loops of the course during the EN camp 6 weeks before (including with my deep SRAM front wheel--equivalent to a Zipp 808), but I wanted to try it before the race with the deep front wheel and the wheelcover in back. My wife drove me out to the start of the downhill and followed behind. At about 42 mph, my front wheel wobbled totally out of control. I was quite certain I was going to crash. Somehow, I eventually slowed down without incident and finished the descent riding the brakes at 35. (Without braking, I'd probably hit about 48-50.)

    I freaked out, especially since the forecast was for winds on race day. The wobble hadn't happened without the wheel cover during camp. I read the Sheldon Brown article linked to above. I used my regular front wheel and took off the wheel cover. I also had the race mechanic check out my headset at bike check-in. (Not a minor matter for those who know Felt Bayonet forks--most people can't adjust them.) Nevertheless, during the race, I still felt the wobble, and I clamped the top tube between my knees and kept the weight on the pedals instead of the saddle. That kept everything under control. I haven't been back on the tri bike since the race--I've switched to my road bike to get ready for Savageman.
  • I don't think I've ever had this on a bike that I can remember, but definitely on a skateboard. I wonder about the low center of gravity thing. I always assumed that when racers, especially great descenders like Paolo Salvodelli, Sammy Sanchez, and Sean Kelly, got down on their top tubes it was to be more aero. Is it actually because they are trying to lower their center of gravity? It looks super dangerous, but I remember the one time I was over 50 mph (at age 21) very vividly, and the bike felt very stable which I attributed to the gyroscope effect of having the wheels spinning so fast. Wish I had some advice. I guess I'll have to figure out how to get good at going fast since I'm signed up for Lake Placid next year!
  • I had the same terrifying thing happen to me on Ride the Rockies a few years ago. I love to downhill, and I'm usually pretty fast. However, on some of the long mountain descents, I started to feel uncontrollable shimmying. I ended up talking to the Mavic support guys who work at RTR. They suggested that my shimmy was caused by using a 404 for my back wheel. Even though I was using a narrow rim on the front, they argued that winds hitting the back wheel were causing the shimmy to start. They lent me some Ksyriums, and I didn't have any more problems.
  • This maybe very simplistic but I remember during the Northeast century ride last year, Mike had a wobble and it turned out to be his front wheel wasn't tightened sufficiently. I wonder if there is something going on with your skewer or the springs where they feel secure when you place the wheel on, but they actually loosen for some reason once you start riding
  • Thank you everyone for your thoughts.

    I've had my bike blown around by cross winds before, and this is much, much worse.

    @Matt, interested to know how you would go about adding weight to balance out the valve stem issue. Would stem length make a difference? I've been buying longer stems to accommodate my various wheels. Maybe I should stick with shorter ones where I can.

    @Colleen. Interesting thoughts on the mix of wheels. My PT on the back is built into a DT Swiss 1.2. Not as deep as a 404 I don't think, but definitely deeper than my front "work" wheel.

    I'll have a bunch of the bike parts looked at from cones, skewer, springs and other items. I'll have the trueness and balance looked at. It may be a simple fix.
  • Tom, I would definitely look into the mechanical solutions first: have the frame, wheels, headset, etc looked at.

  • Tom – As all have pointed to above. The mechanical system that went into the harmonic condition includes the wheel, tire, Hub (cones), forks head set, frame alignment front to back …. All of the elements interact with each other and will vibrate at some harmonic frequency if conditions are right. There may not be one single item that is the culprit. As Rich said have the mechanical system gone over top to bottom.

    On wheel balancing – focus primarily on the trueness of the wheel – sided to side and roundness. The valve stem weight issue I pointed to was mainly to say that the rotation system we all ride is natively unbalanced. If the other elements in your system are solid , I would not worry about the valve stem. On metal rims the joint where the rim connects to its self is often a heavier point than the valve stem. If you want to balance these weight issues out, I have seen a couple of approaches used. One is to use small wraps of lead soldier added to the spokes. Another is sand added to epoxy and this pasted on the rim to add weight to the light side. This is often done on carbon rims.

    Matt
  • The wobble is usually a mechanical issue. Sometimes this is a bike issue, sometimes it is just the natural forces at work on the bike. It can be a combination of aerodynamics, wheel balance, steerer alignment, frame alignment, road surface, weight distribution, etc... At one point or another everyone runs into this issue. On my road bike I can have issues once I get above 45 miles an hour on a windy day. On our tandem it seems to develop above 60 miles an hour.

    As Rich mentioned, first have the bike looked at to make sure there are no structural issues. If everything checks out, there are a number of things that you can do to lessen the impact. You already mentioned clamping your knees to the top tube. A couple of other things to try if you begin to notice the front end of the bike vibrating.
    - Start peddling again. By maintaining a constant cadance on the bike you can counteract some of the issue with the front end. You just need to slow peddle soemto pick up the gyroscopic effect.
    - Come out of the drops and move your hands to the brake hoods. Being in the drops forces your arms to be more rigid which transmits the vibration into your upper body and just reinforces the vibration and results in instability. This is one of the issues with a Tri bike. The brake hoods are a little farther forward and force your arms into this stiff position. The important thing is to relax your arms and upper body so that they absorb the vibration and dampen the effect.
    - Adjust your position on the saddle. Sometimes you may have to move forward on the saddle, or back on the saddle. See what will help, For me I tend to move back off the saddle. I know others that feel more comfortable moving forward.

    If you feel like you are getting out of control and freaked out, the first thing to do is sit up. This is the bike equivalent of pulling the parashoot. It will help to either slow you down, or slow down how quickly you are accellerating. You can also rotate your knees out to increase the surface area. Think of this as going anti-aero.
    Start applying the back brake. Don't slam it, just slowly apply it. If you are using cork brake pads with a carbon rim this probably won't help much. Then you can start to feather the front brakes to further retard your speed. Again, do not slam on the fron brakes or use them to heavily. There is very little weight on the front wheel and they will lock up easily causing you to flip over or lose control of the front end.

    A couple of important things to keep in mind. DON'T PANIC. The bike wants to stay up as much as you do. A properly adjusted bike will naturally remain upright. Keep your upper body loose, it is your shock absorber. If you tense up your arms, the front end of the bike will become much harder to control.
  • " relax your arms and upper body so that they absorb the vibration and dampen the effect. "

    Keeping this in mind has made a world of difference for me when cornering and descending. If you lock up your ams it extends the vibration. Lightening up in that situation is easier said than done but that and pinching down low onto the top tube has saved me.
  • my 2 cents, keep the change. In addition to above ideas re front wheel alignment and "solidity" of your front end of your bike, I also think being high up on the bike doesn't help. I have had a similar feeling on my road bike made tri bike, where I had a lot of weight on the front. Once I switched to riding it in a road set up, never had them again. Also, part of me wonders where you were at physically at the end of 120+ miles; was your body capable of executing a save given fatigue, etc. So glad to have you back....

    P
  • Thanks everyone for the insightful information. Bringing my bike into the LBS next week.

    @John and others, thanks for the ride position advice. Definitely something I'd like to practice. Maybe someone can invent a crash simulator, I know I'd pay for that now!
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