Starting Team EN - experiencing a lot of pain
Hey everyone, I joined Team EN about four weeks ago. I'm on the intermediate training plan for IM AZ (20 weeks). I'm currently doing week 6, and I started out in week 3 with the team.
I was doing long haul training before, low intensity with maybe 2-3 (what I thought was) high intensity workouts during the week. Well, I did the tests to establish my zones in week 4 and I've been following those in week 5/6. I don't know if it's a good/bad thing, but my zones came out pretty hard. For example, my zone 5 running heart rate at 5:56 pace was 165. That means that these zone 4 1/2 mile and mile repeats are at low 6 pace, and my heart rate barely gets above 160. The bike too came out similar. High wattage at lower heart rates (271 was my FTP at a 160 bpm or so - however, this was trainer watts, and I'm finding slightly different wattage - lower - out on the roads). Last Sunday's bike ride was just a challenge to finish let alone stay in zone 2.
What I've found is that doing high intensity workout day after day is getting pretty hard. I work a lot, probably 9-10 hours a day and constantly on email (I work at a global company, so someone is always working and asking questions), and these workouts combined with work stress are starting to take its toll. I've been following everything to the letter of the workout (which I know may not be a good thing, but we're all a little type A if we're doing ironmans as a hobby, right), even programming the exact zones / intervals into my garmin and scheduling all the workouts for the week in my Garmin on Sunday nights - I simply follow the beeps of the watch on my zones.
Last night's swim after run took a serious toll. My hour run ended up being about 8.5 miles, and then doing a bunch of 100M descends on swimming (my t-pace came out at 1:35 per 100/M based on the 1000M test) pretty much knocked me out last night and today. And now the infamous intervals await on the bike when I return home this evening...
So my question is: how did everyone adapt? How do you get used to this constant stream of high intensity? Should I be going easier on everything that isn't an interval? I'm concerned about taking it down a notch or even taking a day off because I don't want to "not be prepared" come Nov 21st (assuming there is water). I know everyone here probably went through something similar, so any advice or posts you can point me to would be extremely helpful!
Thanks everyone!
Adam
Comments
I personally joined during the OS and that gave me abotu 20 weeks to "adjust" to the EN workouts. It is tough for sure and takes a while for your body to be re-programed to what hard work really is. The first 3-4 weeks was definitely eye openning for me, but after that I saw some of my best fitness gains ever during the first 8-12 weeks I was following ENs plans.
I few things that come to mind:
- DO NOT follow the plan into a brick wall. If you are stressed, exhausted, etc, take a day off or dial a workout down. If you burn yourself out you will get no where.
- I would try to test in as close to your training and racing conditions as possible. In otherwords if you are going to be outside riding at 7 PM most of the time, do your FTP test outside in the aero bars at 7 PM on day. Same thing with running. Indoor to Outdoor performances vary greatly for some folks, so until you have some experience with the EN plan, I would not try to compare the two.
- If you tested to a certain vdot/ftp you have earned it and you will be able to do the workouts at that level at some point. It may take a few weeks though and extreme conditions will definitely affect your ability to hit the target paces/zones. If it was 70 and dry for your test, you will likely not be able to hit the same zones when it is 90 and humid.
I have been doing the EN thing since the start and before that I did one of the Cruicible plans. I may have done one or two weeks where I hit every set in a week as scheduled. My family, work, weather, fitness health or something else gets in the way. Don't stress on it.....
To paraphrase something Rich once said.....to do 80% of a good plan is better then to do 100% of a bad plan.....If you need a day off or can't hit your paces its ok....you may need to rest
How did everyone adapt?
If you are new to training the EN way there is definitely a learning curve for you body. In my first year of training with the team i went through much of what you are describing. Make no mistake, even though we arent logging endless hours of training you are doing a lot of work and you will feel it. If you can still hold you pace and watts for the prescribed workouts i would say you are doing fine. Your perception of hard will be completely recalibrated after your first season with EN. In training for IMLP in my second year with EN my body has definitely adjusted and hitting the paces although not easy has become much more tolerable
Should I be going easier on everything thta isnt an interval?
The advice i have received from everyone over the years is to back down as much as you need to to hit your target pace or watts. If you can hit your target pace by recovering at Z1 then carry on. If you are having difficulty hitting your next interval then back down a little more.
If you are cumulatively noticing that you arent able to hit your pace or watts then it may be time to make some adjustments. The WIKI has a article about which workouts are priorities and which ones can be cut back on if you need to recover a little. Taking some recovery is not a bad thing, coach P is always reminding us that no one workout is going to make or break you race. I acutually followed that advice this year and adjusted my schedule according with guidance from the WIKI.
Hope this helps, im sure others will chime in soon enough.
This is also strange, but when I've taken days off, I found I had trouble sleeping because I didn't take the hour or two or three to wear myself out. It's like the working out has become part of my sleeping patterns. Very weird. Don't know if others experienced that.
First off, are you just tired or in pain, big difference there. We certainly don't want pain.
As Matt said, you tested yourself so you earned those results and should be able to hold these workouts. Wasn't there some question about your FTP result? How did you test it? There are differences between inside and outside watts as well as watts sitting up and others in the aerobars. So how did you test your FTP because it took me many weeks to be able to hold those watts I tested sitting up on trainer to translate to outside. For the run, it looks like you have a Vdot in the mid to upper 50s? I am just guessing there. So what was your 5K time? Any problems with that? I think you need to make sure you tested yourself correctly if you are having big problems.
Yes you should be going easy on the rest periods between intervals. the workouts were designed to be hard to get the best return on your time. It may take a little time for you to adjust to them but you will.
And certainly take a day off if needed. Remember this is supposed to be fun. Just don't miss one of the really big workouts. Your key workouts are your Long Run and the Long Bike on the weekend. If you felt like you had to skip a run after a swim I don't think that would be the end of the world.
Adam, Welcome! I don't have too much to add that hasn't been said already. I just wanted to comment that if you are following a power plan then I wouldn't pay too much attention to HR for establishing efforts. HR is good feedback as to how your body is reacting to the work but the focus should be on watts.
That being said, I found that getting proper rest and recovery between workouts (hydrating aggressively, eating clean, feet up and/or in compression socks, getting enough sleep) really helped. Also, when you get to a workout and think,"There's no stinking way I'm going to hit those intervals!", just warm up well and you'll really surprise yourself.
Welcome to the team, Adam! Hope that helps.
a few comments about my tests
Vdot: 5k time was 18:24. Did this about 7AM on a track and using my Garmin. It was painful, but running is definitely my strength, so the results were realistic. I've always had trouble getting my heart rate beyond 170 - seems to only happen in last few miles of a marathon. I don't have trouble getting to 5k pace or even faster. Only challenge has been doing this on the Tuesday run, then getting into my zone 2 and zone 3 for decent periods on the Thursday run (because those paces are in the mid 6 minutes, and it's tough after the hard bike on Wednesday). To be honest, the zone 2 of the bricks on the way back have also been pretty brutal.
Ftp: definitely a weak test relative to an ideal condition. I used a trainer (road machine) and iBike. FTP watts were 271 (276 first 20 minutes, 266 second 20). about half of first interval was in aero, and i could barely stay in aero in second 20 (maybe 5 minutes). my next test, I'll sit in aero the entire time to see what watts it produces. my wattage outside when I'm pushing it (comparable heart rates on the bike) is closer to 230-250. The only reason I'm using heart rate there as a gauge is because I have so much trouble sustaining the 200-220 Z2 wattage for a few hours on those Sunday rides. I think my ftp outdoors is much lower, and even lower if factoring in aero most of that time.
The strange thing about the aero position is that I've been so sore from all of these workouts that my hip flexors don't seem to be loose enough to hold it for too long. anyone else experience this as they started EN?
And from everyone else's feedback, I know a few things I definitely need to do more of: compression, more hydration, move to lower levels of zone in intervals, particularly zone 1 when i'm chilling (i tend to do 1.8-1.9, not 1.2-1.5), and read more in the wiki.
Big issue is sleep. With trying to maintain family life, work, etc..., it's hard finding time for more than 7.5 hours of sleep. Do most people aim for more than that during Ironman training?
@ralph - love this quote too "80% of a good plan is better then to do 100% of a bad plan" - they know their stuff here, huh?
Adam- welcome, and now you know the dirty little (not-so) secret about EN. Sure, it's only a 4 hour ride, but it's a freakin HARD 4 hours!!!
Quick question- you say you think your FTP is lower outside than inside. I find that interesting because most of us find exactly the opposit. Are you testing on the same bike indoors and outdoors? Ultimately Matt is right- it's best to test on the equipment and in the environment where you are going to do the majority of your training. So keep that part in mind.
Finally- don't be afraid to drop down to the "Beginner" plan for just a few weeks. I really wish we'd rename the plans because "Beginner" makes folks shy away from it as if it were an "easy" plan (it might as well be called the "pink bunny and fluffy kittens" plan for all the avoidance it gets). This is my 3rd year with EN, and because I know my body, and I know what I need to do to take care of myself to get to IMWI healthy enough to race, I know that the Beginner plan is more than enough. Anyway- if you are new to EN, a few weeks really early in the season (which is were you are now) doing the Beginner plan might help you adjust a little easier. You can always switch to the Intermediate plan once you feel like you are recovering and absorbing all the work well. Bottom line, if you aren't able to recover- you aren't gonna get any benefit from the plans- no matter which one you are doing.
The reason I'm on intermediate is because of my half IM time I believe - 5:25 (they asked for times to see what to put us on). But now I see what you're saying. I'll be honest too that I sometimes don't believe enough in my own abilities. Like yes, right now, I'm getting my ass handed to me with these workouts. I'm tired. But somehow, when the workout comes, I turn it into a different notch and I'm able to pull it off. Then I feel like shit after and the next day. Workout comes, and I tear it up. So I don't know if I also just need to believe in myself more, that I can push it, and keep up that mental game beyond my workout. Sounds a little lame, but until I did Team EN, I had no idea my 5k would be under 20 minutes. I never ran a specific 5k in my life before (for a time) - just marathons. When i set out to do the 5k, i thought, it would be pretty cool to break 20. Next thing I know, i held it under 6 minute pace. Same thing with the bike. I like that these plans do force me to kick it up a notch
I guess I'll see how the rest of this week unfolds and if I can't handle the Sunday ride again, I think i will drop it back to beginner for the one week to get me to the testing week. But anything else I've mentioned here about my tests or this mental stuff would make you see/say anything different?
Sounds like you are right on track and re-training you mind and body on what the hard work and speed are. It's impressive that you are continuing to hit the workouts. I bet your brain was holding back much more than your fitness prior to joining EN.
If you need to take an easy day here and there definietly do it. Otherwise, keep up the good work and I bet you see a nice break through this year.
Now you probably understand why we say the ironman bike is your easiest ride of the year
That being said, ultimately in EN you have all these resources to be the best self-coached athlete you can be. But don't ever forget that you're self-coached; RnP develop awesome plans, but you have to match them with your life. If you are running into difficulty, be smart and switch it up, whether taking more rest, moving around your plan, or changing plans. You want to get to your IM in the best condition you can, and training yourself into the wall will not do that. If you check out the screenshots in the Wiki, you'll notice that you are doing hard hard work in all the levels of plans, there's just little tweaks that make them different. I think you'll still be well-prepared no matter what plan you do.
Agreed- that right there is pretty telling. Sounds like you recover fine and you are hitting the workouts. This is just a new definition of "work" you need to wrap your head around. Go get em tiger!
Hi there Adam,
I am new to EN as well, but I noticed something in your comments about the Tuesday run being 8 miles.
I am not sure we are on the same plan, but even though you are WAY faster than me, 8 miles seems pretty far?
Most of the workouts are 15 min WU, intervals and 5 min cool down. I think the goal is to hit the intervals, not to hit 60 minutes.
Most of the time the intervals add up to 2-3 miles so far.
How fast are you running during the rest? How far are you running the during your cool down.
Since you are feeling fatigue, I would think that this is where you can "rest" a little. I know that I am happy to hit the interval speeds, but I will often walk part of the rest interval and then warm back up again to get ready for the next after 30-60 seconds of walking. It may be worth it to do the same.
Also, in respect to the bike, I think that if you are training on the same roads, you can use the numbers to get a consistent idea of what your FTP and zones should be even with stops. If you are using the ibike (I am as well) you can use the user defined interval mode to set the training schedule and then pause it at a light if necessary. This should help eliminate some of the ups and downs.
As I said, I am new, but I think this makes sense.
Good luck!!
Also, note that there is an adaptation period where just getting up to speed is critical. IF you need more rest, take it. Your key sessions are sat/sun bikes, thurs long run, brick, then tempo run -- in that order. Swims don't matter in our world, and your job as a SCA (Self Coached Athlete) is to make sure you are ready to make those sessions. So if you had to drop an interval workout during the week (At first) to get in a good weekend, totally worth it!
Love that you are bringing the hard work and defining new fast...you'll never look back!
P
@nemo @matt I think you're both right. It's not necessarily pain, just mental anguish
@jennifer - i think i will do this on my next test. I sat in Aero on my bike this week for my intervals, and noticed my watts were much less than what I tested - around 230-240, not 271. This is more in line with what I'm seeing on the road on the flats, and so I think I'll just test myself out there, in aero next time! thanks for the advice.
@pat i hope this "adjustment period" is not going to take me to the ironman
No doubt, training "the EN Way" require a period of adjustment, much of it mental. We are 100% focused on getting as much work, or return, on every training minute investment. Part of the process of absorbing and adjusting to this work ethic is to stepping back to look at how you used to train. You will likely very quickly realize how much of what you used to do, in the end, wasn't really all that. You'll begin to see the opportunity cost of excessively long periods of time riding or running easy vs just getting the work done.
Many of athletes, and this is why we are so focused on getting people on board in the OutSeason, make this adjustment in the OutSeason: they are likely training solo indoors, or with very few to no training partners. Instead they interact with the new and veteran EN members. We pat you on head, tell you it's gonna be fine, then tell you to suck it up and get back to work
. You adopt this work ethic over several months until it becomes completely natural...and then you drop in back in with your training partners in March and April and wonder WTF was I doing with my time for so long? We've seen this hundreds of times.
You're making these adjustments in the middle of your season so things are quite different. When I'm feeling the pain, the stuff I put in my head is:
NUTRITION - HYDRATION - REST - NUTRITION - HYDRATION - SLEEP !!!!!
You're a fit guy with some decent test results - sounds as though you need to get the very basics right before you can expect to hit the targets - you've recognised sleep as a factor so you're on the right lines.
Also, as others have said, don't beat yourself to a pulp trying to hit your zones - they're deliberately tough & remember when you did your test you probably were mentally psyching-up for days beforehand with the target of killing the workout! You do kill it & then afterwards have to deliver, only that sometimes you're mentally fried - not physically, mentally.
Also, think 'point of diminishing returns' on your workouts - you'll be getting nearly as good an adaptation (sometimes better) buy turning that beast of 2 x 20's @ FTP into 2 x 25' @ 85% / 'sweet-spot' zone. Ditch the HR monitor, use your indoor set-up (stick it outside, crank up some metallica on the ol' ipod & get busy!).
I'd be intrigued to see what your daily food intake is like & also the timings of your meals - we have an expert on here plus loads of us have screwed up nutrition (or still are!) and are paying the price - so share buddy!
And as an FYI, this weekend was MUCH better. Much stronger on my bike. Was actually able to hold close to zone 3 (about 200-220 watts) for 75 minutes on the ride today. Finally found a long straight away to just go nuts on, and that made a huge difference. I also slept 9 hours last night, deciding to not set the alarm and just deal with heat/wind today. And I needed it. That's the longest I've slept in several weeks and it felt good.
@david - i've been doing a lot of reading on nutrition. I think I'm doing pretty well at this, but i'll give you some background and please let me know what you think. As far as meals, I have 3 normal meals, and then tons of snacks. I wake up with coffee (i have to for work) and either granola with yogurt or raisin bran. I try to bring my lunch to work most days, which is a turkey/roast beef sandwich on whole grain with two apples, a banana, and a balance bar. For dinner, I eat chicken, fish, carne asada, tacos, or pasta (variations of those). When I run/bike, I try to fuel every 20-45 minutes, 45 minutes with GUs or 20 minutes with two clif bloks. I take two water bottles with me, filled sometimes with cytomax, and sometimes with infinit. I try to take in about 300 calories per hour on the bike. If I workout for <2 hours, I only do the water bottles with cytomax and maybe 1 GU. After workouts, I have muscle milk shakes, sometimes smoothies, and eggs or pancakes. During the week, it may only be a muscle milk shake and then dinner. so with that, any advice? <br />
@suzanne Breaking out the sun workout into 3 intervals would be MUCH easier
Thanks again for the feedback everyone!
There's a motto around here: "Don't follow your training plan into a brick wall." The fact that you needed (and thankfully got) 9 hours of sleep is a sign you are entering the world of "over-reaching" in your training. We each try to learn our own signals for needing some extra rest or recovery time - sleep changes, weight changes, emotional changes, morning resting HR - all can be indicators.
Monday and Friday are the best days on the written plan for taking some time off. Or, if you simply can't allow yourself a day away from exercise, try sandbagging a workout - just do 45-60 minutes of Zone 1 work, or an easy swim instead of what's written. Anything keep your body from slipping over the cliff. There is no single workout in the plans that is make or break for your success on Nov 21.
As to how to manage during a workout, especially in terms of mental preparedness for the race: IMO, I like to be able to "negative split" my effort in any given workout (excepting any cool down period). Meaning if I can't drop my pace or increase my power a little in the last interval compared to the first, than I started out too hard. In my mind, in the race, the start of each leg should feel too easy, and the end should feel too hard. I try to replicate that sense in my workouts.
I don't know about others here in EN, but I do not complete every single workout exactly as written - a few I have to skip, and a few I don't complete (maybe one or two every 1-2 weeks). And I still do OK in the race. You do what you can with the time and energy you have on any given day.