From a civil law perspective, there's not much they can legally do to you unless they have the legal right to restrict displays on the course. I suppose this is possible, but not likely. That said, if they can convince a cop to shut you down, and you refuse to comply, you might face some misdemeanor criminal charges for refusing to obey the cop. Also, keep in mind that they don't have to be right to sue you and cause you to spend money/time you don't have, although they DO have to have a colorable (i.e., non-frivolous) claim.
I cannot imagine that WTC has the right to prevent EN from displaying its signs and banners on public roads that comprise an Ironman course. You might send a letter to WTC let them know that you were harassed and ask them for the documentation showing they have the right/authority to force you to remove the EN signage.
Regarding the Expo, you probably do not want to force that one. I would think they DO have the right to protect paying sponsors by kicking you out of that area.
I agree with Steve. The expo issue could be seen as you using the expo without paying to snag participants and solicit them for your group, not really just using it as a meeting place for your group. Regarding the course, unless WTC has some agreement with the city to restrict locations of free speech, don't see why you can't set up wherever for your cheering crew. If you have trouble, I'd go with the standing up to random dude, but probably complying with the cop. Of course then I'd photograph your clearly spectating-support-only set-up and that of various other groups that will be on the course for cheering and complain to WTC. Also helpful in case WTC decides to be troublesome in the future.
Mile 18 will be on the Univ of Wisconsin property, I would check with their policies just to have that information at the ready...pull the policy out of your speedo.
Mile 18 will be on the Univ of Wisconsin property, I would check with their policies just to have that information at the ready...pull the policy out of your speedo.
Good point Hayes. Scanning the University Policy, it would seem very likely that WTC had to enter into some form of contract with the University to permit them to run the course through the campus.
Basic you break it you pay for it kinda stuff along with the generic "you agree to follow all public laws and rules of the University" which is kinda a catch all term. I have only just scanned this, but so far I can't find anything that says you can't assemble 10 dudes in pink speedos. However, there is a restriction on the use of signs and banners on the University property.
"UWS 18.06 Conduct on University Lands. (17) Signs. No person may erect, post or attach any signs, posters, pictures or any item of a similar nature in or on any building or upon other university lands except on regularly established bulletin boards, or as authorized by the provision of this code or by the chief administrative officer."
Mile 18 will be on the Univ of Wisconsin property, I would check with their policies just to have that information at the ready...pull the policy out of your speedo.
Good point Hayes. Scanning the University Policy, it would seem very likely that WTC had to enter into some form of contract with the University to permit them to run the course through the campus.
Basic you break it you pay for it kinda stuff along with the generic "you agree to follow all public laws and rules of the University" which is kinda a catch all term. I have only just scanned this, but so far I can't find anything that says you can't assemble 10 dudes in pink speedos. However, there is a restriction on the use of signs and banners on the University property.
"UWS 18.06 Conduct on University Lands. (17) Signs. No person may erect, post or attach any signs, posters, pictures or any item of a similar nature in or on any building or upon other university lands except on regularly established bulletin boards, or as authorized by the provision of this code or by the chief administrative officer."
my take as a once practicing litigator: assuming you were using expo space that had been rented, I think WTC has a valid point if, however, you were in space that was not part of the expo, the only folks who can complain is the hotel.
with respect to the flag/signage: some cities do have ordinances about flags, posters, signs, etc on public property and/or adjacent to public roads. Depending on the jurisdiction, you may actually need a permit... and may or may not need to pay for such permit (the right to assemble isn't necessarily free...).
I don't know what was up with this woman or what the local laws are, but it sounds to me like she had her panties in knots and was just trying to spew piss and vinegar hoping you'd back down. But if you're expecting a challenge from her or others at future races, you may want to do your homework first... and, if permits are required for flags, signs, chalk, etc, contact the local authorities in advance to get it squared away... and be ready to throw it all right back at her when she tries to put the kabosh on things.
Mile 18 will be on the Univ of Wisconsin property, I would check with their policies just to have that information at the ready...pull the policy out of your speedo.
Good point Hayes. Scanning the University Policy, it would seem very likely that WTC had to enter into some form of contract with the University to permit them to run the course through the campus.
Basic you break it you pay for it kinda stuff along with the generic "you agree to follow all public laws and rules of the University" which is kinda a catch all term. I have only just scanned this, but so far I can't find anything that says you can't assemble 10 dudes in pink speedos. However, there is a restriction on the use of signs and banners on the University property.
"UWS 18.06 Conduct on University Lands. (17) Signs. No person may erect, post or attach any signs, posters, pictures or any item of a similar nature in or on any building or upon other university lands except on regularly established bulletin boards, or as authorized by the provision of this code or by the chief administrative officer."
I see the problem that someone can have with a "sign", but what if you never put the EN banner in the ground and had it in you hands? Then it becomes a flag, right? Then they had better be talking to 75-80% of the folks along the course and asking them to put down their signs and flags.
There is really nothing that they can do. They can ask you to leave the expo or to remove your sign. Cops are the ones that enforce rules/law when the asking nice thing does not work out. Seems unlikely that the police, campus or not, are going to care about you and your sign, or flag or whatever. Assuming that you are not super drunk and belligerent chances are they will assume that you are one of the jackass IM crowd and leave you alone. What you can legally [and I am not really comfortable with that word] do or not do usually has nothing to do with it.
However, there should be large fines levied on any men wearing a speedo for any reason. This includes while swimming.
If PNF kicks your ass while you are wearing a pink speedo I really hope that someone gets it on video.
IWTC pushes hard to protect their "intellectual property" ... apparently not just trademarks, but the whole Iron-world . Fortunately, they don't always win. In 1997 they sent a cease and desist letter to Iron Woman tea who basically told them to piss on themselves. It's 2010 now, and they are still using that logo ... http://www.traditionalmedicinals.com/ironwoman. Sometimes you just wish Marvel comics would pull WTC's license to use Ironman because they are...and remain...the original owner!
We're cool with the no talk in the expo thing...but we're still gonna rally up 40-50+ people at KSwiss and take them somewhere _just_ outside the expo . And no signs on the course...I'll blow off a WTC rep but will listen to a cop or campus rep, no questions asked.
@Paul: WTC doesn't need a license from Marvel to use the IRONMAN brand. Apparently, they took a license many years ago, probably to avoid a potential lawsuit. But I'm not sure that license agreement is even still in effect, and WTC is large enough now that they could probably fight anyu lawsuit.
FWIW, I've gotten probably 3-4 love letters from WTC over the years, mostly for calling something an Ironman training plan or using the word Ironman in the title of an article, training camp name, etc.
As far as the sign goes, I know around here if its not put into the ground our strapped to something public then its not illegal. If I were the cop I would ask you if you had planted it to take it up and hold it and then please wait a respectable time to replant it. I see that only happening if the WTC who is paying for all the police overtime forces the issue, as cops have bigger things to worry about.
As far as the the talk goes, if you were to be blocking some sort of exit/entry way or causing people to have to say go into the street to go around then it would be a problem. If they really wanted to say it was to big then they would have to declare it an unlawful assembly (which is more the 10 people unarmed or 5 people armed) and then ask you to disperse. The WTC lady could not do it it would have to come from a high ranking police official.
@Rich: As long as you're using the term to describe the actual race (e.g., Endurance Nation's Ironman Louisville Training Camp or "Ten Tips for Ironman Training) it's a fair use (that's a legal term). I'd guess that 99 time out of 100 WTC doesn't really care that you use the mark, they just have to be able to provide evidience that they are protecting their mark from becoming generic, because in the one case where they DO care, the defendant is going to argue that the term "Ironman" has become generic and is no longer entitled to trademark protection.
FYI, in some instances, such as the Training Camp example, you could put a "TM" after Ironman and drop a footnote on your marketing collateral to identify that Ironman is a registered mark owned by WTC and is being used solely to describe the actual race for which you are offering a non-WTC sanctioned training camp. The key here is to provide information clearly stating that you are not affiliated with WTC. As far as the articles go, tell them to kiss your a**, as your use of the mark in that manner is "merely descriptive".
It's been a while since we've gotten a love letter, nearly 3 years. In the meantime I continue to call stuff, on the web, the Four Keys of Ironman Execution, Ironman this that and the other thing. If they want to pay a lawyer $1k to send us an email, I'm happy to change the text on a webpage and then maybe change it back 4-5wks later .
Comments
From a civil law perspective, there's not much they can legally do to you unless they have the legal right to restrict displays on the course. I suppose this is possible, but not likely. That said, if they can convince a cop to shut you down, and you refuse to comply, you might face some misdemeanor criminal charges for refusing to obey the cop. Also, keep in mind that they don't have to be right to sue you and cause you to spend money/time you don't have, although they DO have to have a colorable (i.e., non-frivolous) claim.
I cannot imagine that WTC has the right to prevent EN from displaying its signs and banners on public roads that comprise an Ironman course. You might send a letter to WTC let them know that you were harassed and ask them for the documentation showing they have the right/authority to force you to remove the EN signage.
Regarding the Expo, you probably do not want to force that one. I would think they DO have the right to protect paying sponsors by kicking you out of that area.
Good point Hayes. Scanning the University Policy, it would seem very likely that WTC had to enter into some form of contract with the University to permit them to run the course through the campus.
The basic use policy is here:
http://www.union.wisc.edu/meetings/policies/P1.html
T&Cs that WTC likely had to sign up to are here:
http://www.union.wisc.edu/meetings/policies/G13.html
Basic you break it you pay for it kinda stuff along with the generic "you agree to follow all public laws and rules of the University" which is kinda a catch all term. I have only just scanned this, but so far I can't find anything that says you can't assemble 10 dudes in pink speedos. However, there is a restriction on the use of signs and banners on the University property.
"UWS 18.06 Conduct on University Lands. (17) Signs. No person may erect, post or attach any signs, posters, pictures or any item of a similar nature in or on any building or upon other university lands except on regularly established bulletin boards, or as authorized by the provision of this code or by the chief administrative officer."
That detail can be found here:
http://www.union.wisc.edu/meetings/policies/G7.html
my take as a once practicing litigator: assuming you were using expo space that had been rented, I think WTC has a valid point if, however, you were in space that was not part of the expo, the only folks who can complain is the hotel.
with respect to the flag/signage: some cities do have ordinances about flags, posters, signs, etc on public property and/or adjacent to public roads. Depending on the jurisdiction, you may actually need a permit... and may or may not need to pay for such permit (the right to assemble isn't necessarily free...).
I don't know what was up with this woman or what the local laws are, but it sounds to me like she had her panties in knots and was just trying to spew piss and vinegar hoping you'd back down. But if you're expecting a challenge from her or others at future races, you may want to do your homework first... and, if permits are required for flags, signs, chalk, etc, contact the local authorities in advance to get it squared away... and be ready to throw it all right back at her when she tries to put the kabosh on things.
I see the problem that someone can have with a "sign", but what if you never put the EN banner in the ground and had it in you hands? Then it becomes a flag, right? Then they had better be talking to 75-80% of the folks along the course and asking them to put down their signs and flags.
There is really nothing that they can do. They can ask you to leave the expo or to remove your sign. Cops are the ones that enforce rules/law when the asking nice thing does not work out. Seems unlikely that the police, campus or not, are going to care about you and your sign, or flag or whatever. Assuming that you are not super drunk and belligerent chances are they will assume that you are one of the jackass IM crowd and leave you alone. What you can legally [and I am not really comfortable with that word] do or not do usually has nothing to do with it.
However, there should be large fines levied on any men wearing a speedo for any reason. This includes while swimming.
If PNF kicks your ass while you are wearing a pink speedo I really hope that someone gets it on video.
I have nothing to add to the thread because I'm too busy laughing my ass off at this quote.
I believe the slightly more expensive version of AAA covers bail bond.
We're cool with the no talk in the expo thing...but we're still gonna rally up 40-50+ people at KSwiss and take them somewhere _just_ outside the expo
. And no signs on the course...I'll blow off a WTC rep but will listen to a cop or campus rep, no questions asked.
@Paul: WTC doesn't need a license from Marvel to use the IRONMAN brand. Apparently, they took a license many years ago, probably to avoid a potential lawsuit. But I'm not sure that license agreement is even still in effect, and WTC is large enough now that they could probably fight anyu lawsuit.
FWIW, I've gotten probably 3-4 love letters from WTC over the years, mostly for calling something an Ironman training plan or using the word Ironman in the title of an article, training camp name, etc.
As far as the sign goes, I know around here if its not put into the ground our strapped to something public then its not illegal. If I were the cop I would ask you if you had planted it to take it up and hold it and then please wait a respectable time to replant it. I see that only happening if the WTC who is paying for all the police overtime forces the issue, as cops have bigger things to worry about.
As far as the the talk goes, if you were to be blocking some sort of exit/entry way or causing people to have to say go into the street to go around then it would be a problem. If they really wanted to say it was to big then they would have to declare it an unlawful assembly (which is more the 10 people unarmed or 5 people armed) and then ask you to disperse. The WTC lady could not do it it would have to come from a high ranking police official.
FYI, in some instances, such as the Training Camp example, you could put a "TM" after Ironman and drop a footnote on your marketing collateral to identify that Ironman is a registered mark owned by WTC and is being used solely to describe the actual race for which you are offering a non-WTC sanctioned training camp. The key here is to provide information clearly stating that you are not affiliated with WTC. As far as the articles go, tell them to kiss your a**, as your use of the mark in that manner is "merely descriptive".
Steve, keep it coming, we may just hire you
.
It's been a while since we've gotten a love letter, nearly 3 years. In the meantime I continue to call stuff, on the web, the Four Keys of Ironman Execution, Ironman this that and the other thing. If they want to pay a lawyer $1k to send us an email, I'm happy to change the text on a webpage and then maybe change it back 4-5wks later
.
Steve can be our WSM (Wicked Smart Member) for Lawyer Stuff.
There's always time, but I think we've, um, run out of real estate
How about this?
There are a bunch of guys on that "team" at timberman every year. That gentleman is NOT the largest.
Two words: Body paint.
@chris I did not see Team Angry this year at Timberman, I for one am inspired by them.