Real time IF/NP/TSS - my jurassic park moment / why you want it
While I certainly never did my own math on the subject I have long been a believer in the low VI is the best way to get around a bike course fast camp. Even before having a PM I had spent hours reading the old ST debates with Strauss and Ashburn [still think with the addition of an LLC that sounds like a bad ass law firm BTW], Lakerfan etc explaining why hammering up the hill and coasting down is stupid.
Also, believed Rich when he told me several times through the years that watching then play out in real time was key but never really thought they were a must have. Having a Joule for the last few months has changed my opinion about the value. It is one thing to believe something and understand it. It is another to see it with your own eyes. Kinda like in Jurassic Park when they go from thinking they "know all about" dinosaurs from looking at fossils to the understanding they get very quickly when the dinosaurs are trying to eat them.
Point is that you can change IF and NP [and therefore TSS] in a hurry with short hard efforts. To illustrate [this is from an exchange that Murphy'sLaw [which explains the super low power numbers :-)]and I had on the subject as he is new Joule owner as well:
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Entire workout (225 watts):
Duration: 1:26:45
Work: 1173 kJ
TSS: 120.7 (intensity factor 0.914)
Norm Power: 265
VI: 1.18
Pw:HR: 2.08%
Pa:HR: 18.77%
Distance: 28.878 mi
Elevation Gain: 2695 ft
Elevation Loss: 2720 ft
Grade: -0.0 % (-26 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 799 225 watts
Heart Rate: 78 166 139 bpm
Cadence: 34 196 89 rpm
Speed: 0 49.2 20.0 mph
Pace 1:13 0:00 3:00 min/mi
And the "fun" part, the Half Mile Hill From Hell: (extra pleasant w/ a 23 granny)
Tinker Hill Rd:
Duration: 4:37
Work: 105 kJ
TSS: 13.9 (intensity factor 1.342)
Norm Power: n/a
VI: n/a
Pw:HR: 2.92%
Pa:HR: 13.48%
Distance: 0.51 mi
Elevation Gain: 391 ft
Elevation Loss: 0 ft
Grade: 14.7 % (391 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 236 537 380 watts
Heart Rate: 132 166 156 bpm
Cadence: 47 82 54 rpm
Speed: 4.5 11.2 6.6 mph
Pace 5:22 13:25 9:03 min/m
WKO wont calc NP for any effort under 5 mins, but PA does. Had me at 389 for the climb.
Funny/interesting Joule/NP stuff - NP for the ~ 1hr to the base of the climb was 246. When I finished it was 265 at 1:05. Work works, huh?
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The NP for the ride changed from 246 to 265 in 5 minutes in a total ride time of 1:05. Think about how much faster you could ride the same distance with the extra 20 watts applied evenly for the 1:05 than just the spike at the end. It is amazing how much I can move IF in short periods of time even when looking at long intervals. While you can do the analysis by looking at the ride in WKO plus it is different when it is staring you in the face.
Granted as our goal on race day is always to ride with a low VI this should not be remotely shocking but watching things like this happen in front of my eyes for a few months has really given me a much better understanding of riding with power.
Comments
Newbie question though Re: VI. Theres no way you can actually view real time VI on the joule is there? Just TSS, NP and IF right? I'm young and stupid so my downfall in races is rarely fitness related but rather execution/experience related. I have the hardest time keeping a low VI no matter how hard I try. Hoping Joule helps me with that aspect some.
No VI on the fly but it is 1.0 when your AP and NP are the same.
Chris, yes, you can change IF of the ride with hard efforts but they have to be VERY hard efforts to change it the deeper you go into a ride. I've been doing a roadie ride on Saturdays and we hit a couple key hills. I absolutely murder myself on these short hills, like 450-500w+ (and guys are walking away from me) and I'll check out the change in IF at the top of the hill through the haze of my eyeballs bleeding. Yes, it does change the IF significantly, very quickly, but it's these monstrous efforts that really do the job.
For me, the value (I have an Ergomo so I'd like to welcome you Joule owners to 2006) of real time IF, TSS, Pnorm is the "squeezing the lemon" thing. We all know that training with power allows you to identify all the lost work opportunities you've been missing, pushing harder here, much harder there, staying on the gas when you would otherwise back off, etc. Having those numbers on the dial takes _that_ experience up another notch or two. All of my rides are very, very time efficient as, just as you know how hard you are working in real time, I know in real time how hard my ENTIRE ride is, or isn't, based on my goals for the ride.
The net is that I almost never finish a ride shorter than 3hrs with an IF of less than .85-86 and if I do it's because I had to coast miles and miles down a hill I just climbed.
I'm not sure seeing VI in real time is going to help. A low VI is achievable purely from executing the right plan. So, if you have problems yielding high VIs then it is most likely related to climbing too hard (and probably a bit from coasting too much too) but that just means you're not following your plan. And that plan is almost entirely based on what power (range) you should apply in real-time on a given gradient, ie, flats, short/steep climbs or long/gradual climbs.
I'll admit that I'm far from convinced that a new or different computer is going to solve this problem. Like Chris stated, having those metrics available on your CPU certainly help you to fully understand why we say what we say about the value of low VIs but it really comes down to self discipline when executing.
It's a tough message to send to people but it's the brutal truth, imho. You MUST hold back in the hills.
Thanks, Chris
First, I appreciate the feedback. If anyone finds it relevent, heres a bit more info.
My initial problems with high VI were related simply to not executing according to plan, going too hard on the hills and peaking in power in the early part of race. This was riding in the spirit of EN guidance, but not adhering to the exact limits imposed by the plan, took some time to truly learn and believe that I was throwing watts away rather than making up a little extra time.
Current problems with VI are a variety of factors. On the hardware side, it is near impossible for me to ride hills on the IMWI course at budget watts without an uncomfortably low cadence, <60, and even when the watts do say they are low they don't at all "feel" low. I'm pretty suspicious that the same wattage at different cadences doesn't start to have pretty different physiological responses. Spinning up a hill at 210 watts may feel light and breezy, but riding in slow mo really prolonging the engagement of your muscles on each pedal stroke feels more detrimental to me than the wattage on the screen would imply. Simple answer, get a compact, but just won't happen for this race. Can't afford nor have time to sell of my Quarq and get a new compact with one, already switched to an 11-28 in the back. <br />
The second and more overwhelming issue with VI for me is/was just developing the skillset of riding steady. Part of developing this skill was using wattage from computer in order to ensure I was in fact riding steady at target. No matter how hard I concentrated on smoothing my pedal stroke and riding steady, the un-smoothed (no averaging whatsoever) reporting of wattage on my 310xt was very bouncy. It was always a constant struggle to zero in on a target wattage and probably made my wattage even more bouncy in account of constantly trying to make small perceived adjustments to power to center on desired wattage. New computer has been a mental help here as my 3s power is a lot more in line with my RPE and I spend less time stressing about my power and more time riding.
But all of this aside, I completely agree with you, it really is all about the mental discpline to execute according to plan, assuming a certain amount of execution skill in the first pkace, my brain says put out X watts and but sometimes my legs say here's X+/-20. Second point I hinted on early on, increased understanding and demonstration of the principals of EN pacing by way of ride analysis, whether it be real time or post ride, simply increases my confidence in the guidance itself and my own committment to better adhere to it.
@ Trevor - how long have you been riding with power? I never have any smoothing on my head unit. It is bad enough that there is a couple of second lag as it is. FWIW there was far less with with the YLC than the Garmin, Joule seems a touch better than the Garmin but about the same. If you watch the bouncing numbers long enough you will get a feel for where they are. If you are looking for rolling averages I would also show real time watts.
I attack an IM course by climbing pretty much as easy as I can, sometimes I even climb at my goal watts and don't even increase my effort at all. Then I try to hold the same target watts for as long as possible going down hill until I spin out. I also focus on smooth acceeration out of the turns. I bet most people throw out 300+ wats for the first 15 seconds of every turn or start...that adds up over time. In otherwords my main goal is to ride at my goal watts as much as possible, if I hit a hit and can hold goal watts I do. It may not be the fastest way around the course, but it works for me and my legs.
Also, I personally can ride much smoother if I don't stare at the power meter. I watch it but I don't stare at it as that just makes me try to make constant corrections. For that reason I agree with Chris W that having VI on a display is not going to really fix the issue.
Now is not the time to change anything or try anything new. Just race like you have trained and take the hills as easy as you reasonibly can. Remember to push on the downhills as it will actually be hard to hit your target watts then, and be very carefull with all the accelerations after turns at IMWI. Then spend sometime this winter really focusing on riding as smooth as possible. On a trainer you should be able to hit 1.00 or 1.01 IF pretty regularly, once you get the hang of it.
Less than one year. I got my Quarq last Decemberish and started riding on it over the winter first indoors then for the first time outdoors this season. FWIW, I've only been riding bikes (as an adult) in general for 2 years. Some things take time and practice, I might be trying to shortcut things too quickly.
@Matt
Thanks for the input, I have a CT as well and will likely pay a lot more attention to VI than I did last winter (i.e not at all). I didn't really get into EN until late-winter / early-spring so I was not paying hardly any attention to these metrics. In response to my whole VI panic in general, I honestly had not been too worried about it until RR#2 out on the WI course when I really tried to have a low VI but still came out with 1.1. This convinced me that I was horrible at riding at steady and I desperately needed to fix it. A few weeks later I mellowed out some and have been spending less time staring at the computer and more time just 'feeling' my pedal stroke and things have been much nicer, I use all of my long interval sets as practice and examine the VI later in WKO. Even the original RR freakout is probably negligible, I had a ton of mechincals on that ride and was stopping and starting constantly, towards the end I got really aggrivated and started spiking my watts. Starting to have more confidence that things will go a lot better on raceday with a level head.
General Joule Question since Chris is starting to convince me that with a Joule may be worth it (at the current promo price). How customizable is the display? Can I set it to show: Current Power, Interval Average Power, Total Ride NP, cadence and inteval time only?
I've become used to seeing both lap metrics and some full ride metrics at the same time on my Garmin and really like that ability.
Saw you post in one of the other Joule threads about my feedback on it so far coming from Garmins. Wanted to get back to you, but still have to get a few more rides under my belt in order to figure out all of the features. Here's my quick take though in response to your questions.
Ok, if you want to save yourself some reading, the quick answer to your question about Lap and Full ride metrics at the same time on the Joule is no, not that I've seen. The longer version follows.
The main display on the Joule is called your Dashboard. By default you have 6 fields available to you on the Dashboard with 2 additional context specific supplementary fields available at the bottom of the screen. In the latest firmware, they allow you to change from 6 fields to 4 fields displayed bigger, but again not quite as customizable as the Garmin.
On the dashboard, you can set any of the 6 fields to the metric of your choosing. Additionally, during the ride you can use the little Joystick nub to select any one of these primary metrics and the 2 extra fields at the bottom will display additional information that corresponds to the primary metric. A big difference that is immediately apparent is that I'm fairly sure you only get one dashboard, as least as far as I can figure out. You can't configure multiple screens as you can on the Garmin and then cycle through them. There is a little bit of a catch to this as it pertains to intervals, but I'll touch on that later.
On your dashboard, the primary metrics and the additional metrics that will appear if you select them are as follows:
Watts (Avg, Max)
Watts/Kg (Avg, Max)
5s Peak Power (5min, 20min)
kJ (kJ/hr, TSS)
Cadence (Avg, Max)
HR (Avg, Max)
Speed (Avg, Max)
%Grade (Current Altitude, Altitude Gain)
Vertical Ascent (Current Altitude, Altitude Gain)
RideTime (Ride Distance, Time of Day)
A few notes, the options for data smoothing, such as 3s Power, Cadence or Speed smoothing are set in a different menu and seem to apply to all metrics. Such that if you set power to 3s power, that is all you get, you couldn't have 3s power and power on screen at the same time. I also have not been able to figure out if it is possible to change the order of the metrics. As I said, when you chose one of these you get the first one listed up on your dashboard, with the other 2 only shown when you select it with the joystick. I don't know if it's possible to chose which one of the 3 metrics is shown on the dashboard versus the bottom of the screen.
Now towards your interval question. Intervals work differently than they do on the Garmin (i.e. laps). There are only 3 buttons on the Joule (mode, joystick and Interval) and as you'd expect the interval button is pretty similar to the Lap button on the Garmin. When you start a ride you on the Joule you by default in "Interval 0", if you hit the Interval button you mark an interval in the power file but absolutely nothing seems to change on your dashboard. All of your current metrics still pertain to the overall ride. Now, if you press and hold the interval button (for 2s I think) the dashboard will change to Interval Mode and all of your metrics will now pertain only to the current interval. In addition, the interval number is displayed at the top of the screen. Again, one thing I am not sure about here is whether or not you can configure your interval mode dashboard to display different metrics than your standard dashboard, but I haven't seen anything that would indicate that you can. What you can do however is disable interval mode without exiting your interval, so you could view your interval/lap metrics, switch back to the main dashboard to view total statistics, and then go back to interval mode all on the same interval. Not ideal compared to the Garmin.
Still, in despite of all of this I still like the Joule so far, but that easier for me coming from the tiny 4-field display of the 310xt. It's different than what you are used to on a Garmin, but I'm not sure if different means worse, or just different. So far I still miss aspects of the Garmin but I think I can live without them. From the 500 it's a tougher call, CycleOps seems to be pretty committed to firmware updates and they have some really specialized and complicated features (built in ride-analytics, the Reports mode which I did not discuss) but at the expense of some of the more basic and important features that the Garmin has. Potentially the Joule is a firmware update away from being an even more potent device if they just allowed more dashboard customization and/or multiple dashboards.
You can do that easily. You can have as many as 6 things showing on the dash. That is really 8 though as whatever one of the window is highlighted will have the 2 other corresponding values in the bottom 2 display areas. For example if you have speed on one of the 6 windows and it is highlighted the bottom 2 will show average speed and max speed, distance would show time and KJ, IF will show NP and TSS. It is really really easy to set up how you want. Can even do it while riding [likely not a good idea] if you want just by holding down the joy stick.
You can also change the number of things on the dash. I currently as using 4, power, IF, HR or speed depending if I have the hr strap on, and distance leaving distance highlighted so that I have time showing down below. You toggle back and forth between total ride and interval by holding down the right button for a couple of seconds. Really easy. Have never managed to mess up any data. Can't say the same for when I have used the Garmin.
@Chris - you almost had me convinced, but I don't think I'm switching yet. The lack of flexibility with the screen layout is a big downfall in my mind...that was what drove me so crazy about the LYC. Yes, I know the data is available, but I don't want to have to mess with anything during the ride. With the edge I can have ANY 8 pieces of data I want in front of me at all times and not have to touch anything. Plus, I'm also not fond of having to add a speed sensor to my bike (especially since many people are having distance issues with it). At some point I will have NP/IF on the bike, but for now I know that on my long rides my average power better be about 215 or I'm not working hard enough. Thats my carrot and stick and works well for me. Maybe in the spring...
In the mean time, i'll stick to being super anal about my setup and having to have everything a certain way.
I use the 3s moving average most of the time. Yes, there's a delay, but I find the plus of the reduced noise to outweigh the disadvantage of the delayed response.
Is there a contractual/licensing reason Garmin hasn't brought in TSS/NP? I've never figured out why that doesn't just show up in the next firmware release... If contracts are the issue, they could go the route of RaceDay and just come up with something very similar, I would think.
In the meantime, as long as I don't do the "mad stomping" thing to really throw off the NP because of the exponent, I find that the average power that doesn't include zeros comes out very close to the NP. I know this is not mathematically valid or justifiable, but it is an empirical observation, so that's what I do (despite gazillions of recommendations on other fora that you HAVE to include the zeros in the averaging...blah, blah, blah) I'm sure this approximation gets much worse if you're doing a roadie style ride. But for you Garmin users on low VI rides, it might be worth looking at if you want a closer number.
There is no contract or licensing requirement to have TSS/NP/IF displayed from your product. It appears Saris/CycleOps finally caved simply due to market demand. Allen Lim was the problem at Saris. He took a long time to come around.
Thanks, Chris