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Good news from cyclops for mac users, added metrics

LynneJLynneJ
in General Training Discussions

Latest newletter talks about changes coming to PowerAgent early 2010 with release of Joule head unit. Will include TSS, IF, NP most importantly as additional metrics. Good news for those of us who can't/don't use WKO. Will also add temperature and altitude for people who use Joule or Garmin head units with PowerAgent. I already wanted a Garmin 500 but this just increases the desireimage

Lynne

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    manconamancona
    Great news, if it can do a PMC chart as well, it could another great (and free) alternative to WKO+.

    The Gamin edge 500 was in stock and available as of yesterday at the Garmin store in Chicago. I'm waiting to see a few reviews and as long as it works like the 705 and not like the 310, I will likely be picking one up and then will share my thoughts in the forums.
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    Gordon CherwoniakGordon Cherwoniak
    Posted By mancona (aka Matt Ancona) on 03 Dec 2009 09:24 AM

    Great news, if it can do a PMC chart as well, it could another great (and free) alternative to WKO+.



    So where do I find the PMC.  Is this in WKO+?  I have not dug around that much in the software but did not see this but I could have missed it.  I pretty much download the powertap workouts and look at the intervals.

    Thanks

    Gordon



     

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    Fisher MarkFisher Mark

    Have you heard anything about the Garmin 500 compatibility with WKO?  I am currently using the 310 but the discrepencies between the device and WKO is driving me nuts!  My intent all along was to get the 500 when it came out and just use the 310 to replace my 305.

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    Tom GlynnTom Glynn
    Posted By Gordon Cherwoniak on 03 Dec 2009 09:31 AM
    Posted By mancona (aka Matt Ancona) on 03 Dec 2009 09:24 AM

    Great news, if it can do a PMC chart as well, it could another great (and free) alternative to WKO+.



    So where do I find the PMC.  Is this in WKO+?  I have not dug around that much in the software but did not see this but I could have missed it.  I pretty much download the powertap workouts and look at the intervals.

    Thanks

    Gordon



     

    Gordon,

     

    The Performance Mangement Chart should be a chart on your Athlete Home Page tab.  If it's not there, you can create one.  On the Athlete Home Page Tab at the top of the page on the right hand side across from your name there is an Options menu.  Click on it and then Add Chart to this Page.  There will be a PMC choice.

    I would consider the PMC chart to be an "upper division class" and not necessary to getting started with power.  It's cool and powerful, but it takes a bit to get your arms around what it is trying to show you.  If you are just starting out, analyze the interval and overall ride and then move on IMHO.

     

    tom

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    gilliattgilliatt

    I'm wondering what happened that make this happen?  (the story behind the story)  TSS, IF, and NP were Andrew Coggan's terms.  He must have sold the rights to them?  

    Is anyone else thinking about the Joule?  I think it looks like the real high end model.

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    Tom GlynnTom Glynn

     There were a bunch of posts on the Google Wattage forum concerning Coggan's work. He posted that he makes his metrics all open and freely accessible to those who want the math.  He makes no licensing fees on his work.

    I think he wants consistency in the power field and rather than have every small segment of a small population recreate the wheel or incorrectly reverse engineer his stuff.  He can make money selling books and training plans, and it's a whole lot easier if everyone speaks the same language.

    I like the things I've read about the Joule.  RIght now I use the little yellow computer with my PT and am pretty happy to analyze data after the ride in WKO, but it would be cool to have more info right in front of you.  However, I need to upgrade my wireless to ANT+ and buy the Joule, so I need to figure out if it's really worth tossing a perfectly good tool for something better.

     

    tom

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    manconamancona
    Posted By Mark Baumli on 03 Dec 2009 09:41 AM

    Have you heard anything about the Garmin 500 compatibility with WKO?  I am currently using the 310 but the discrepencies between the device and WKO is driving me nuts!  My intent all along was to get the 500 when it came out and just use the 310 to replace my 305.





     

    I haven't yet, but the it seems the 705 works well with WKO so I really hope the 500 works the same and they don't base it on the 310.   In fact i've read that it is based on the 705 and just had the mapping capabilities removed.   I'm watching the wattage group, slowtwitch and anything else I can find to see some reviews once more people get there hands on them.

    I don't want to be the first one using a new toy (i.e. testing for bugs), but I will be an early adopter once others have had some luck with.

    I'm also interested in seeing a Joule before I decide, but I'm just not sure if having TSS,IF, VI are worth double the price to me.

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    charrischarris

    If you believe this thread (and dcrainmaker is the garmin guru, so there's certainly no reason to doubt him):


     

    my very strong hunch is that WKO+ (or WKO- as I am fond of calling it) is going to have the same problems with the 500 that it has with the 310XT.  Mainly because it looks like the 500 will have the same mix between "Smart" Recording (for non power data) and 1s Recording (for power data).

     

    Not much to do but wait for CyclingPeaks to finally come out with 3.0, where I'm sure they'll have this fixed.  I imagine it will be coming out pretty soon - with the new RaceDay coming out on January 1st, I imagine WKO+ won't be too far behind, if at all.  But that's pure speculation, because they seem to be holding their cards pretty close to their chest.

     
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    manconamancona
    I just ordered a edge 500 yesterday and was planning on testing it out, but this isn't looking so good. I'll share my findings on how it works with WKO as soon as I get it.
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    charrischarris

    Hey Matt - check out this thread if you haven't stumbled across it already:

    http://endurancenation.us.dnnmax.co...fault.aspx

    Seems like good news on the 500 front (and perhaps 310XT) - time, and testing, will tell!

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    cwhytecwhyte
    Posted By Dan Gilliatt on 03 Dec 2009 11:31 AM

    I'm wondering what happened that make this happen?  (the story behind the story)  TSS, IF, and NP were Andrew Coggan's terms.  He must have sold the rights to them?  

    Is anyone else thinking about the Joule?  I think it looks like the real high end model.



    As Tom mentioned, there are no rights to be sold. It's freely available for anyone to implement. The story behind the story has to do with Arthur Lin (sp?), their chief architect. He previously did not believe in the NP paradigm. I told him that's ridiculous because it's not about what he thinks that's important, it's about what his customers think that's MOST important. Clearly there was significant customer demand. I was surprised it took them this long...

    Thanks, Chris

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    charrischarris

    I agree 100% that Saris was dumb to not do this earlier (and it sounds like it was for asinine reasons), but I believe the story about the rights is actually a bit (a lot?) more complicated.  Here's my understanding from reading a few wattage threads:

    -Coggan came up with the algorithms for NP/TSS/IF (as well as the names).

    -At the time, he said people could use them for non-commercial purposes.

    -He sensed people were beginning to use them for commercial purposes, so felt a need to protect them - but didn't want to have to do it himself.

    -As a result, he entered into an agreement to sell the NP/TSS/IF *trademarks* to CyclingPeaks (Peaksware LLC, actually) for use within WKO+ - but not the algorithms themselves (since they're public domain).

    -Peaksware LLC registered the trademarks in Europe.

    -This is where my memory gets even shakiery, but I believe the agreement only covered the use of the terms within WKO+ (and, perhaps, trainingpeaks.com?).  Other uses (e.g. Ergomo, iBike, Joule) required that Peaksware pay Coggan additional fees.

     

    So where we're at today is that the *algorithms* are free for anyone to use - I think the initial "please only use for non commercial purposes" gave way to a more pragmatic approach.

     

    So I could use the *exact* algorithms used to calculate NP/TSS/IF, and as long as I called them CP/CSS/CI (Craig's Power, Craig's Stress Score, Craig's Intensity), I'm set - I can put them in software, in a head unit, whatever.  But I can't call them NP/TSS/IF.

     

    Skiba took a slightly different approach in that his algorithm for xPower is similar to NP but calculated differently, so the resulting calculations (BikeScore, Relative Intensity) are also a little different.  I can understand why he did it, but in a way it's a pity, because it confuses what can already be confusing at the best of times and stifles innovation/competition (e.g. RaceDay is actually pretty good, but it's hard for it to get traction).

     
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