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Crucible Files: Matt Ancona & Dan Forbes...

Coach PatrickCoach Patrick
in General Training Discussions

Slowly getting through these...so sorry it's taking me this long!

Comments

  • gschlossnaglegschlossnagle
    Hi Patrick,

    You should just skip my RR. I've run my A race (Patriot's) last weekend and I have my B race (Grand Columbian) tomorrow. I'll post power files from those when I get back home.

    Thanks,

    George
  • manconamancona
    Thanks P! Really appreciate the feedback on these over the last 2 years.

    I'm a little concerned I went slightly too easy in the early part and slightly to hard at the end as I don't like the way my heart rate jump at the end. Of course that could be because I was in multiple layers of black and it was 80+ and sunny out.

    What do you think it I try and hold 2 or 3 more watts from 0:45 to Hawi, then 2 or 3 less watts from Hawi back?

    First :45 will stay the same and be low.
  • dan_forbesdan_forbes

     Thank you Patrick.  I appreciate the time.  You guys make it pretty simple, and therefore the execution seemed simple!  I watch out for the first hour, and maybe take in some more calories towards the end.  Send you the race file soon!

    Dan

     

  • cwhytecwhyte
    Posted By Matt Ancona on 17 Sep 2010 10:52 AM

    Thanks P! Really appreciate the feedback on these over the last 2 years.



    I'm a little concerned I went slightly too easy in the early part and slightly to hard at the end as I don't like the way my heart rate jump at the end. Of course that could be because I was in multiple layers of black and it was 80+ and sunny out.



    What do you think it I try and hold 2 or 3 more watts from 0:45 to Hawi, then 2 or 3 less watts from Hawi back?



    First :45 will stay the same and be low.

     

    Interesting question because I've always felt the appropriate power for any particular area of the course was a range, not a specific number. I've always allowed my RPE to determine exactly where in that range my power should actually be though.

    I'm not sure how realistic or even wise it is to try to micromanage your power to that degree. 2 - 3w for someone with an FTP in your range is pretty damn small. Keep in mind, from a more strategic perspective, this is certainly one course where neg splitting your power is not necessarily ideal.

    Anyway, just something to think about.

    Thanks, Chris

  • manconamancona
    Posted By Chris Whyte on 17 Sep 2010 12:34 PM
    Posted By Matt Ancona on 17 Sep 2010 10:52 AM

    Thanks P! Really appreciate the feedback on these over the last 2 years.



    I'm a little concerned I went slightly too easy in the early part and slightly to hard at the end as I don't like the way my heart rate jump at the end. Of course that could be because I was in multiple layers of black and it was 80+ and sunny out.



    What do you think it I try and hold 2 or 3 more watts from 0:45 to Hawi, then 2 or 3 less watts from Hawi back?



    First :45 will stay the same and be low.

     

    Interesting question because I've always felt the appropriate power for any particular area of the course was a range, not a specific number. I've always allowed my RPE to determine exactly where in that range my power should actually be though.

    I'm not sure how realistic or even wise it is to try to micromanage your power to that degree. 2 - 3w for someone with an FTP in your range is pretty damn small. Keep in mind, from a more strategic perspective, this is certainly one course where neg splitting your power is not necessarily ideal.

    Anyway, just something to think about.

    Thanks, Chris





     

    Thanks Chris, I tend to be a little too driven by numbers sometime so this is great feedback.

    I'm interested in your comment that negative spliting power may not be ideal as I thought it would (of course I have never rode the course).

    My thought process was to hold back on the way out to Hawi, so that I have strengh left on the way back to fight the head winds when others are tired from riding too hard on the way out.

    Is your theory that I should try to make it out as fast as possible and therefore go for more of an even split in power instead of saving something for the end of the ride? 

    If so, my goal is a NP of ~203, what would your targets or ranges be for each hour on this course?  My thoughts were 185, 200, 200, 205, 205 which would be slighty under but close.  In the first RR I went for 185, 195, 200, 200, 205 and came in a bit too low.

    I really appreciate any advice you can share based on your experience there.

  • atasicatasic

     Matt,

    I assume you raced before in Kona. I have not, but have spent on two occasions ten days each on that course. I only have a few words of wisdom for that course.

    Winds frequently shift there. On more than one occasion I have completed an out and back from Waikaloa to Hawii having mostly headwinds for the whole ride.

    I would be very conservative for the first half and stick with a lower end of your goal Watts range. You can always open it up on the way back. And still if you had some in reserve, you have the whole marathon to pour it on. 

    The crosswinds I encountered coming down from Hawii would induce some lower back fatigue from balancing during gusts. Keep that in mind as well. 

    Sorry if you already know all of this. Just thought I remind you. I think this course will reward you if you are wise and patient with it.

    You are an inspiration and will be eagerly awaiting Kona to cheer for you.

  • cwhytecwhyte

    A couple of thoughts:

    1. Somewhat over-simplified but you can think of it as a slightly uphill course out to Hawi and a slightly downhill course on the way back. All things equal, a neg split power is not as common as other courses for this reason.

    2. I'd say 70 - 80% of the time the winds on this course will build progressively (more in one direction than the other) throughout the day so the faster you get the Hawi the better (usually but not always). Even though this course is supposedly famous for having a headwind in both directions, that's a bit of an exaggeration. You'll most likely have a headwind from Waikoloa to Hawi but probably not from Hawi to Waikoloa. Don't get me wrong, the winds can be tricky coming down from Hawi but I think people over-hype the dual-headwind thing.

    My personal opinion is that an even split in power is like a neg split on any other course. Obviously it won't hurt to play it real conservative and go out easy but you're also a young dude and can recover much quicker than I can so the risk of you shooting for slightly higher power going out to Hawi is minimal, imho. In the end, if for any reason your RPE is telling things feel just a tad too hot then back off, of course.

    Maybe something like 195, 195, 210, 200, 205. Keep in mind there's a little bit of climbing in the first 20min so 1st and 2nd hour power might be roughly the same. Also, 3rd hour is going to involve slightly higher power due to the climb to Hawi.

    Hope that helps,

    Chris

     

  • Coach PatrickCoach Patrick
    What Chris said (gold mine!)...the faster you can get to Hawi the better. The 6+ hour bikes are LITERALLY in a different race due to headwind on way back. This is one reason why pros push the bike and why Norman (I think?) won one year b/c he was 15' up on the field by Hawi but like 20+ by the end as they had more headwind time (his watts, I believe, were consistent). Neither one of us are saying cook yourself. I go easy until Queen K just to be safe...it's crazy...then ramp it up...that will be about 20' in and you should, being a stud, be able to get up to your z2 power here and see some really fast times. Ride with folks legally until base of Hawi, then you are on your own...
  • t.mellingert.mellinger
    I agree with patrick and chris, the sooner you get to hawi the better. Make sure you ride the climb/descent to Hawi before hand too. Not knowing how to ride in that cross wind could cost you alot of time. The wind caught me by surprise and i did not ride it well, resulting in a much slower ride time comparative to the other guys i usually race against. I rode that section scared to death i was going to crash, hope i can go and redeem myself there soon.. image
  • Coach PatrickCoach Patrick
    Todd, you'll be baaaaaaaack!
  • manconamancona

    @Aleksander, Chris, P and Todd - Thank you for the great advice! I intend to get out and ride the into and out of Hawi on Tuesday afternoon when the wind has hopefully picked up and again Thursday afternoon. I will adjust my race plan according to the targets Chris laid out but ofcourse if RPE goes up I will go easier.



    Now I just have to keep working on getting out of the water faster or getting to start at 6:45 so I can get to Hawi even earlier.

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