no swimming in the out season? You've got to be kidding?
I'm a slow swimmer. I'm also bald. These two things I resolved a few years back would never change. I started triathlon 3 years ago and couldn't swim 25meters without hyperventilating. All my swimming had been lifeguard swimming with side-stroke practice and head-above-water swimming to "see the victim". Competitive swimming wasn't in my radar.
I just completed my first IM at Louisville this year and after expecting a 1:30:00 or better, ended up with a 1:43:00 for the swim. I know I need to improve this area because of many reasons. I had planned to work on it diligently during the off-season (oops, OUT-season) but now I'm learning that the out-season plans really don't think we should be swimming. Thus, here's my question:
A guy like me that's, at best, a MOP swimmer, how can I expect to improve my swimming for the season if I only start swimming in say March, as I think the plans suggest? That just seems like looney thinking, to me. I've heard the videos of Patrick saying the ROI isn't there for the amount of time spent swimming during the out-season vs spending time on it at the end of out-season training, but do I still fit into that same general category, given my background?
Comments
@Ed - in the swimming eBook they make mention of this scenario and the advice is if you can get 1-on-1 coaching to improve your form in the OS, then absolutely do it. The RnP experience is that any IM swim time higher than 1:15 is ALL technique, so swimming tons of laps isn't going to improve you from 1:45 to 1:15, but if you can get help with your swim form via 1-on-1 coaching it can be a huge improvement.
The thing here is that you can swim mindless laps all year long and not get any faster. In 2008 I swam 1:43 at IM-AZ after logging something insane like 100 hours of swimming in 3 months. In 2009 I swam 12 times....total....and swam a 1:42 at IMC. So tons of swimming didn't help me in terms of speed. I've finally managed to find a swim coach in my area who does 1-on-1 coaching with some video analysis, and I'm due to start with her in a couple of weeks. I have hopes of getting my swim time down to a more reasonable and efficient 1:15.
The argument here is that let's assume you do think you need to swim 2-3x a week for 45-60' each time. Let's say it's a 30' drive to/from the pool and you spend a total of 15' on administrative things like checking in, showering, changing. Now let's say that doing this, for you does actually make your swim time 15' better (i.e. 1:30 v 1:45 at IM.) You've logged 2.5-6 hours per week, for say 40 weeks = 100-240 hours, involved in swimming activities for a 00:15:00 improvement on race day. Is that really the best use of your time? I suppose if you're already biking sub 6:00 and running sub 4:00 on race day you could make the case that it is, but otherwise the logic in EN is that your time is better spent working the bike or run instead of swimming (assuming you're not getting that 1-on-1 stroke form help mentioned above.)
And I think I'm the only swimmer who is going to be required to swim in the OS this year.
As for improvement strategy, I'm planning on following Matt Ancona's example and getting quality private lessons first.
Excellent answers from Tony and Beth
And, as the guy that wrote that swim stuff and is thus on the dime for getting beat about the head and neck for our perceived no swimming in the OS thing:
Sorry
. I spent the better part of two weeks locked in a closet completely rewriting all of the swim stuff in the Haus and I didn't hold back. I had the evil former competitive swimmers hat on the whole time. My swims is tough, yo. You'll see.
Most even mid-size towns have a swim club for kids that's reasonably serious. If you need a place to start looking for some help and don't have a big-city resource nearby, that would be a good place to start.
As for the general lunacy of the method....
I should probably get some lessons to improve, but I did not last season. In 2009, my half ironman swims were around 37-38 minutes and my best 1000 yd time trial was between 15:00 and 15:30. Don't remember exactly. My IM WI swim was ~1:16. I spent a lot of winter "working on my swim" myself and I definitely improved my pool times. But the problem was that I peaked my swim far too early. (Like maybe May?) This year, I didn't start swimming at all until April 1 for my A-race that was July 31. My best 1000 yd time trial was a few seconds slower than last year, but my A-race (half IM) swim time was 32:xx. The difference was that I was hitting my peak swimming at the same time as my race and I learned a bit on how to execute my swim.
As part of the "get fast first" philosophy, I think what you'd be hearing from people is that your Outseason swim training should be all lesson/technique and not about getting fitter. Save that stress for the bike and run. If you're like most people, you'll be getting faster by getting more skillful, and then you can work the swim fitness on a better ROI basis as the race is getting nearer.
William
This is great feedback! Thanks for everything, folks. I like Patrick's suggestion of focus Oct-Dec on bike/run fitness for the OutSeason, then get some personal 1-1 swim help in Jan-Feb. That, to me, makes sense. Actually, everyone's comments make sense.
William: just a side note here. My 70.3 swim times are routinely 40:00-44:00 minutes, after finishing 4, thus I'm not usually a 1:43:00 IM swimmer, but this was my first IM as well. 4 weeks after fracturing my elbow and partially separating my shoulder this summer, I swam a 28:00 in an Oly race. Sure I'm a slow swimmer, but not so slow that I need to get into a beginners class (don't think my pride would allow that either.
) I know you were throwing out suggestions, and good ones too. Thanks tons!
Rich was right about the technique part - getting from a 1:43:00 down to the 1:20:00 that's representative of my usual swim times has GOT to be about technique. The fact that I got sick in the swim at IMLOU and nearly puked from nausia could come into play for a slower swim time.
Masters classes that I've attended in the past here in Chattanooga, TN were only a place for like-minded folks to swim, very little instruction was given to improve my swims. That's entirely the instructor, I know, but there's a second Masters class in town that I haven't tried - I like the 1-1 instruction idea much better!
I haven't read all of the responses but I would say that if you want to work on swimming in the OS then it shouldn't be mindless yardage (or even focused interval work, IMO). Get some 1-on-1 coaching to help with your technique (hire someone, go to a good master's team, etc.). Slow swimming is far more about technique than it is about fitness. Once you get the technique nailed down you can get by with very little swimming (in the past I've put in approximately 4,000 yards/week MAX and swim 1:00-1:02 IM swims - no swim fitness, all skill). If you feel like you need to improve your swim technique is where its at. All that time you are spending in the pool, ESPECIALLY if its just mindless yardage with terrible technique, could be much better spent improving the bike and run.
Hi, Ed. I'm new to EN as well, but have worked with Rich in a prior life, and his advice on swimming is largely spot-on. In the interests of full disclosure, I have a swimming background and don't swim much, even during the racing season, unless I am doing an 'A' Oly race, since there the swim may matter vs your AG/peer competitors more than in other distances.
That said, consider pethaps a few ideas below for the focus block, if you have gotten all you can out of technique. If not, then work on technique until you're efficient and can swim your race distance comfortably continuously.
After that, you might
- break up the distance or, better 125-150% of the distance, into managable chunks of 100s, 200s, doing them at race pace w short rest (10-15 sec?) and holding that pace.
- once shorter chunks are easier, make the blocks longer 400s or 500s or 1000s for IM, with the same idea.
- if you can do that, then try race pace or use the time trials/testing for that, and there you go.
Just my $0.02.
Tim
I am also s slow swimmer, MOP (best IM swim = 1:22). I look at the time differential between average age grouper, like myself, versus the pros.
In the swim, I could spend 80 hours a week swimming and the maximum race time improvement I may incur is around 25-30min, improving to what the average pro swims in an IM.
On the bike, the time differential between pros and avg age grouped is closer 1:30, sometimes up to 2 hours.
On the run, time differential is about 1:00 - 1:15
My goal is a have a faster triathlon time. With that goal, where do you think I have the most potential/opportinuty to close the gap? With limited training time, my training ROI is primarily focused on the bike and run. At the end of the day, it depends on your goal. You want a faster swim leg of a triathlon or a faster overall triathlon finishing time?
Sorry... didn't mean to be insulting at all about "beginners". What I meant is that at some of those Masters teams, they are rock hard serious swimmer types and anyone who wasn't a very good HS swimmer would be considered a "beginner". I used a bad term. At my local pool, I'm among the faster of the people who aren't "real swimmers", but there's a huge gap between me and my cohort and those guys. I would be a "beginner" at their workouts if they were a team. Like I said, though, it's my impression that the range of skills varies with different masters groups. You'd just want one where there was technique coaching for the not-as-fast-folks as much as just workout facilitation. That's all I meant.
William: No worries, I wasn't offended, but thought I'd clarify my level, in case that changed your input any. I doubted the comments would change - but I appreciate your clarification. Yes, in a tru masters class I would be considered a beginner. FYI: Right now I've got some underwater swim video's that are being analyzed by a coach who will give me some 1-1 feedback. Hope his feedback helps, I'm sure it will.
I have not read the replies to this thread, but my .02.
I am a swimmer born and bred. I was terrified of taking a break from swimming in the winter - and was one of my biggest beefs with the EN koolaid.
This winter I was forced to miss several months of swimming due to foot surgery. Within 7 weeks of swimming I swam within 60 seconds or so of my Olympic swim split in a rough as hell St. Anthony's swim.
I'm a trial member (still not sure if this is the kool-aid for me) and started out as a slow swimmer (first HIM ~45'). I have no swimming background at all. After 3-4 seasons of triathlon, my swims improved quite a bit (~31' for HIM; sub 1:10 for IM--could go ~1:05 if I could avoid the mosh pit). Best of all, the swim no longer freaks me out. This is due primarily to improved technique. Although I agree that the ROI is lowest for swimming, I feel the return is worth the investment (assuming you are willing to invest the extra time). This doesn't mean mindless yardage of course. I have had numerous 1:1 lessons but had trouble finding decent coaches. I learned a lot by reading, focusing on form for part of every workout (i.e. warm up and cool down at least) and watching lots of video of myself (you can get a good, new underwater video camera for the price of ~4 lessons).
If I do join EN, I will continue the swimming. This is not because a will lose anything but because swimming reminds me of why I do this sport. I don't always enjoy swimming and it is definitely my weakest discipline. Because I want to be the best triathlete I can be, swim training fulfills part of that desire. If you hate it and/or it takes you away from other activities or responsibilities, then swimming should go before biking or running. Otherwise, what's the harm in setting the alarm for 'too #@!! early' and spend some quality time in the chlorine with your favorite pull buoy/kick board/fins and enjoy some tunes on your swimP3!
Just the way I see it...
Apple A, Apple C, open text file, Apple V, save...for when the inevitable "EN doesn't allow swimming in the off season!!!" thread comes up on ST
I'll second (third? fourth? 105th?) what everyone else has said here. The one thing to think about is that if your IM swim time is > ~1:20, then you won't find an online program for improving your swim better than what Coach Rich offers in the Swim e-Book. For people that want a big ROI on their swimming, 1-1 coaching is the very best option, because you NEED that feedback from someone who can watch you swim and fix your stroke. If you have the technique to swim 1:20 then you'll find that with the workouts Rich includes, your fitness will be there even if you don't start swimming until 3 months out from your race.