Power Meter vs. Fast wheelset

stevehiatt

I realize this question could cause some controversy but I want to hear both sides:

Question:  For an Ironman distance race would it be better to race with a significant heavier, mildly aero wheelset  that accompanies a power meter or to race without a power meter with an significantly lighter and aggressively aero wheelset?  Keep in mind the scenario involves one of IM's hilliest courses and the athlete has a heart rate monitor.  What do you think?

mancona

You will probably get a pretty consistant answer here. For any ironman, you are better off with a heavier wheel set with a power meter. Rich will tell you to sell your rear race wheel, and get a solid training wheel with a power meter and wheel cover. Many EN team members have followed this advice and had significantly better significantly better races because of it. I would not even consider racing an IM with out a power meter now.

Of course if can/want to have both by all means do as there are great options out there for crank based power meters.

mgraffeo

The often ignored consideration here is "when is it faster to have a heavier wheel?"

1. If you're holding relatively steady speeds
2. If you're not starting from a dead stop
3. If you're not going uphill

or, put another way, any time you're not accelerating, a heavier wheel is faster.  This is the thought process behind the active spoke www.activespoke.com/ . 

Most IM courses (even the hilly ones) have lots of long, flat-to-rolling stretches, and downhills on the other side of the uphills.  I haven't done the math, but I'd guess that the heavier wheel is probably an advantage on most IM courses, if not all...

Mike

 

Kitboo

ANY wheel with a powermeter is better---even if it's a plastic wheel from a kid's tricycle.

Kevin Walter

 If you are considering the power meter, I would go with a crank based PM as others suggest. I think Quarq is the way to go. It is comparable to the PowerTap in terms of price. I have both PT and SRM and generally like the SRM better. The Quarq is basically the same guts as an SRM at 1/3 the price so if I were in the market now would definitely get the Quarq. PT is great too, don't get me wrong.

Chris G

 Wheels are not fast, people are fast.  People with power meters may actually be slower but then tend to actually run later on. You will be much better off racing with a PM assuming of course that you know how to use it and actually follow the plan.

Another thing to consider is the standing EN rule that if you are caught choosing to use a non PM race wheel over your PM to save weight or for whatever reason, Rich will show up at your house and kick you in the nuts.  He claims to be able to be anywhere in the country within 24 hours.  As his wife works for an airline I have no reason to doubt him.  I am not kidding about this, he has posted it on several occasions.

If you are losing sleep over this either get a crank based PM or build your PT into a fancy race wheel.  Mine is in an 808 but really only because I am very shallow and feel better about myself for having Zipp wheels.  It is likely no different than any other PT wheel with a cover but does look very cool.

mgraffeo

Posted By Chris G on 04 Dec 2009 08:40 AM

 Mine is in an 808 but really only because I am very shallow and feel better about myself for having Zipp wheels.  It is likely no different than any other PT wheel with a cover but does look very cool.

 

Chris, given the number of times I've seen you say this or something like it over the last year or so, I must say, I admire your self awareness and comfort with who you are.

Mike

 

NavyTriGuy

Posted By Chris G on 04 Dec 2009 08:40 AM

  Mine is in an 808 but really only because I am very shallow and feel better about myself for having Zipp wheels.  It is likely no different than any other PT wheel with a cover but does look very cool.

 

My PT is in a ZIPP 404. WHen I bought my bike I had just returned from Iraq, had no knowledge of PMs or aero wheels and so bought the cool looking wheels. That's the only reason I kept 'em!

Chris G

Posted By Michael Graffeo on 04 Dec 2009 08:56 AM

Posted By Chris G on 04 Dec 2009 08:40 AM

 Mine is in an 808 but really only because I am very shallow and feel better about myself for having Zipp wheels.  It is likely no different than any other PT wheel with a cover but does look very cool.

 

Chris, given the number of times I've seen you say this or something like it over the last year or so, I must say, I admire your self awareness and comfort with who you are.

Mike

 A man has to know his limitations...

 

Linda Patch

Posted By Stephen Hiatt on 03 Dec 2009 08:33 PM

I realize this question could cause some controversy 

 

No controversy here. Power Meter, period. If you choose to race with a wheelset over a PM DELIBERATELY, Rich will pull you off the bike mid-race and kick you in the nutz. I am almost not kidding. Search this topic in the 3.0 forum. TONS of stuff there. I think the EN manual has the philosophy laid out clearly. And, seriously, there are good reasons why. Research here and read the reasons.

Power meter only, or PM and wheels. That's the end of the EN story.

 

 

 

 

 

gilliatt

 I realize this question could cause some controversy but I want to hear both sides

You are gonna get the power meter answer here, it is how we do business (race) end of story.  I don't think you'll get to hear both sides here....the good news we are pretty much all on the same page.

 

Coach Rich

Do you have to have a powermeter to train and race inside Endurance Nation?

No, absolutely not.

But if you have race wheels, we are going to strongly encourage you to sell the back and buy a PM with the dough.

We will always recommend the highest value setup. I ride weekly with the largest PT dealer in the world. I could get any wheel I want for cost. I ride on $150 training wheels with a gillion miles on them. I just don't get bling wheels, I'm going to try to talk you out of a sexy setup that you don't need (just ask members who've tried), but it's your money.

But if you do have a PM, and I found you raced a HIM or longer without it, you will be instantly excommunicated from the Team and if I find you on the course I'm going to punch you as hard as I can in the nutz. That's a promise .

Al Truscott

There may be one argument for putting a PT into a fancy race wheel: If one already has the fancy race wheel AND one participates in races which do not allow discs (Kona, Coz). At least that's the excuse I'm giving myself.

stevehiatt

I was expecting something different such as the pros and cons listed for clinchers verses tubulars as listed in one of the EN Manuals. However, I know the foundation principle backing the power meter as it is a direct measure of your cycling output. Heart rate monitors are an indirect measure and for the long distances things such as cardiac drift etc. come into play throwing off the HR as a good indicator for effort. I'm still worried about the weight issue and compromised aerodynamics but at the same time I can clearly see the wisdom of a power meter for direct measure of effort on race day on a long brutal ride. If I could only afford the Zipp disc with the lighter PM $

I appreciate the feedback and thoughts from all of you veteran members. I've seen most of you here and there around the haus on various posts. It's great to have this type of community support.

Rich you sound pretty convincing

John Stark

Stephen, you won't find weight-weenies in EN like you get in other groups. Just straight up quantifiable data.  And look at the wind tunnel data on the time saving of riding with Zipps or equivalent vs.a 30 mm deep or even a Mavic Open Pro.  The ROI is like $300 per minute.  $85 for a wheel cover to get the same benefit is a deal. 

 

Tomer T

 I rather ride a bike made of beer cans with power meeter then riding a fancy TT machine without one.

(BTW, Chrissie Wellington doesn't use PM and Macca does't race with PM but that's really irrelevant )

David Flint

x 2 what Tomer said, sort of:



Maybe a slightly different tack - and from my recent cycling only background - the first thing to upgrade on a bike is the wheels (rotating mass/weight where it counts etc) then other rotating parts.

With that rationale, I'd vote for spending less on a TT frame and more on your wheels and powermeter - don't see much point folks racing a Cervelo P3/4 around with a Open-Pro/disc cover when you could buy a Planet-X frame or similar (if it fits of course) on a set of Zipps with a powermeter.

Mebbe a different take on things............

pcleveland

Something else to consider is that on a windy course like COZ or Kona even wheels like Flashpoint 60's or Zipp 404's are going to cause you to be pushed across the rode in a strong croswind. At COZ this year I opted to just use my Mavic Open Pro wheels because that is what PM is laced into and it was a great choice. The backside of the couse has a 10 Mile Stretch with a 16-20 mph crosswind. The people who had the fancy wheels on were getting pushed completely across the rode. I noticed no difference in my time and having the PM was a blessing because I got to the run feeling good and many others I saw were trashed after the bike.

Phil C

Nemo Brauch

If you really really gotta have fancy race wheels, you can always rent them with a PT (at most major IM's anyway) from Race Day Wheels.



I'm a card carying l'il peep. 500 grams extra on my bike has a bigger impact to me than 500 grams on Chris Malone's bike (sorry dude- it's your b-day so I'm picking on you!). But there is no way in hell I'd do an Ironman without my powertap wheel. Would I like to have a lighter setup? Sure! But I won't trade weight for power.

Coach Rich

I say again:

Any TeamEN member with a powermeter found to be racing with fancy race wheels and NO powermeter, will be kicked in the nutz upon crossing the finishline.

Nemo Brauch

Posted By Rich Strauss on 08 Jan 2010 09:41 AM

I say again:

Any TeamEN member with a powermeter found to be racing with fancy race wheels and NO powermeter, will be kicked in the nutz upon crossing the finishline.

 

Or the ovaries if applicable

charris

Interesting you would mention 500 grams, since I coincidentally read a thread on ST yesterday (I'm going to need therapy soon) that discussed the effects (based on modelling) of adding 500 grams to your bike.

Summary?  For a 6 hour IMC ride, it would add 34 seconds.  Adding *11 fricking pounds* would mean ~5.5min slower.

Thread here:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum....ply;so=ASC

 

Here an interesting quote from the discussion:

"one extra pound on the bike on the Canada course is roughly equivalent to an increase in wind resistance of 15 grams of drag force. If you asked someone whether they would prefer to ride with one extra pound on their bike or with a pencil attached somewhere to their bike or helmet perpendicular to the air flow, most people's intuition or experience would tell them to choose the pencil. And yet it would slow them down about the same amount as the extra pound of weight would."

Coach Rich

Here an interesting quote from the discussion:

"one extra pound on the bike on the Canada course is roughly equivalent to an increase in wind resistance of 15 grams of drag force. If you asked someone whether they would prefer to ride with one extra pound on their bike or with a pencil attached somewhere to their bike or helmet perpendicular to the air flow, most people's intuition or experience would tell them to choose the pencil. And yet it would slow them down about the same amount as the extra pound of weight would."

 

And this is why we here think about things like the straws on aerobottles, ie, go to Ace Hardware or an aquarium supply store, buy some flexible tubing and use it as a straw, to it stays out of the wind. $.10 solution.

Bill McKinney

 I just hope I'm at the finish line when the inevitable soul with fancy wheels, no PM, and an EN jersey cruises into the transition, dismounts and then gets kicked in the nutz...now that would be a YouTube video that would get the Nation some attention!

mattsull

I did IMWI in '08 before EN. I used an LSD program with no power. Lots of long slow rides. I rode a blistering 6:48 bike split with a fancy set of Zipp 404's. Probably gained a minute with those. Needless to say I've since sold them. I rode 2:31 at Racine last year with my PT and a wheelcover with my stock training wheel in the front. Good times!

Eric Rueppel

I for one won't be getting kicked in the nuts in Wisconsin this year.

Chris G

Considering that Rich is riding with a hand gun these days the penalty might now be different

charris

Similarly, I can appreciate the importance of weight for the run - this reminded me of the time I missed a BQ by 19 seconds and ultimately decided, for mental health reasons, that it was because I wore clothing that was too heavy.

 

The morning of the race, it was overcast and raining, so I went with a slightly thicker shirt instead of my usual one.  I also decided on wearing a hat, which I don't usually do.  Turns out I didn't need either as the weather improved.

 

I jokingly mentioned to someone afterwards that 19 seconds meant I needed to lose 1/3 of a pound, so I literally got out the kitchen scale and weighed this stuff.

 

The heavy shirt was 171 grams, the light shirt was 95.  So 76 grams there.  The hat was 61 grams, so the lighter shirt and no hat would have saved me 179 grams.

 

They say that 1 pound is about 2 seconds per mile.  So 179/453=.39 of a pound. .39*52.4=20.4 seconds.  FML.

 

And yes, I knew how close I was and desperately tried to HTFU - I just didn't quite have it that day.

 

Got it the next time (I wore the lighter shirt and no hat just in case!)

Bill McKinney

Posted By Craig Harris on 14 Jan 2010 03:46 PM

Similarly, I can appreciate the importance of weight for the run - this reminded me of the time I missed a BQ by 19 seconds and ultimately decided, for mental health reasons, that it was because I wore clothing that was too heavy.

 

The morning of the race, it was overcast and raining, so I went with a slightly thicker shirt instead of my usual one.  I also decided on wearing a hat, which I don't usually do.  Turns out I didn't need either as the weather improved.

 

I jokingly mentioned to someone afterwards that 19 seconds meant I needed to lose 1/3 of a pound, so I literally got out the kitchen scale and weighed this stuff.

 

The heavy shirt was 171 grams, the light shirt was 95.  So 76 grams there.  The hat was 61 grams, so the lighter shirt and no hat would have saved me 179 grams.

 

They say that 1 pound is about 2 seconds per mile.  So 179/453=.39 of a pound. .39*52.4=20.4 seconds.  FML.

 

And yes, I knew how close I was and desperately tried to HTFU - I just didn't quite have it that day.

 

Got it the next time (I wore the lighter shirt and no hat just in case!)

So if you're really worried about time, you're saying that the perfect race outfit is what these guys are rollin':

Begging the obvious question from 2008:  "euro or badass"?  Anyone got a guess?

Al Truscott

Euors with snorkels??