Need Some Help Planning Run Focus - All Input Appreciated
OK, I say this every year . . . . but this is really the year I want work on my run. It is by far my weakness and looking for some help. Here goes . . . .
My 5k pace currently is 8:15 ish and I got down to 7:32ish during OS in 2009. My 2009 IM CdA run was 4:55, or 11:17 pace with an overall race time of 12:54:32. With that said. . . . .
I need help with ideas for putting together a run focused OS and much of 2011 leading to IMAZ next November where I want to go sub-12 hours. My only events on the calendar so far are a half marathon in February 2011, a HIM in September 2011 and the IMAZ in November 2011. I will start OS officially in January, but plan to do the run intervals only starting October OS until the start of January OS.
Regarding body comp, I am 6' 4" and currently at 207 lbs (was at 204/206 for IM last year) and working to go sub 200 lbs. by end of this year. The lowest I have been since college. Body fat is @ ~ 22% and is dropping with body weight.
A couple of questions for you running WSM's, et al:
- Since I have most of 2011 until IMAZ, should I drop a marathon in my calendar somewhere? To be honest, I have never run a good stand alone marathon (always have issues) and the thought of training for one again doesn't sound appealing. But will do it if suggested.
- Looking at last years OS plans, there are only two or three run days. If this years OS is similar and I do OS runs from October - January start, what should I do/add to augment/add to get the frequency up to 5 run days?
- What have you done in the past to get your run up to where you wanted it?
- Any and all feedback is appreciated.
Thanks,
John
Comments
John, I've been struggling with this myself, and received great advice and input in this thread.
To your questions:
1. 'No' to a Marathon. The recovery cost is just too great, and the build up would compromise other stuff. Instead, try to find a few half marathons to plunk in the calendar (the run coach I have started work with has suggested this, despite her bent for middle distances).
2. My approach to frequency is, for the time being and the 'pre-OS' run block, M-easy, T-VO2Hard, W-Easy, Thurs-Tempo, Fri-Easy, Sat-easy/bike, Sun-Long with lots-o HMP. If I wanted to make this 5d/week, I'd probably drop the Sat and Mon runs.
3. My approach to increasing volume via frequency DURING OS will probably be adding Monday and Friday runs, but I haven't thought trough what flavour these need to be.
-Dave
Since our out-season philosophy is to "get fast" rather than go long, perhaps a base to look at for a run-block in the outseason is a Jack Daniels 5K training plan. (Maybe 10K, too). I have not looked at these in tossing this suggestion out there, and neither am I saying you should follow it exactly. However, if you are talking about running more and cycling less (and not swimming at all) for some period of time with the goal of getting faster, then something LIKE that might be a good starting point.
BTW, I did the Boston Marathon this year, giving it a good hard go. I know that's not what you're talking about, but you ARE talking a spring marathon I assume. Bottom line is that after Jan 1, I was only cycling a couple times a week, and for 4-5 weeks, the cycling was basically just maintenance (during taper and recovery). I don't regret having done it at all, but for the TRIATHLETE, I think the conventional wisdom here that half mary's are a much more appropriate target is correct. No need for the super long/hard runs that make the next day recovery, shorter taper, and much less recovery time. Plus, the fact is that you run them faster...and the outseason is supposed be about going fast. :-) Even though I've only done one IM, I can add my voice to those who say that the open marathon and the IM marathon are not as closely related as you'd think.
You're a bigger guy like me and maybe running 2 marathons in a year isn't the best idea. I say this as I have my ankle wrapped up and elevated with some tendinitis from training for a full marathon. I think running the half distance is better as you can still race it and as William had stated the recovery time is much better for that distance as well.
I think William and Dave have some good advice there for how to tweak your plan. Only thing I would add is to do some track work with faster guys. When your buddy Tom is healed up chase him around the track. Better yet get him before he's healed so you can win!
John,
I will build on what Dave and William have suggested. I agree that marathon is not the answer. Here is the order of things:
1. Body comp first priority=free speed, 22% is a tad much, have to come down much lower, running speed benefits instantly,
also less injury risk with longer or faster running.
2. You should be after lifting the pace at threshold, assuming you have established 25-35mi/week as norm. Training for 5k
would help you here the most.
3. Once you bring down your 5k time and elevate VDOT number, it is time you put a half marathon on the calendar. Half
marathon training can than have a direct implication on your marathon performance, while providing you with relatively
low recovery cost.
I think that high mileage required to train for marathon would only give you an option of long and slow running and that is the kind of a runner it will create. With that mileage and your body comp, you risk a lot more if you were to introduce serious speed work.
There are also plenty of people who thrive on 60-80mi/week of slow running. Is that for you? You have to answer it to yourself, but that is a lot of time spent running only.
This is just my 2 cents and I am no expert. There are smarter and faster runners here to chime in.
John-
I have been relatively quiet in the forums as I have been working on the run. Yes, I have a fall marathon on my calendar and IMSG is my A race for next year! Don't want Rich kicking me in the nuts!
Reasoning is simple.....
For the same reason Rich has been applying some ninja like training to bike I have been doing likewise to run. Been doing tempo, track workouts, trail and some long runs. Not telling anyone when my mary is, but will post race report.
I work for a running shoe company and am not feeling pressured to do a mary other than I have not done a stand alone mary since 1992. Need to see what I can do. That being said...I am having a hard time not doing some small tri's an spending some time on the bike which is wrecking my recovery days!
I think with IMAZ in 11 as your goal race you could spend some 8-12 weeks in a serious run build and then roll it into OS and then full IM plan.
I would...
Pick a mary, give yourself a 12-16 week build and crush it. Recover for a couple weeks and then get on the ponies!
Thanks, guys! Really appreciate the feedback!
My thoughts on a marry was June time frame after OS and before 12 week IM Plan starts. But I really don't want to run one. Bad juju from the past still haunts me. I actually had my best marry at IM CdA last year in regards to completing without any issues. My initial thought is to do 5k, 10k and halfs and when April/May rolls around I will make the call. Whatcha think?
@Bryan - Thanks for the feedback. One word: Camarillo. Am I correct?
@ Aleksander - I am the King of Slow Twitch. :-) I can run really, really far . . . really, really slow. I have run ultr'as up to 100k's, slowly. I want to now see if I can run faster. And I am working hard on my body comp. Eating almost all clean and shooting for sub-200 lbs. by January 1st. I will be taking a Body Pod test next week to check my body fat percentage. I am hoping I have lost at least 1% since last test.
@Tucker - Thanks. I am now starting to look for 5k and 10k's between now and the half on February to keep me motivated. And I never thought about the fact that it would be 2 marathons in one year. OUCH!
@Dave - thanks and I am laying out my run schedule today. Not sure I can mentally do 7 days in a row for weeks. I do best with a rest day or two. But if i schedule 5 days with an optional 6th, that may work.
@William - Totally spaced on the Daniel's stuff. Went to Tom Glynn's last night and got the Daniel's book from him. I think I am going to modify it a bit and run 5 days with optional 6th and and do Phase 1 in 4 weeks instead of 6 since so I can get some speed work started. My "base" is already intact so I will spend the next 4 weeks running at @ ;LRP (Daniel's E with an L) and do some fun trail runnings (actually meandoring) and run ~ 45 minutes per day and let the weekly mileage be what it is for those first 4 weeks. Somewhere around 25, I think.
I see a Plan coming together. Thanks for the great feedback.
Anyone else?
1) commit to becoming a runner. eat/sleep/think like a runner.
2) get lean fast. it's the number 1 return on investment in your run training...not eating.
3) set frequent goals...I like the multiple 13.1 races as you'll have plenty of targets to shoot for.
4) have a daily flex / self care routine that you start same day as run focus, do not deviate. this will pay off huge long term for you. focus on hip flexibility for sure.
5) be social...as many runs with others as possible. save the fast stuff for solo workouts when you can have snot coming out of your nose, etc.
I am excited to see what you can do!
P
John,
An important piece I'm learning (I'm on this run-specific gig a few weeks ahead of you, let me be the canary in the coal mine here) is the older you get, the more critical it is for a long, deep warmup before the quality stuff. I had 400s today and it was probably 40 minutes before I actually started the 'fast' running.
From your avatar pic, you're, what, early to mid-20's? Anyhow, thought this might apply someday.
@Dave - Thanks, I really need to do more warm up before I run. Us old dudes need the extra time. :-)
@Marianne - Should I run tomorrow?
Thanks.
@Patrick - Downloaded the "29 Running Tips" Marathon Nation ebook. Good stuff. Will start with Cadence tomorrow. And you also gave me the freedom to think about running and little else. I have 3+ month before OS starts for me and will now just ride and swim for recovery and fun. But run, run, run. I am also excited to see what I can do.
Thanks again everyone.
OK, here is what I am looking at for the next couple of months:
10/10 - 5k and make it my initial vDot test
10/24 - 10k and make it a baseline for future 10k's that I will do in 2011
11/14 - Big Sur Half marathon. Baseline for February half marry
12/4 - 5k for vDot test #2
2/6 - Surf City Half Marathon
Haven;t found anything for January yet, but I am sure there are a couple.
Thoughts? Too much?
John,
I will see you at the Surf City event (Shhhhhh I am a legacy Pacific Shoreline/Surf City Marathon runner so I want to keep my string intact). I usually cycle from my house (Murrieta) to Huntington Beach which is about 70 miles on Saturday to the race packet pickup. Then I meet my wife with our Lab Retrievers at the Dog Beach for a "family" day. We stay at a dog friendly motel and while I am running the dogs get to go back to the dog beach and play.
As far as advice, I was going to advise getting back on some trails for some hill work. Build up the hip flexors and quads on some long steep hills and descents. You are like me on the trails-not fast but if you feed us and water us, we can go for a long way. I am still mad because at IMCDA, I saw your American River 50 jacket and had "jacket envy". I did the AR50 several times in the 90s and after seeing your jacket went back this year and completed it with NO long training. It wasn't pretty or fast but it is amazing what you can do on trails. But with you being a bigger ultra runner you do have to be careful. But you have been around long enough when you get a little burned out running on the roads, it is time to hit reconnect with the trails.